Future Duel Packs--your thoughts? (Part 1)

[Diamondback]

As an informal research project inspired by another thread, I thought I'd open some research, polling and discussion about the idea future Duel Packs, since my long-standing wish for Deluxe-style "Sampler Boxes" appears to be DOA.

First question, IF Ares were open to them would you want the Duel Pack concept expanded across the entire line?

Second question, would we rather have Duels in matched (scout vs. scout) or opposed (scout vs. tandem) pairs?

Third question... on the all-scout releases, how do we want them paired?

Here's where we are so far, and the possibilities...

Series	Entente A/C	CP A/C	Existing/Possible DP's (existing bold)
1	SPAD XIII Sopwith Camel	Albatros D.V Fokker Dr.I	Sopwith Camel vs. Fokker Dr.I Albatros D.V vs. SPAD XIII
2	Sopwith Snipe AIRCO DH.4	Fokker D.VII LFG Roland C.II	Snipe vs. D.VII and DH.4 vs. Roland -OR- Snipe vs. Roland and D.VII vs. DH.4
3	Nieuport 17 RAF RE8	Albatros D.III UFAG C.I	Nieuport vs. Albatros and RE8 vs. UFAG -OR- Nieuport vs UFAG and Albatros vs. RE8
4	RAF SE5a Breguet Br.14	Pfalz D.III Rumpler C.IVc	SE5a vs. Rumpler and Br.14 vs Pfalz -OR- SE5a vs Pfalz and Br.14 vs. Rumpler
5	Morane-Saulnier Type N AIRCO DH.2	Fokker E.III Halberstadt D.III	Type N vs. E.III and DH.2 vs D.III -OR- Type N vs. D.III and DH.2 vs E.III
6	Sopwith Tripe Hanriot HD1	Aviatik D.I SSW D.III	Tripe vs. Aviatik and HD1 vs. SSW -OR- Tripe vs. SSW and HD1 vs Aviatik
7	SPAD VII Bristol F2B	Albatros D.II Halberstadt CL.II	Brisfit vs Albatros and SPAD vs Halberstadt -OR- SPAD vs Albatros and Brisfit vs Halberstadt
8	Nieuport 28 Macchi M.5	Fokker E.V Hannover CL.IIIa	Nieuport vs. Hannover and Fokker vs. Macchi -OR- Nieuport vs. Fokker and Hannover vs Macchi

This is only to brainstorm what the market MIGHT support--if all you've got to say is peeing-in-the-Wheaties about "doubt they'll do it" kindly go crap in somebody else's thread. Also, let's save pilot discussions for a follow-up thread, we've got enough to deal with in this one as it is. Not to get premature with the Clue-by-Fours, but some folks around here aren't real good at following directions or even simple reasonable requests... Don't like the "ground rules" in my thread, start your own--that's not really a lot to ask, is it?

[fast.git]

Some initial thoughts... scout vs. scout pairs feels like they'd be more popular with consumers than two-seater vs. two-seater pairs. Snipe v. D.VII strikes me as more marketable than does Roland C.II v. DH.4. Of course, then we might be left with a ton of extra two-seaters (sound familiar?).

From an entry point perspective, I'm not certain that an Albatros D.III vs. R.E.8 is a viable option... at least out of the box.

In this hypothetical situation you've set up, would there be any cross-release duel packs? Or just within release as you've listed above?

Hmm. I'll give this some thought. Thanks for the thread DB.

[LOOP]

Well 2 scoutpairs that pop up is N17 vs Alb DIII and SPAD VII vs Alb DII.
And for scouts vs tandems: Alb DIII vs RE8 and Fok DVII vs DH4.

[Diamondback]

I was thinking just to keep it "within release" for ease of logistics--and thinking a consistent format of either "light v. light and heavy v. heavy" or "light vs. heavy" would simplify the Supply Chain Management. Pick one or the other, they only need to design one new package--both, that's twice the workload.

[fast.git]

I was thinking just to keep it "within release" for ease of logistics--and thinking a consistent format of either "light v. light and heavy v. heavy" or "light vs. heavy" would simplify the Supply Chain Management. Pick one or the other, they only need to design one new package--both, that's twice the workload.

Agreed. Okay, I'll stick within those constraints and think on it.

[zenlizard]

Again, I'm a much bigger fan of early/mid-war stuff than later. The series 5 match-ups look very good.

[Diamondback]

The main point with the table was illustrating what DP's for each series would look like under the two possible matchup scenarios.

Mainly trying to figure out how to add more options for collectors and new players using existing assets with minimal cost...

[Flying Helmut]

I was thinking just to keep it "within release" for ease of logistics--and thinking a consistent format of either "light v. light and heavy v. heavy" or "light vs. heavy" would simplify the Supply Chain Management. Pick one or the other, they only need to design one new package--both, that's twice the workload.

With that in mind, some of the pairings don't make the cut; Sopwith Tripe vs SSW? I doubt they ever met. Even worse for the two-seaters; DH4 vs Roland C.II? Hannover CLIIIa vs Macchi?

Having said that, some pairs DEFINITELY work, like SE5a vs Pfalz DIII.

For overall desirability amongst the general playing population, I personally think that keeping to scout vs scout is the best idea; two-seaters are an acquired taste, with extra rules all their own, and joe public might not choose them as readily as they would the single-seaters.

[Naharaht]

I think that too many different Duel Packs could be counter-productive. It would be better to have a continuous supply of a few types to allow new players into the game rather than waiting for the development of new editions.

[grumpybear]

I think a continuous release of older models and new issues at least once a year would be better for new players as well as older ones . I myself wouldn't mind some SE5a's etc. don't need Plafz but other people do . So I think single release with possible add on perts would be better.

[Hedeby]

I agree with David - the Duel packs are a great way to get new players into the game - and all personal preferences aside what will bring in the new punters are the tried and tested ones i.e. Camel vs. DR.1, I think SE5a vs Albatross would also be a crowd pleaser.
An early war one might also be appealing, so a Nieuport vs. Albatross D.II (or III), or DH2 vs. Eindecker - keep it simple but MOST IMPORTANTLY make sure that they are produced in sufficient numbers !!!

The biggest problem for me isn't necessarily the range its the lack of availability

[cptncc1701d]

One thing I would like to see is Duel Packs for WGS.

WGF is well established now but for some reason Ares hasn't put as much effort into their WW2 system. I am sure that many people would also be attracted to WW2 aerial warfare.

[Biggles downunder]

I agree that scout v scout would probably be most appealing from a sales perspective and I also agree that some early war pairings would be nice to see.

[OldGuy59]

I'd be very happy with the classic Fokker Dr.1vs Sopwith Camel combo, as a starter set. Perhaps one each of an early and late war set would be nice, but that wouldn't be a necessity to provide an inexpensive, self-contained set for beginners. The existing set(s) cover the first four maneuver decks, and the main damage deck, with access to basic and standard rules. Pretty nice way to introduce someone to the game, and the reason it is my preferred prize for hosting games at cons where there are no current players.

[Stumptonian]

Having said that, some pairs DEFINITELY work, like SE5a vs Pfalz DIII.

That's the pair I was thinking.
Or maybe the Nieuport/Albatros

Something the average 'punter' would be familiar with.

[David Manley]

I can see some of the single seater pairings working well. Two seaters not so much. And the Macchi doesn't really pair with anything at this point. Personally I'd tend to go for the iconic pairings, and make sure at least one set was available at all times

[redcoon2]

Was lucky enough several years ago to snag Deluxe Sets (French & American versions). Sensibly, grabbed multiple copies which I still possess. Agree those would be a great intro method with the basic fighters available in both war eras...keeping them constantly available would be a dream.

But dreams....so, on question #1...it should be feasible to expand across the full line (again in both WW1 & WW2) with some consideration to the "most likely to continue generating sales".

Question #2 ...while tandems have a needed place in combat scenarios the "bang for your buck" argument leans strongly in the direction of fighters only.

Question #3...fighter match ups would probably hold best sales/repeateability in early, mid and mid-late war scenarios...can't personally find much rationale for anything with Snipe or Fokker EV fighters...their actual time in combat was virtually non existent.

Snipe was only sent to 4 squadrons, saw combat in two of the four, virtually all recorded kills were vs Fokker DVII's(25), one LVG and one balloon. One famous combat was William Barker's encounter on October 27, 1919 vs approximately 60 Fokker DVII's...Victoria Cross, while test flying it. Fifty planes were delivered in late August, first combat mission was Sept 24, first confirmed kill was Sept.27...thus in actual combat use for 45 days.

Fokker EV (DVIII) was somewhat earlier, delivered mid April of 1918 but grounded within a few days after a wing ripped apart...did not rejoin combat status until October 24...thus in combat less that three full weeks.

Anyway, think the expanded dual pack offerings is a fine idea if given proper thought and FOLLOW THRU.

[Dan-Sam]

One thing I would like to see is Duel Packs for WGS.

WGF is well established now but for some reason Ares hasn't put as much effort into their WW2 system. I am sure that many people would also be attracted to WW2 aerial warfare.

As I know, there will be released two deluxe sets soon for WGS - Battle of Britain (1H/2016?) and Battle of Midway (1H/2017?). IMHO deluxe set is much better than Duel Packs

[Diamondback]

Maybe OT, but if I were running Ares and had budget to handle the cashflow, my miniature release schedule would look something like...

1 - WGF New Series
2 - WGS Reprint
3 - SGN Special Pack
4 - WGF Accessories
5 - WGS New Series
6 - SGN Reprint
7 - WGF Special Pack
8 - WGS Accessories
9 - SGN New Series
10 - WGF Reprint
11 - WGS Special Pack
12 - SGN Accessories

Or alternatively, drop accessories as separate, piggyback onto other releases from their lines and take a month's rest at the end of each trimester.

[flash]

A scout v scout issue looks the way to go, historically matched by preference. It's unlikely that Ares would run any series that has two-seater's in as they'll end up with a glut of the tandem jobs they might find hard to move on. That seems to leave the classic series one match up, new paint jobs would improve sales, and the all scout series 5 & series 6 as possibilities. Would they be popular enough to sell as duel packs...who knows.
For preference if they did split a two-seater series then most of the scout line ups look good.

[cptncc1701d]

As I know, there will be released two deluxe sets soon for WGS - Battle of Britain (1H/2016?) and Battle of Midway (1H/2017?). IMHO deluxe set is much better than Duel Packs

Where can I find the news about these Deluxe Sets please? I searched the Ares Games News section and I didn't see any mention of this unless I missed the posting.

[Tonx]

One thing I would like to see is Duel Packs for WGS.

WGF is well established now but for some reason Ares hasn't put as much effort into their WW2 system. I am sure that many people would also be attracted to WW2 aerial warfare.

Where is that REP POINT button ... Ah, there.

Well Said Sir

Without getting controversial there has been some really woolly thinking and a lacklustre approach towards WGS as the lesser sibling of WGF ... Rubbish! It's a game in it's own right but as a result of all this WGF has been allowed to flourish whilst in the meantime WGS has been forced to go for almost two years without any new releases. However when they do appear DO THEY have an impact on the game or what? Heavy Bombers were the last excitement milestone in the WGS curriculum. Before that the first Medium Bombers appeared. So it's not all bad news. What I also find is so many people (NOT a fault) actually prefer to play both versions of the game but this requires both time and investment. Which is not really possible with a disability and unable to fly aircraft any more. Had this not gone and happened to me then my disposable income by now would have probably allowed me to play both versions of the game.

Being a former pilot I like the way WGF is more about the wind in your face and flying for your life dogfighting. However if you know how to make it that way WGS can also be about both. Then there's the Vulcan that I put into the skies of WGS to contribute to the growing creativity scene there is as supported by Shapeways and AIM. Plus Dragon Warbirds whose Vulcan (XH560) I customised as a conventional bomber.

However I had to choose and chose WGS due to the fact that I have been into my WW2 aviation seriously since 2003 - it's just PC Gaming and building kits for ten years was becoming tedious. Have been quite ardent at times in standing up for the game but never thank goodness to the point where it's become controversial - maybe a little outspoken at times.

Attracting new players into WGS alone so long as this woolly and uncreative approach and thinking continues especially from the Ares Games direction is going to be an uphill number for all of us involved. I used to run Public Demonstration Days at my LGS but then they subsequently decided to focus on other matters at roughly the same time my health took a long-term nosedive! But at the end of the day both games are stand-alone from one another (not interchangeable) and are also games in their own right ... It's just we have ended up with one very much in the shadow of the other.

[cptncc1701d]

Hi Barney,

I had a few friends express interest in WGS but hesitated to jump in because there was a limited number of released planes and no established plan by Ares to release more in a fashion comparable to WGF. I saw that another poster in this forum made mention of "Battle Of Britain" and "Battle Of Midway" Deluxe sets so maybe something is coming down the road. So far I am still scrambling to find any details on what these deluxe sets are all about.

[Tonx]

Stephen, hi hope you are well. I think the Battle of Britain and Pacific War set-ups are going to be Duel Sets as opposed to Deluxe Sets. A Dual Set with one aircraft from each side cleverly titled Duel Set but which will still require the WGS Rules and Accessories pack for a brand new player to get started with them. Deluxe Set was something Ares Games predecessor Nexus Games produced for both versions of the game which contained Rules and accessories plus four ready-to-run aircraft all together. I have the World War 2 Deluxe Set but it was obtained at a cost. Ares have done something similar for WGS only retitled World War 2 / WGS Starter Pack. Now annoyingly these are also out of production and their value if you find one is starting to accelerate.

I too have seen talk of Battle of Britain and Pacific War Duel Sets but like yourself cannot quite ascertain when these will be released. Only that they are coming ... Some day. I reckon the Battle of Britain D/S will appear first too.

Should we come across a lack of faith in WGS compared with WGF as WGS fans my first port of call is here with new players to show them just what is both possible and available given the effective way the site is divided up into sections. Given the way I came into the game I pay particular attention to the Shapeways and AIM direction of what is on offer if faced with a keen modeller whose seeking change. Or Scenarios if it's an avid PC player. There's more to see and more to do for both IMHO playing the game.

[OldGuy59]

I'd be very happy with the classic Fokker Dr.1vs Sopwith Camel combo, as a starter set. Perhaps one each of an early and late war set would be nice, but that wouldn't be a necessity to provide an inexpensive, self-contained set for beginners.

The existing set(s) cover the first four maneuver decks, and the main damage deck, with access to basic and standard rules. Pretty nice way to introduce someone to the game, and the reason it is my preferred prize for hosting games at cons where there are no current players.

[fast.git]

Pretty nice way to introduce someone to the game, and the reason it is my preferred prize for hosting games at cons where there are no current players.

This. Great way to introduce new folks to the game without requiring a costly investment... just enough to whet the appetite.

Otherwise, sounds like I'm of a similar mind to most. Scout v. scout duel packs would sell the best and those that included the iconic aircraft (the original four, plus S.E.5, Pfalz, Alb. D.III, Nieuport, etc.) would probably meet with the most approval from both the casual fan and the collector... assuming we could get some new paint schemes in these packs. Though I understand that those new to the hobby might be unhappy to have "missed" a certain scheme, new colors would appeal to both new collectors and old hands.

[SgtRock57]

My thoughts from our group. We've been able to attract new players by offering the player a chance to play as some of the names they recognize. Most are not collectors, or model builders. So, they do a little research, read some of the history. So our thoughts would be to match up some historical names and planes, as well as combining planes. For instance, a DH2 vs and DII, Hawker vs Richthofen. McCudden vs Voss, SE5a vs DRI, just to name a couple. But we find these players, after reading a little bit, want names they recognize with theirs planes. There is a number of "name" aces that haven't been touched yet, that's is what I think would be best for building out player base

[OldGuy59]

My thoughts from our group. We've been able to attract new players by offering the player a chance to play as some of the names they recognize. Most are not collectors, or model builders. So, they do a little research, read some of the history. So our thoughts would be to match up some historical names and planes, as well as combining planes. For instance, a DH2 vs and DII, Hawker vs Richthofen. McCudden vs Voss, SE5a vs DRI, just to name a couple. But we find these players, after reading a little bit, want names they recognize with theirs planes. There is a number of "name" aces that haven't been touched yet, that's is what I think would be best for building out player base

This. Most people recognize the Red Baron. Not Manfred von Richthofen, BTW. Nor Capt Arthur "Roy" Brown, either. Although, most know that the "Camel" was involved. The other existing Duel Pack is a fuzzy "Who?", even for me. So, if handing out a duel pack, it is usually the Dr.1 vs Camel that brightens eyes.

But I agree, ace names would be cool. It lets hosts dip lightly into the history that the game is based on, not some nebulous fiction of other games (where the "history" and "science" can be retconned into something completely different when a new model or edition comes out). It shows the game is based on substance, and you can research the game.

Isn't it ironic that fiction has spawned fanatical followings, and even religions, that most people study and research more than actual history? People even devote effort to learning fictional languages, rather than ones on our planet that they could use in Real Life.

[Max Von Below]

I wouldn't mind the addition of a few dual sets ( scouts v scouts ) but I'm more concerned with the lack of availability of aircraft.
I just got into the game, through a dual set, bought some more planes to add to the collection.
I have personally never seen a DH2. Fokker EIII are awol. I have never seen a SE5, either. I know there are others...
These are iconic planes of the era and I can't fly them because I came onto the scene too late.
Why is it so hard to keep them in circulation? What benefit does Ares get for not having them available to buy?
How do you keep interest in a game that parcel out game pieces so sparingly?
Doesn't it seem to make sense to have popular planes available all the time?
Is this a limited edition/collectors game?
This topic brought these questions to mind.

[Diamondback]

Greg, the problem is cash-flow... if my understanding from the inside is right, the folks at Ares would love it if they could keep everything in production all the time, but there's only so much production bandwidth and operating cash to go around.

They do plan to be more aggressive about reprinting than Nexus was, though...

[fast.git]

I have personally never seen a DH2. Fokker EIII are awol. I have never seen a SE5, either. I know there are others...
These are iconic planes of the era and I can't fly them because I came onto the scene too late.

You're absolutely correct, Greg. Ares has reprinted the first two series run by Nexus (Dr.I, Camel, SPAD S.XIII, Albatros D.Va and D.VII, Snipe, DH.4, Roland C.II), with the third in the pipeline. These are anxiously awaited by many, as the Albatros D.III (would love to see something Jasta 11 other than MvR) and Nieuport N.17 (Albert Ball, anyone?) are iconic mid-war kites. The S.E.5 was in the 4th (and final) Nexus series. We'll see these (I must believe this, as I want more) at some point, but not right away. The EW kites you mentioned (E.III and DH.2) were in Ares' first run of new planes. I imagine that they'll see a reprint at some point, so long as interest in the game continues, but it may be some time.

I'm concerned that Ares is spread rather thin, but I remain hopeful that we'll see reprints of all series (I'd even like another Pfalz or three)... as well as new series (I so want my Albatros C.III, Sopwith 1-1/2 Strutter, and Bébé)

[Diamondback]

We know that Series 3B is planned for this year, so 4B will probably be next year.

Small and agile has it virtues and time and place, but for all the balls they have to keep in the air Ares needs to grow, get bigger, take on more staff--and that means capitalization, they're probably comfortably getting by but not on anything like a lucrative profit margin. Problem is, capitalization means giving up control, whether to shareholders, bondholders or venture-capital types--though if they structured it right so the present owners kept 51-60% ownership and offered to sell shares of the remaining 40-49% I'd buy a few.

[Boney10]

From experience of putting on games at a number of shows in the Uk, the idea of a Duel pack for WW1 rather than a Delux set would be a great asset.
For vets of the game they may be looked at if different schemes inside but for the new/starting player they would be of immense use and value.
The two scout combo would be the better option here, I like the idea of a fighter /2 seater combo, but lets be honest, when starting out most just want to dogfight, so scout v scout would be better option. Being only 2 aircraft the cost should not be too excessive so as to temp in the new player, the old deluxe sets sold , in uk , for around £50 to £70 which is a lot to shell out for something you not sure of, the duel sets went for £20-£28 a bit more managable and the resell could re-coup a lot of that, so personally this is the best option.
That said I agree we dont want to flood the market with different combinations, I would prefer to see around 5 sets but always available.
These being an early set DH2 v Eindekker and N17 v Albatross D2 going into classic perios camel v Dr1, SpadXIII v Albatross DVa or SE5a v Phalz DIII and a late set Snipe v Fokker DVII
The rest left as individual purchases.
Lets hope this occurs but the real trick here is to have these always available.
Cant comment to much on WW2 as I am not a great fan, Ill play and enjoy but not as adicted as the WW1.
For Sails, well maybe a different thread on a different forum

[LOOP]

The combinations you mention Chris sounds like some good combos for a duelpack. Maybe not SE5a vs Pfalz DIII. I'd Love to see both the SE5a and the Pfalz in a duelpack. Just not against each other. A bit too unbalanced I think

[fast.git]

The combinations you mention Chris sounds like some good combos for a duelpack. Maybe not SE5a vs Pfalz DIII. I'd Love to see both the SE5a and the Pfalz in a duelpack. Just not against each other. A bit too unbalanced I think

Totally. Not difficult to imagine the disappointment felt by many German pilots when they realized that their new Pfalz D.IIIs weren't much of an improvement over their Albatros... and just a little over-matched by the newer Entente scouts (Camels, SE5s, Bristol Fighters...). At least the wings were more likely to remain attached to the aircraft when pulling out of a steep dive.

[surfimp]

SE5a vs Fokker D.VII would be a cool late war duel pack.
Nieuport 11 vs Eindecker E.III would be an amazing early war duel pack.
Hanriot HD.1 vs Aviatik D.1 would be neat for the Italian front.

All of these would be historic matchups that would be well-balanced via their respective profiles in WGF.

[zenlizard]

SE5a vs Fokker D.VII would be a cool late war duel pack.
Nieuport 11 vs Eindecker E.III would be an amazing early war duel pack.
Hanriot HD.1 vs Aviatik D.1 would be neat for the Italian front.

All of these would be historic matchups that would be well-balanced via their respective profiles in WGF.

These are all excellent suggestions, actually. I do have to wonder if they will sell to a wider audience than the historical nuts like me, though (I would seriously go for Nieuport 11/Fokker E-III).

[surfimp]

These are all excellent suggestions, actually. I do have to wonder if they will sell to a wider audience than the historical nuts like me, though (I would seriously go for Nieuport 11/Fokker E-III).

Who knows how much Wings of Glory (or any other historical wargame system) appeals to those without a historical interest... probably not much, to be honest. They probably make a beeline to X-Wing / etc.

With that said, for people looking for a neat new game system, the see-through windows and great paint schemes of the current Duel Packs - and extremely reasonable price points - have surely brought in those "history curious" types. I'm sure the same could be done for any new duel packs that might be released.

The Nieuport 11 is supposed to be part of the next wave of releases so this combination seems quite do-able based on planned and current production.

[Tonx]

I remember one debate I have had about aviation games with involved and the fact is I could not think of any that were not related to history. But let's face it just what would a modern day version of say Air Traffic Control with be like? I reckon you would be lucky to get away with using municipal / regional airports based on flying VFR cross-country flights in similarly sized recreational / light / twin engine aircraft though throwing crop-sprayers into the mix as they fly their own traffic-patterns in the USA anyway (!) and helicopters into the equation too would be fun. All communications could be via Unicom / Class E airspace or Class C for a more advanced set-up and greater mix of traffic.

Trying the same with airliners just would not work without kilometres of gaming mats and airports with converging that would just resemble car crashes! Unless of course an X-Wing system could be created to cut down on the gaming mat size but let's face it - without the conflict element there's nothing really to see or do except fly your and this could get boring for some. I never got into X-Wing - the space and ficticious factors were what dissuaded my interest in the game whereas I like a combination of aviation and fact ... With lots to see and do along the way

DISCLAIMER: No disrespect to any crop-sprayer pilots who may be Members but on the two occasions I met crop-spraying teams in SC and TX ... they did indeed fly their own visual traffic patterns and not the FAA's prescribed ones!

[LOOP]

SE5a vs Fokker D.VII would be a cool late war duel pack.
Nieuport 11 vs Eindecker E.III would be an amazing early war duel pack.
Hanriot HD.1 vs Aviatik D.1 would be neat for the Italian front.

All of these would be historic matchups that would be well-balanced via their respective profiles in WGF.

I agree. Especially the SE5a vs Fokker DVII is a match that rocks

[csadn]

First question, IF Ares were open to them would you want the Duel Pack concept expanded across the entire line?

Seems a good idea; it's the next couple questions which will determine the viability, tho'.

Second question, would we rather have Duels in matched (scout vs. scout) or opposed (scout vs. tandem) pairs?

The latter is historically accurate, but makes for less-interesting games; the 2-holers typically aren't that maneuverable, so the player gets bored easily. On that basis: I'd support "opposed" only if a viable set of solitaire rules were provided* -- the player in the fighter vs. the "drone" two-seater**. If no solitaire rules are provided, I have to go with "matched".

[*: Having tried them: No, I do not consider any of the solitaire rules provided on this forum to be "viable".]
[**: Aside: I am reminded of a line from one of FASA's "duel" _Star Trek_ games: "SHOT DOWN BY THE DRONE? Don't tell anyone!"]

Third question... on the all-scout releases, how do we want them paired?

Honestly: I'd forego historical accuracy, and divide units by relative maneuverability and firepower. Let's face it -- WW1 air power was a "tennis match", the "ball" of superiority bouncing back and forth with nauseating regularity; applying this to Duel Packs would be Historically Accurate, but skull-crushingly uninteresting for the weaker party.

[Naharaht]

I fear that the key to viability will be the sets of moulds for the models and keeping the situation simple. I do not think that Ares will want to adopt a 'Mix and Match' approach nor have to rewrite the rules in the Starter Set boxes for two-seaters or B-deck firing single seaters, nor have some Starter sets with A damage decks only, some with B damaged decks only and some with A damage decks and B damage decks together.

[Diamondback]

Some historical ace-vs-ace duels we might consider:

--23 Nov 16 MvR Alb. D.II vs Hawker DH2 (just re-run and repack existing minis)
--20 Dec 16 " vs Arthur Knight DH2 (Knight would be a new paint and card)
--27 Dec 16 " vs James McCudden DH2 (ditto)
--12 Aug 17 MIck Mannock Ni.23 vs Joaquim von Bertrab Alb. D.V
--23 Jun 17 MvR Alb. D.V vs Robert Farquhar SPAD VII
--24 Jun 17 " vs McNaughton & Mearns DH4
--27 Mar 18 MvR Fok. Dr.I vs Thomas Sharpe Sop. Camel
--06 Apr 18 " vs Sydney Smith Sop. Camel
--20 Apr 18 " vs Richard Raymond-Barker Sop. Camel
--02 Oct 18 Donald MacLaren Sop. Camel vs Sylwester Garsztka Fok. D.VII

Still trawling The Aerodrome's database...

[gully_raker]

Ernst Udet Vs Georges Gynermer would be a "Natural"!

[Diamondback]

It would... good luck figuring out exactly each was flying that day, LOL.

[LOOP]

Maybe....

23/9-17

Werner Voss Dr1 vs James McCudden SE5a

[Shadowcat]

I like series three myself, just for the plane choices alone. The Camel vs Triplane fight is getting a bit old I am afraid.

My biggest fear is it will be another short run that will not last long. Whatever they print needs to be avalible to potential new players for a bit.

[gully_raker]

It would... good luck figuring out exactly each was flying that day, LOL.

Pretty sure it was a Spad VII Vs Albatros D.II.

[Carl_Brisgamer]

Pretty sure it was a Spad VII Vs Albatros D.II.

Hi Barry,

Udet was flying an Albatros D.III and Guynemer the SPAD S.VII -

"Ltn Ernst Udet of Jasta 15, whose memoir Mein Fliegerleben included a tense account of his one-on-one dogfight with Capt Georges Guynemer on 15 June 1917, which ended with his guns jammed and Guynemer chivalrously sparing him with what Udet swore was a parting salute, did not mince words about the opposition. 'Across from us', he wrote, 'the elite of the French air service is deployed. They fly the single-seat SPAD with the 180 Hispano. A fast, agile machine, superior to our Shark (Roland D II Haifisch) and Albatros, especially in the dive, when our wing planes begin to quake so we fear they'll tear off in the air. The more sturdy SPAD takes these stresses much better'."

p.31 Guttman, J (2011) SPAD VII vs Albatros D.III 1917-18, Osprey, Oxford.

The US series 'Dogfights' covered this engagement - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNlBSDdjpT8

[BellMW54]

I know I must sound like a stuck record, but I would recommend the following two pairings:

Moraine Saulnier vs. Fokker E.III
Airco DH.2 vs. Halberstadt D.III

My reasons are as follows:

1) Scout vs. scout would be more popular
2) All of the models are used in all of the rule books as well as the actual scenarios offered by Ares
3) All models use the B Damage Deck, which allows for a method of acquiring them without having to purchase another RAP

and the 4th and final reason ...

4) I JUST WANT TO GET MY HANDS ON THOSE EARLY WAR PLANES!