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Thread: Ground attack with Halberstadt and Hannover CLs

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    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    Default Ground attack with Halberstadt and Hannover CLs

    I had a look through the various threads in this and the "Rules" section and didn't see anything, so I'll ask it myself!

    Does anyone have rules for German CL ground-attack aircraft using stick grenades or Wurfgranaten against ground targets? The RAP rules are pretty straightforward about how to determine machine gun/strafing against ground targets, but there's nothing in there about hand-thrown or dropped grenades and bombs...I was thinking of assigning explosive devices either a set value (similar to the Bomb Weight discussion in another thread) OR using a damage card from one of the usual decks.

    I'm planning on some ground-attack missions with my Halberstadt CLIIs in the near future, and I would love some guidance from those of you out there who may have tried some things already...especially if you like how they've worked for you! If this has been discussed elsewhere and I've missed it, let me know where to look

    All the best,
    Matt

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    I think if you use bombing rules only less damage from grenades or hand dropped bombs

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    I think you're right about needing to use a modified version of the standard bombing rules, Darrell...

    Since the observer would be throwing them or dropping them from his duty station, they could actually be off to one side or another instead of moving in the same path as the aircraft itself, or conceivably they could be to the rear of the aircraft if he were throwing things in that direction. I think you would still need to allow for the forward momentum of the plane, but not too much since any sort of attack like this is going to occur at a pretty low altitude.

    Perhaps the best thing is simply to fly a couple of 'training missions' and play with different values of damage.

    By the by, does anyone have suggestions on good historical reference material for this area of conflict? Any good books available on Schlasta action?

    All the best,
    Matt

    PS - Just did a quick check online and on the Forum and ran across Schlachtflieger, reviewed on the Forum by Baldrick62 and Guntruck...looks like I need to save up a bit and purchase this tome!
    Last edited by matt56; 12-28-2015 at 06:24. Reason: new info

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    PS - Just did a quick check online and on the Forum and ran across Schlachtflieger, reviewed on the Forum by Baldrick62 and Guntruck...looks like I need to save up a bit and purchase this tome!
    Handbombs are definitely a missing item in WGF; I need to add that to the to-do lists. Maybe check some of my WW1 games for ideas.
    Oh, and I would definitely try and get the Schachtflieger book
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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    I think I definitely WILL try and get Schlachtflieger, Karl - I saw in the book review section you recommended it...

    Didn't you have some ground attack stuff happening at Origins this last year with your Junkers biplanes, or were those just flying a recon mission? I'd be happy for any input you care to share...

    All the best,
    Matt

  6. #6

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    The Junkers were just flying recon, contact patrol to be precise (how far did our troops advance? go find them Fritz).
    Grenades and other handbombs would have more of a disruptive and morale effect; OTOH, that and strafing did have a documented effect on ground units in WWI.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    ...Since the observer would be throwing them or dropping them from his duty station, they could actually be off to one side or another instead of moving in the same path as the aircraft itself, or conceivably they could be to the rear of the aircraft if he were throwing things in that direction. I think you would still need to allow for the forward momentum of the plane, but not too much since any sort of attack like this is going to occur at a pretty low altitude...Perhaps the best thing is simply to fly a couple of 'training missions' and play with different values of damage....
    Not tried this but I would treat the dropping of grenades the same as bombing as there are clear rules for that. At the lowest altitude you'd just place the 'bomb card' to the front of the aircraft base and that's where it lands - if you want them chucking them out then just slide the 'bomb card' along the base front out to the appropriate side; if you do want to lob it out the back as well then when you move the aircraft in the next phase put the 'bomb card' where the base had been as that is where it should land. It shouldn't be much harder than that !
    You then just need to decide if you're going to assign damage points to a grenade or draw a card from a deck ! Not sure which way I'd go with that - maybe just pull an A card per grenade is the way to go?

    "He is wise who watches"

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    This is kind of what I was thinking, Dave - it shouldn't be that hard, and I like your card placement ideas. I think the A Deck idea might be good for stick grenades and Wurfgranaten, but maybe for some of the 'larger' bomblets a standard damage value might be more appropriate - then again, perhaps drawing an extra card or two depending on explosive value (if that could somehow be figured) would be the ticket.

    Thanks for the input!
    All the best,
    Matt

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    Just did a quick check online and on the Forum and ran across Schlachtflieger, reviewed on the Forum by Baldrick62 and Guntruck...looks like I need to save up a bit and purchase this tome!
    Schlachtflieger! is an outstanding, comprehensive reference. Well-worth the investment.

    And I agree with Dave's interpretation... keep it simple and make use of the rules already in existence.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    This is kind of what I was thinking, Dave - it shouldn't be that hard, and I like your card placement ideas. I think the A Deck idea might be good for stick grenades and Wurfgranaten, but maybe for some of the 'larger' bomblets a standard damage value might be more appropriate - then again, perhaps drawing an extra card or two depending on explosive value (if that could somehow be figured) would be the ticket.
    Thanks for the input! All the best, Matt
    I roughed out some bomb values here a while ago that might help you work something up Matt.

    "He is wise who watches"

  11. #11

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    Thanks for linking those, Dave! I had seen them when I was originally searching before posting this thread, and I was planning to go back to them...

    These should help wonderfully as I dig deeper into the ordinance carried by the Halberstadts and Hannovers. I just ordered Schlachtflieger, so I hope it will be instrumental in filling in some of the (at this point fairly large) gaps in my knowledge base.

    All the best,
    Matt

  12. #12

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    OK, I got out my copy of Schlachtflieger! and along with a nice discussion of bombs carried is a section on grenades. The Stielhandgranate, or stick handgrenade, was the standard infantry grenade. In 1918, the crews started to bundle 6 heads around the head of a single stick grenade, creating the "Devil's Fist (Die Teufel Faust....hmm, so is the Devil female, or is a fist ), the same arraignment that the WW2 Heer used as a anti-tank and bunker busting weapon.
    The Granatenwerfer 1916 was a light mortar/grenade launcher that was issued to the infantry. The Schlachtflieger used the rounds as bombs, with the big advantage that they were contact-fused. It had a slightly larger bursting charge than the Stielhandgranate, though not by much.
    Grenades were dropped at very low altitudes, due to their timed fuses. The Granatenwerfer rounds didn't need to be (contact fused), but accuracy became an issue, as you were trying to get them into a trench. Troops in the open, esp. in road march, were much more vulnerable, but quite frankly, your MG would be a better weapon. The CL planes weren't supposed to carry bombs, but they often had external racks, probably for 2-4 50kg P.W.K bombs, though I guess 12.5kg could be rigged to. Something to research.

    Looking at the weapons, I'm not sure there would be a great effect on ground units except for morale. Granted, if you dropped one in a crowded trench, it would be horrific, and the advantage of the standard grenade was the chance of airbursts. MGs would have a greater effect. So, with a section of trench given 5 hits:
    1) Grenades must be dropped from altitude 1 with no climb counters.
    2) Grenade dropping is declared before that phase's movement card is place down (like bombing).
    3) After the plane is moved, if the plane's card/base covers the target's dot, the grenade hits (this, unlike bombing since the plane is low, and the grenades are dropped/thrown over the side).
    4) The target will take a B damage from a standard grenade (actually 2 is assumed) or an A from a "Teufel Faust". No special damages are taken from these, except if the target is an AAA gun, wherein the boom card will destroy the target. If this happens, the dropping plane takes a B damage from the blast
    5) German Schlachtflieger can carry 5 grenade or 2 "Teufel Faust"; decide before play begins.

    Opinions?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  13. #13

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    Look good to be playtesting here, Karl! I hope to get some playing in this coming week, so I'll give 'em a go... Some of the pics I've seen of Halberstadts being loaded show hand grenade racks on the side of the observer's cockpit with 10 stick grenades neatly packed and ready to use, in addition to Wurfgranaten being stowed inside the observer's cockpit area...

    In German, 'die Faust' is 'the fist' - it's a feminine noun...a female devil would be 'die Teufelin'...

    I have Schlachtflieger coming next week in the mail - an early birthday present - can't wait to see it! I look forward to delving into it for more specific information.
    We were at the AF Museum this morning and I hoped to see it in the bookstore there just to whet my appetite a bit, but they didn't have it - they DID have tons of other Schiffer books......some of which I may eventually have to get.

    All the best,
    Matt

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    1) Grenades must be dropped from altitude 1 with no climb counters.
    2) Grenade dropping is declared before that phase's movement card is place down (like bombing).
    3) After the plane is moved, if the plane's card/base covers the target's dot, the grenade hits (this, unlike bombing since the plane is low, and the grenades are dropped/thrown over the side).
    4) The target will take a B damage from a standard grenade (actually 2 is assumed) or an A from a "Teufel Faust". No special damages are taken from these, except if the target is an AAA gun, wherein the boom card will destroy the target. If this happens, the dropping plane takes a B damage from the blast
    5) German Schlachtflieger can carry 5 grenade or 2 "Teufel Faust"; decide before play begins.
    Opinions?
    Karl
    I have to agree with you Karl, that using the MG would probably be more effective ! The amount of explosive in the potato masher was relatively small and more concussive than fragmentation in effect.
    I think 1 & 2 are good, I'd disagree with 3 as bombing rules give that as placing the bomb card to the front of base and I don't see that dropping a grenade would be any different from dropping a bomb as everything falls at the same rate but I agree it would make things easier.
    4 & 5 are certainly usable though I'd make it more hit and miss - like the solo AA rules - draw a special damage to denote a hit then pull the appropriate damage card for damage caused, Boom cards are a direct hit and clear a trench section.. That may be too fiddly for some but I like the longer odds of causing damage.
    I looked up the werfer grenades:
    "The Granatenwerfer 16 fired a basic 1.9 kilo high-explosive grenade with a segmented head allowing for easy fragmentation. The grenade covered a large area with individual fragments. A later version used a cover over the head of the grenade filled with a small powder charge. When the grenade impacted, the small powder charge would ignite, propelling the grenade 3-4 feet into the air. The grenade would then explode as a small air burst, increasing its deadly effect."
    Nasty ! Maybe two A cards for them ?!!

    "He is wise who watches"

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I have to agree with you Karl, that using the MG would probably be more effective ! The amount of explosive in the potato masher was relatively small and more concussive than fragmentation in effect.
    I think 1 & 2 are good, I'd disagree with 3 as bombing rules give that as placing the bomb card to the front of base and I don't see that dropping a grenade would be any different from dropping a bomb as everything falls at the same rate but I agree it would make things easier.
    4 & 5 are certainly usable though I'd make it more hit and miss - like the solo AA rules - draw a special damage to denote a hit then pull the appropriate damage card for damage caused, Boom cards are a direct hit and clear a trench section.. That may be too fiddly for some but I like the longer odds of causing damage.
    I looked up the werfer grenades:
    Nasty ! Maybe two A cards for them ?!!
    I did rule #3 because bombing takes place at altitude 2+, wherein grenade dropping is at altitude 1, so less forward motion, and also since some action will be throwing rather than dropping.
    I like the drawing for hit (with a special damage card), then draw damage. I was trying to think of a good way without introducing dice
    With the werfers, maybe skip the to-hit draw, and just go with a B damage. That would give a greater chance without overpowering things.

    Also, for troops moving in the open, assume it hits, and go with b for grenades, and A for werfers? Then we have to figure out real bombs
    Karl

    PS: just to state the obvious: when dropping grenades (or bombs) the observer can't use his MG.
    KwE
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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    I haven't played the AA solo game - what are these 'special damage cards' you are speaking of, Dave and Karl? I assume there's a link somewhere to a file which I could download...

    I look forward to trying these ideas out later this coming week - thanks for such thoughtful input into my question

    All the best,
    Matt

  17. #17

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    Matt, for solo AA is done differently. Pg 39 in the latest rule book explains, 'Solitaire scenarios and A Guns'. Instead of the normal procedure you first draw an A damage card. If it has any special damage on it, it is considered a hit and then you draw the actual damage card. So using this procedure for dropping grenades it will make it a bit more difficult to hit.
    Last edited by Teaticket; 01-03-2016 at 10:52.

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    Thanks, Peter! I haven't played any 'official' solo games, or at least, any using the 'official' rules - I will visit my rule book and see what's shakin'! This will make it harder for grenades to be successful , as it probably should be...

    All the best,
    Matt

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    I did rule #3 because bombing takes place at altitude 2+, wherein grenade dropping is at altitude 1, so less forward motion, and also since some action will be throwing rather than dropping.
    I like the drawing for hit (with a special damage card), then draw damage. I was trying to think of a good way without introducing dice
    With the werfers, maybe skip the to-hit draw, and just go with a B damage. That would give a greater chance without overpowering things.

    Also, for troops moving in the open, assume it hits, and go with b for grenades, and A for werfers? Then we have to figure out real bombs
    Karl

    PS: just to state the obvious: when dropping grenades (or bombs) the observer can't use his MG.
    KwE
    Ach so ! You're right of course Karl, my mistake, I'm obviously still WoWing & using FotG measures where "A bombing () can be made at any altitude above level 0. If the plane is at altitude 1 when it drops the bombs, they hit the ground immediately."

    "He is wise who watches"

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    Thanks, Peter! I haven't played any 'official' solo games, or at least, any using the 'official' rules - I will visit my rule book and see what's shakin'! This will make it harder for grenades to be successful , as it probably should be...All the best, Matt
    Excerpt from Burning Drachens Matt:
    "...Don’t place the counter as per the multiplayer rules. Instead, draw an A damage card to see if the aim of the AA battery is correct. If there is no special damage on the card, the aim is wrong and the shot is wasted. If there is any type of special damage (including jammed guns), ignore the result on the A card and draw a C damage card...."
    Though in this case for the grenades you'd draw a B Damage. The idea being to simulate the difficulty of dropping a frag into a trench & causing meaningful damage.
    Not sure if this is repeated in the RAP.

    "He is wise who watches"

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    Thanks, Peter! Makes sense...must be why you need lots of ground attack Halberstadts concentrating on the same target...

    All the best,
    Matt

  22. #22

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    From what I've read, a lot of the actions didn't involve trench-strafing. They went after airfields, artillery batteries and troops on the move. There was that infamous incident (I believe the Battle of Cambari) where a British division was caught crossing a bridge by a staffel of halberstadts, and they pretty much routed them. they did do some trench-work during the opening of the Spring '18 offensives, but again, artillery and moving troops was the norm.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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    I'm planning on them hitting a forming concentration of troops - getting ready for an attack - for one of the games I'm planning to run for Origins. I didn't want to wait too long to start working out the bugs... But I also want to do some trench attacking in the games I play with my buddies...

    Thanks for all the input!
    All the best,
    Matt

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    Karl and Peter - yesterday I finally tried Halberstadts with some ground attack action, with the observers throwing grenades left or right of the plane. It worked fairly well - the planes were at two pegs of ALT instead of one, so we had forward momentum 'carry' the grenades like it would bombs, but I think I like the idea of ALT 1 and the grenade hits immediately. We were playing with double A and B decks, so for grenade explosions, we simply drew and A card and its damage became what was inflicted. Ones and twos and zeroes, mostly.

    Rather than trying to get the tossed explosives into trenches, I had designated and area of the board behind the trenches as an assembly area and the Halberstadts were trying to cause damage there to disrupt a 'planned attack' - the larger area gave the Halbs more of a chance of actually doing something, and, as you mentioned above, Karl, that seems to be what they excelled at when given the chance.

    I look forward to flying these some more and playing with the rules until they seem good - yesterday was a nice start to figuring this out, and it was great to get input from the other lads playing the game. We all agreed that flying more 'boring' two-seater missions would probably be a good idea...

    Thanks again for your input! I look forward to adding to the discussion in the coming weeks.

    All the best,
    Matt



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