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Thread: Spinning Out

  1. #51

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    I like the idea of a spin-- it is really a neat idea. I agree with Gallo Rojo that being in a spin doesn't cause damage....

    A spin itself doesn't cause damage-- the problem is getting out of it. As the old skydiver's saying goes-- "Its not the fall that kills you-- its the sudden stop at the end!"
    When a plane stalls and falls into a spin, recovery is counter intuitive-- you need to give full power, opposite rudder and down elevator. That's why a spin at low altitude is fatal-- you need height to recover, as you have to dive. The actual spin itself doesn't stress the aircraft's structure-- but that ground contact sure does!

  2. #52

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    Remind me not to get into a spin..........unless I am at max altitude.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcboater View Post
    A spin itself doesn't cause damage-- the problem is getting out of it. As the old skydiver's saying goes-- "Its not the fall that kills you-- its the sudden stop at the end!"
    I'm not so sure about that...I imagine your head gets bounced around quite a bit during the spin. I remember in one of the Dogfights shows a pilot talked about a maneuver in a P-51 where he pulled the stick back into his gut and applied full rudder. He said your helmet would bounce off the canopy because you lost speed so quickly, then you had to level out.

    I would use the 90 degree turns to represent a spin, not the gently 60 degree ones.
    Last edited by diceslinger; 03-15-2013 at 12:45.

  4. #54

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    Thinking this through a little further--

    Different aircraft have different spin characteristics. Some of the more stable ones are hard to spin, and easy to recover if you do mange to get a spin going. Other planes spin with little provocation, and can take longer to recover. I don't think we want to go to that level of complexity in this game-- I think a "one rule fits all" spin rule is all most of us want.

    So, here's what I'm looking at implementing:

    - there is a minimum altitude at which a plane can't recover-- if you enter a spin at level 1, you're dead.
    - there is no difference between an accidental and an intentional spin -- the aerodynamics are the same.
    - Given enough height, you can always recover from a spin.
    - there is some variability in how long it takes to recover- you can't predict it exactly.
    - as long as you avoid the ground, no damage is incurred.
    - no spin will last more than xx cards. (I'm thinking 9 cards as the max) That means the most you can lose is 3 altitude levels.
    - A plane falling in a spin should lose altitude less rapidly than if it was in a dive. (Think acorn vs. mapleseed) But this adds too much complexity, and won't be taken into consideration.

    I'm going to try these rules:
    - two consecutive steep maneuvers puts you into a spin.
    - Use the sharpest turn cards as described above.
    - immediately drop one level, and then play three consecutive "sharpest turn" cards (cycle repeats until you're out of the spin)
    - after the third card, make recovery attempt.
    - recovery attempt is made after every card played after the third one-- that will randomize the direction the plane is going when it exits the spin.

    To check for recovery, pull an A deck damage card. If you get a zero, spin is over. If you get any other result, you're still spinning. (Ignore the damage on the card.)
    If you recover after playing the first or second card in a turn, the rest of the turn is played as straights. If you recover after playing card 3, your first card of the next turn must be a straight.
    The straight(s) played after exiting a spin is a "recovery" straight- you can't use it as part of a Immelman or other compound maneuver.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by diceslinger View Post
    .......I would use the 90 degree turns to represent a spin, not the gently 60 degree ones.
    I used the 60 degree turn because every deck has three in either direction - unlike the 90. As it is played across the base rather than in the conventional way (see photo) it produces the desired affect of a whiplash ride to earth !



    I'd hardly call that gentle

  6. #56

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    I'm not sure I understand the sequence of cards shown. If the plane is doing a left turn, why would it be entering a spin?

    Assuming that is is entering a spin, I think the next move is the card that is 90 degrees to the base, and that the plane will be turned about 150 degrees to the left as a result.

    So what are the other cards shown for? And why is the dive card shown?

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I used the 60 degree turn because every deck has three in either direction - unlike the 90. As it is played across the base rather than in the conventional way (see photo) it produces the desired affect of a whiplash ride to earth !



    I'd hardly call that gentle

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I used the 60 degree turn because every deck has three in either direction - unlike the 90. As it is played across the base rather than in the conventional way (see photo) it produces the desired affect of a whiplash ride to earth !



    I'd hardly call that gentle
    Ah...I see, even more violent that the 90 degree turn would be. I take it back, this is much better!

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcboater View Post
    I'm not sure I understand the sequence of cards shown. If the plane is doing a left turn, why would it be entering a spin?
    Assuming that is is entering a spin, I think the next move is the card that is 90 degrees to the base, and that the plane will be turned about 150 degrees to the left as a result. So what are the other cards shown for? And why is the dive card shown?
    Then you did not follow the link in the first post to the album that explained it all Bill. The aircraft is already spinning & the third card has just been placed. There is no dive card - that is the aircraft card used to show where the spin started, for purposes of the demo, the other two are the first two moves of the spin.
    Last edited by flash; 03-17-2013 at 10:47.

  9. #59

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    Great demo! Thanks!

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Then you did not follow the link in the first post to the album that explained it all Bill. The aircraft is already spinning & the third card has just been placed. There is no dive card - that is the aircraft card used to show where the spin started, for purposes of the demo, the other two are the first two moves of the spin.
    The link on the original post gives me an "invalid album" error, but the one in post #58 works great. Now I get it-- and I like it even more than I did before! Thanks for taking the time to document and post this!

    I still thing I'm not going to implement a damage penalty just for being in a spin-- the chance of going splat is penalty enough.....

    One think I haven't decided on yet-- in reality, a plane with engine damage (reduced power output) would have a harder time getting out of a spin. I'm not sure if that is worth factoring in....too many "If-then-else" rules can bog a game down.
    Last edited by rcboater; 03-17-2013 at 15:11. Reason: fix typos

  11. #61

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    Very cool... thanks for the tutorial, Dave!

    I'm going to have to give this a try next game I play... prepare for nausea!

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcboater View Post
    The link on the original post gives me an "invalid album" error, but the one in post #58 works great....not going to implement a damage penalty just for being in a spin
    That's strange as I just copied the one in #58 from #1 ?! I shall refresh the first one as alot has happened to the site over the years that maybe has affected the link. Thanks for pointing it out. As to penalties - entirely up to you. My main thrust was to provide a card mechanism/manoeuvre that people could use to show the aircraft spinning - recovery/damage etc is to their taste. Some use the cards, some use dice, whatever lifts their wing. I suggested damage be taken as it is an uncontrolled spin & attempts to get out of it may damage the aircraft in some way, particularly if already weakened by combat.
    I also came up with a tail spin which looks slightly less vicious in execution in this album. as a controlled spin.

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcboater View Post
    Thinking this through a little further--

    Different aircraft have different spin characteristics. Some of the more stable ones are hard to spin, and easy to recover if you do mange to get a spin going. Other planes spin with little provocation, and can take longer to recover. I don't think we want to go to that level of complexity in this game-- I think a "one rule fits all" spin rule is all most of us want.

    So, here's what I'm looking at implementing:

    - there is a minimum altitude at which a plane can't recover-- if you enter a spin at level 1, you're dead.
    - there is no difference between an accidental and an intentional spin -- the aerodynamics are the same.
    - Given enough height, you can always recover from a spin.
    - there is some variability in how long it takes to recover- you can't predict it exactly.
    - as long as you avoid the ground, no damage is incurred.
    - no spin will last more than xx cards. (I'm thinking 9 cards as the max) That means the most you can lose is 3 altitude levels.
    - A plane falling in a spin should lose altitude less rapidly than if it was in a dive. (Think acorn vs. mapleseed) But this adds too much complexity, and won't be taken into consideration.

    I'm going to try these rules:
    - two consecutive steep maneuvers puts you into a spin.
    - Use the sharpest turn cards as described above.
    - immediately drop one level, and then play three consecutive "sharpest turn" cards (cycle repeats until you're out of the spin)
    - after the third card, make recovery attempt.
    - recovery attempt is made after every card played after the third one-- that will randomize the direction the plane is going when it exits the spin.

    To check for recovery, pull an A deck damage card. If you get a zero, spin is over. If you get any other result, you're still spinning. (Ignore the damage on the card.)
    If you recover after playing the first or second card in a turn, the rest of the turn is played as straights. If you recover after playing card 3, your first card of the next turn must be a straight.
    The straight(s) played after exiting a spin is a "recovery" straight- you can't use it as part of a Immelman or other compound maneuver.
    Wow. Fantastic! This is just what I was looking for.

    Maybe consider two things: A more experienced pilot will recover quicker than a rookie. Also, how do you propose 'spin characteristics'? Camel was a very difficult machine to get out of a spin, as was the Fokker eindecker and DH-2. On the other hand, the DVII was docile and was automatic in spin recovery.

    If one has the notion, assign each a/c a spin number; i.e. how many three card cycles it can spin. Also, allow a ace two cards to recover, or three. Rookie one, or rookie has to draw two zeros.

    Otherwise. Perfect!
    Last edited by mike_espo; 04-04-2013 at 08:24.

  14. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_espo View Post
    Wow. Fantastic! This is just what I was looking for.

    Maybe consider two things: A more experienced pilot will recover quicker than a rookie. Also, how do you propose 'spin characteristics'? Camel was a very difficult machine to get out of a spin, as was the Fokker eindecker and DH-2. On the other hand, the DVII was docile and was automatic in spin recovery.

    If one has the notion, assign each a/c a spin number; i.e. how many three card cycles it can spin. Also, allow an ace two cards to recover, or three. Rookie one, or rookie has to draw two zeros.

    Otherwise. Perfect!
    My original premise was that most people wouldn't want the added complexity of different spin ratings for different types of aircraft. But having given it about 90 seconds of thought, here's an idea:

    Use a "Spin Rating", which is expressed as an integer, which is added to the base value of "3" to see how many cards you have to play before you can attempt a recovery. A "nasty" plane like the Camel might have a value of "2", which means you have to play 5 cards before you can even begin to try to recover. Maybe all rotary engined planes would have a rating of "1", while inline engined planes would be given a value of "0". Maybe a super stable plane would get a value of -1. (I think the toughest part would be coming up with the values for all the planes in the game.)

    To factor in pilot skill, I'd change the value on the damage card that gets you out of the spin. A novice needs to draw a "0", while an intermediate pilot recovers if he pulls a "0" or a "1". An expert maybe recovers with 0-3. (I'd have to look at the percentages in the deck to decide what values to use.)

    But again-- this is off the top of my head-- I haven't analyzed or tested anything to do with Spin Ratings or Pilot skill. I'm not sure it is worth adding the additional complexity to a 'beer and pretzels" game.

    Just had another idea-- if you wanted a simpler spin recovery rule that still makes some distinction between aircraft types, but doesn't send you to another chart or table to look up values, and doesnt' factore in pilot experience, you could try this:
    - Rotary engined aircraft need to draw a "0" from the "A" deck to recover. (About a 1 in 3 chance)
    - Inline engined planes need to draw a "0" or a "1" from the "A" damage deck-- (about a 1 in 2 chance).

  15. #65

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    You might have to add something if the pilot is wounded too.

  16. #66

    mooby666
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    Love it! Whilst playing with my daughter, we usually only use one level of altitude, but this rule works great as it just makes an easy lost turn and a slightly odd addition as now the plane is facing a totally odd direction! Daughter doesn't like it though as she's a bit of a cheater haha!

  17. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by CappyTom View Post
    That sounds like a fun way to do it. So do you have any good story's to tell of anyone's spin outs?
    We had a campaign game last night. In our rules a plane goes into a spin if someone does an illegal maneuver. So here I am trying to guard our Roland C.II so he can hit the balloon twice / turn. I am flying a Fokker E.III. I fly over the balloon barrage and attempt to do an immelmann (modified) to gain a climb counter (opposite of a split-s).

    But meatball I am, I instead put the red climb counter on my third maneuver instead of the blue short stall....
    Immediate spin takes place... Our original rules stated the plane would lose one climb counter per maneuver. But this kite has 6 damn climb counters / altitude band.

    Somehow my plane remains about .5 inch from the balloon barrage throughout the spin... And the enemy AA Guns can't figure out where to put their counters to catch me. Phew...

    Just before I crash at altitude 1 with no climb counters.. after spending a zillion turns descending to the ground... my wingman blows up the balloon and destroys the barrage. It is my very last chance to avoid hitting the floor and I finally pull out of the spin into a straight... It was awesome.

    This being said... due to mutual agreement we changed our rules for spinning. A plane with no forward thrust would likely start a nose-dive pretty quickly..

    Here are our revised rules for spins (mostly using rcboater's ideas listed above):

    Spins

    Initiation of a Spin:
    A plane will go into a spin at the start of the Planning Phase if the following circumstances occur:

    • Illegal maneuver
    • Immediately draw an A Damage for Physical Damage
    • Voluntarily to try to evade/fool enemies
    • During a mid-air crash

    You may not fire any weapon during any maneuver phase when you are in a spin.

    Spin Recovery:
    During the End of Turn clean-up phase the plane should:
    • Drop one altitude counter and all climb counters
    • Draw an A damage card.
      • If it is a “0” value they can end the spin and plan maneuver cards as normal or they can continue spinning voluntarily.
      • Any other result the plane continues spinning
      • If the second draw for spin recovery “fails” the plane will immediately go into a nose-dive.

    • Draw a B damage card for structural / stress damage to the plane.
    Last edited by celticgriffon; 07-24-2013 at 23:18.

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by celticgriffon View Post
    This being said... due to mutual agreement we changed our rules for spinning. A plane with no forward thrust would likely start a nose-dive pretty quickly..
    Quite the contrary, actually. All other things being equal, it is harder to get out of a spin with low power than with higher power. And a plane with no forward thrust at all is almost certainly doomed.

    When a plane is in a spin, there is no forward airflow from airspeed over the control surfaces. The only airflow is from the propwash-- absent that, the rudder and elevator are ineffective.

    I also don't think giving out damage cards to aircraft in a spin is historically accurate or realistic. Spins don't stress and damage aircraft (a spin is not a fire!) -- what damages them is contact with the ground when they can't recover in time. (I'm assuming here we're talking about undamaged aircraft that enter a spin either deliberately or as a result of pilot error-- the large majority of the cases-- I'm sure you could find an example where a spin killed off a plane that was on the verge of structural failure when it entered the spin.)

    Please understand I said giving our damage cards isn't realistic-- I didn't say it was "wrong". It is your game, your friends, your house rules, and your fun. If you want to add tension and drama (and fun) by adding in such a rule, go for it. Games are always a balance between realism and playability, after all. I'm just pointing out that if you think you're also adding 'realism" then you're a little misguided. (After all, putting airplanes on little plastic stands isn't realistic, nor is forcing them to only turn 30, 60, or 90 degrees!)

  19. #69

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    Hey Bill,

    I am ashamed to say my retention from Physics in High School is obviously lost... eek.

    I will have to rethink giving a "B" Damage each turn.

    To further this conversation - what were the characteristics of a plane which would have made it easier to recover? There was mention of engine placement above, for example.

    And on a different note here is an example. Let's say we have a Fokker E.III with 6 climb counters to gain altitude and a Fokker D.VII which needs two to climb - is there a way we could easily use these numbers for a fairly accurate system?

    Cheers,
    Michael

  20. #70

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    In the early days of aviation, a spin was thought to always be fatal-- that you couldn't recover from it. That was in part because those early planes were seriously underpowered, and partly because pilots didn't know what to do-- the initial reaction was to pull back on the stick - "up" elevator,, because you're falling. But if that does anything, it makes the spin worse. (I did this more than once with my RC plane when first learning to fly!)

    The proper recovery from a spin requires three things-- full power (to get some airflow over the rudder and elevator), opposite rudder (to slow down the rate of the turn) , and down elevator ( to enter a dive and get some airflow over the wings and get back into forward flight.) The evolution of the maneuver is: spin, spiral dive, straight dive, pull out to level flight.

    By the time of WW1, spin recovery technique was common knowledge. So, in a general sense, with enough altitude, you can always recover from a spin, but some factors come into play:

    Stable planes are hard to stall and spin to begin with, and easy to recover if you do manage to get them to spin. I've flown a stable, lightweight RC trainer that just won't spin-- when it stalls, all it does is drop the nose into a shallow dive. The British BE-2 series were described by their pilots as excessively stable- made for a good camera platform, but also a good target, as they were so un-maneuverable.

    Conversely, less stable planes (like fighters) are much more maneuverable. Part of that means they are also easier to spin, and may be harder to recover, depending on how much power they have.

    Personally, for a game like WoW, I don't want a lot of charts or other game mechanics to determine how long a plane is in a spin, so I'm using the "one size fits all" approach. Yes, a Fokker E.III had less than half the hp of a Fokker D-VII, so that would say it is harder to recover from a spin. But is was also more stable, so that would argue that a spin is going to be less severe, and easier to get out of. So, for my games, I go with simplicity, and say it all balances out.

    But you asked for ideas on ways to make distinctions between planes. Using the number of climb chits is a reasonable approximation of the relative amount of power a plane had, and we have a number for every plane in the game, so there should be a way to use it. Here's an idea:

    The gamer in me says to use the climb value as a modifier to a base number for a die roll. Start with a value of 10, and subtract the climb rate number. For a D-VII, with a climb rate of 2, you get 10 - 2 =8. Roll an 8 or less on a 10 sided die, and you recover from the spin. For the E-III, you'd need to roll a 4 or less (10-6=4) to recover.
    I'm just making this up off the top of my head-- you might want to play around with the starting value-- or maybe use an 8-sided die instead of a d10. I'd also want a rule that says there is a minimum number of cards you spin before you start rolling, and a maximum amount of height you can lose before you automatically recover. (Maybe subtract one from the die roll for each turn you're in the spin-- that way, the E.III would need to roll a 4 or less the first roll, a 5 or less the second time, etc. Eventually, if he had enough altitude, he'd be subtracting six from his die roll-- so even if he rolled a ten, subtracting six gets him to the four he needs to recover.

    Hope this helps....

  21. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Many pilots, including the master himself, made this mistake, often fatally.
    How often did he do it fatally?

  22. #72

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    A few questions and comments...

    when you have accidently or intentionally planned an illegal manouever of 2 steep cards in a row, do you play the 2nd steep card before going into the spin?

    can you be shot at when in a spin?

    Should collisions cause spins instead of just taking damage? maybe both planes drawing from the C deck as they tumble... if they collide again they are locked together like was often described in biggles books

  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xen View Post
    A few questions and comments...
    when you have accidentally or intentionally planned an illegal manouever of 2 steep cards in a row, do you play the 2nd steep card before going into the spin?
    can you be shot at when in a spin?
    Should collisions cause spins instead of just taking damage? maybe both planes drawing from the C deck as they tumble... if they collide again they are locked together like was often described in biggles books
    1. "..do you play the 2nd steep card before going into the spin?" I would but wouldn't allow the a/c to shoot due to loss of control
    2. "can you be shot at when in a spin?" Oh yes !
    3. "Should collisions cause spins instead of just taking damage..?" Probably not - but that's up to you ! Maybe on a set damage level on the C deck an a/c spins, or, if the collision damage combined with a/c damage takes it over a set limit it spins. Interesting idea.
    4. ..."maybe both planes drawing from the C deck as they tumble.." Wouldn't draw C damage in the spin - only if they collide again.
    5. "..if they collide again they are locked together like was often described in biggles books" As another idea to lock them together I would suggest that if one of the a/c is destroyed by the collision and the other meets the set conditions to spin then they are locked together & spin out.

  24. #74

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    Just posting links to the albums for the spins so you don't have to hunt the thread:

    This is Spinning out

    This is the optional Tail Spin

    if you hover over the image the words can be viewed.
    Last edited by flash; 04-24-2014 at 04:20.

  25. #75

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    I love playing Canvas Eagles as well as Wings of Glory.

    I love the ideas people have presented in this thread about adding spins to Wings of Glory.

    I also like the way Canvas Eagles handles spins, and I'm wondering if some of its ideas can also be applied to Wings of War.

    One thing that's important in Canvas Eagles is that spins are not automatic. A pilot tests to see if they go into a spin in the following circumstances:

    (1) a pilot performs a tight (zero-movement) stall (which could be the equivalent of two stalls in Wings of Glory)

    (2) a pilot takes significant damage to the plane's tail (which could be the equivalent of maybe 5 points or more from a single source in one phase from a weapon in which a line between the two planes' base pegs passes through the tail of the target plane. This is like how it is determined in Wings of Glory whether a plane is being tailed, except it would also apply to damage caused by an observer's weapon as well.)

    (3) a pilot takes significant damage to the plane's wing (I'm not quite sure yet how to simulate this in Wings of Glory, as side shots could hit either the wing or the fuselage.)

    And although it isn't in the Canvas Eagles rules, I think a pilot should also take a spin check if they perform any type of illegal maneuver.

    I don't like using dice in Wings of Glory, so I think that if a pilot has to perform a spin check, they should draw one "A" damage card. If it's anything but a zero, the plane goes into a spin (or maybe if it's anything but a zero, the plane doesn't spin. In Canvas Eagles, it's slightly more likely that a pilot will succeed at a spin check than fail.)

    As far as the movement of a spinning plane and the ability to recover from the spin, I like the rule suggestions that people have already submitted in this thread.

    I think, however, that it should be very difficult to hit a spinning plane (which is how shooting at spinning planes is handled in Canvas Eagles).

    What do you think?

    -- Eris

  26. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Just posting links to the albums for the spins so you don't have to hunt the thread:
    Thanks for the link! I'd forgotten about these...

  27. #77

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    I’ve been thinking carefully about this topic during the last few days, and we’ve been having fun testing it out during our gaming sessions.

    At heart, however, spinning rules should fit in with the other existing rules by being very easy to learn and use. Adding rules for spinning may seem like it would unnecessarily complicate the game, but in practice I’ve found they don’t because, quite frankly, aircraft don’t spin very often in a typical game. Also, the reasons that an aircraft might spin are pretty intuitive, including:
    • You take a huge blast of damage from somebody all at once
    • You try to make your aircraft do something against the laws of physics
    • You screw up and lose control of the plane while trying to dodge bullets
    • You choose to spin on purpose to fool your opponents
    • Your aircraft breaks apart
    • You get shot and die

    Like I said, the reasons all make sense and are easy to remember.

    Oh, and thanks to Flash and Kaiser for inspiration for all this!

    All that being said, here is my personal take on the idea of adding “spinning” to Wings of Glory. I look forward to any comments anybody might have. Cheers!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Comprehensive Optional Rules for Spinning Aircraft

    Spinning-aircraft movement:
    When an aircraft enters into a spin, choose the direction the aircraft will spin based on its direction of travel during the phase the spin begins. (If the aircraft was travelling straight, chose the direction randomly.)

    During each phase of the spin, take a long curve card and lay it sideways across the front of the aircraft base (or card), then move the plane onto the arrowhead as usual.

    During every third phase of a spin, the plane drops one level, as if it has performed a “dive” maneuver.

    An aircraft will spin for at least three maneuver phases, after which its pilot may attempt to pull out the spin (see “Spin Resolution”, below). If the pilot does not recover from the spin, it continues spinning in the same direction for at least three more phases.

    Checking for spins:
    Depending on the situation, a spin may or may not be automatic. As a result, whenever a spin is a possibility, a “spin check” is performed by the pilot.

    Pilots would sometimes execute a spin on purpose in an attempt to fool an opponent into thinking the plane had been destroyed. Consequently, an aircraft might actually have been destroyed, but upon seeing the aircraft spinning toward the ground, the enemy might not know whether its pilot is “faking it.” Therefore, it is important that the reasons for a spin remain secret during the game, and spin checks are at times performed even if a pilot knows the spin is guaranteed (for reasons explained below).

    To perform a spin check, the pilot announces openly “I’m doing a spin check.” The pilot then draws a card from the “A” damage deck and secretly looks at the results. If the card’s value is a “zero”, the plane has to enter into a spin. If the card is not a “zero”, the plane may not have to enter a spin, depending on the circumstances (explained below). ONLY if the plane will NOT be spinning, the pilot reveals the card to everybody else to prove that a spin result did not occur. Otherwise, the pilot announces he is spinning and does NOT show the card, but instead keeps its value secret. (This is done so that opponents do not know whether or not the pilot was forced to spin.) Whatever the result, the card is otherwise ignored, and the pilot then returns it to a random spot in its deck.

    Spin-check situations:
    Pilots perform the above “spin check” when faced with a variety of circumstances (listed below). Because pilots are to keep secret regarding the reason they are performing a spin check, it is recommended that this list be printed out onto an easily viewable format which players can glance at as needed.

    (Depending on your style of play, you may wish to not use some of the spin-check situations listed below, so all of them are considered optional.)

    Spin checks are potentially conducted twice during a phase: either during movement or after weapons fire.

    Movement-related spin checks:
    (1) An aircraft performs an illegal maneuver. This check is performed immediately after a pilot reveals a maneuver card that is illegal, and the check is resolved before movement is completed for the current phase. Note that the illegal movement must be caught immediately before combat occurs for that phase, and cannot be “retroactively applied.” If movement is completed by all players and the combat portion of the phase begins, then the spin check does not occur, and the illegal movement is allowed without consequence. (This is to maintain the flow of the game. Once a phase is done, it’s done, and the game moves on.). If the spin check results in the aircraft spinning, the illegal maneuver is not played, and instead the aircraft immediately enters into a spin. If the spin check does not cause the aircraft to spin, the illegal maneuver is replaced by a non-steep straight maneuver, and play continues. In either case, the aircraft takes damage by drawing a card from the “A” deck and applying only the number, ignoring any special damage shown. (This is to represent the stress put on the plane by the attempted illegal maneuver.)

    (2) Spin resolution. After three phase of spinning (see explanation below), a pilot is allowed to check to see whether they can regain control of the plane and get it out of the spin. Maneuvers are planned as normal after each set of three spin phases, but the maneuver card immediately after the third spin maneuver must always being a non-steep straight card. After each set of three spin maneuvers are completed, a spin check is conducted as normal (explained above). If the spin-check card is a “zero”, the plane continues to spin for at least three more maneuvers. If the spin-check card is not a zero, the pilot may regain control of the aircraft, at which time game play continues as normal (with his next maneuver always being a straight to simulate him taking a few moments to regain his bearings.) Note that some spin checks automatically fail (such as if the pilot is dead or the plane’s damage points have been exceeded, as explained below). In such a case, the pilot simply declares after looking at the drawn “spin check” card that the plane will continue to spin, and the spin continues as if the plane had normally failed its spin check.

    Damage-related spin checks:
    Note: Spin checks caused by taking damage are resolved at the end of a phase after all combat is completed by all players. Only a single damage-related spin check is performed by an aircraft at the end of each phase, no matter how much damage that aircraft took that phase from any sources.

    (1) An aircraft takes five (5) or more points of damage in a single phase from a SINGLE source (such as a weapon on an aircraft, or anti-aircraft fire from the ground, or a collision with another plane, etc.) Note that multiple weapons from one unit (such as a bomber or naval ship with multiple guns) are each considered a single unique source, and their damage is not added together when determining whether a pilot has to perform a spin check during that phase.

    (2) An aircraft is destroyed or its pilot is killed. This check is automatically failed (for obvious reasons), but the reason for its failure is kept secret by its pilot. Note that the fact that the aircraft has been eliminated from play is NOT revealed. Instead, the pilot simply announces after receiving a damage card that a spin check will be performed, and no matter what the result of the drawn “spin check” card, the pilot announces the aircraft enter into a spin and secretly returns the “spin check” card to its stack without revealing its value.

    (3) An explosion card. This spin check is automatically failed (see above). In this situation, the pilot has avoided taking any damage, but for some reason lost control of his aircraft while attempting to outmaneuver his opponent. The explosion card is kept in the aircraft’s stack of damage cards but the aircraft actually takes no damage. The pilot announces he needs to perform a spin check as normal, but the plane enters into a spin no matter what the “spin check” card’s results.

    Spinning on purpose:
    A pilot may decide to enter a spin on purpose. This can be done after a pilot performs an illegal maneuver or after his aircraft takes a damage card, even if the damage wasn’t enough to require a spin check. To purposely enter into a spin, the pilot simply announces that he needs to check for a spin, then he draws a “spin check” card and announces he will be entering into a spin, even if the card indicates that a spin is not required. As with a normal spin check, the card is afterward returned by the pilot to a random spot in its draw deck without revealing its value.

    Increased difficulty of hitting a spinning target:
    Because of the erratic movements of a spinning aircraft, it is more difficult to hit than other aircraft. To simulate this, whenever a spinning aircraft receives a damage card, the pilot is given two damage cards and chooses the one he wishes to accept, with the other being returned to its appropriate damage deck without being revealed to other players.

    That’s pretty much it. I know it may seem complicated and a bit daunting at first, but actually it works rather smoothly in practice without hampering the play of the game. What’s important is for players to be able to easily remember when a spin check is to be performed, and for that a simple printed list is very sufficient.

    I look forward to any responses or comments on this. Thanks a heap for the ideas, everybody! Tally ho!

    -- Eris

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    List of Potential Spin Checks

    Movement related:
    (1) An aircraft performs an illegal maneuver
    (2) Spin resolution (After three phase of spinning)

    Damage related:
    (1) An aircraft takes five (5) or more points of damage in a single phase from a single source
    (2) An aircraft is destroyed or its pilot is killed (automatic spin).
    (3) An explosion card (automatic spin)
    (4) Pilot chooses to spin (automatic spin)

  28. #78

    Default

    To include this in a game, adding altitude is a must. I foresee many crashes with deadly circumstances without such an addition. I like Dave's simplicity of spins but for those aircraft that actually employed (well pilots of not the aircraft itself) a spin as a tactic, ie the camel, should these be added as an ace/experience skill. For example a veteran or experienced pilot in a campaign could employ this tactic if there is historical evidence that it could be employed with that type of aircraft or was a spin out of trouble tactic common place?
    See you on the Dark Side......

  29. #79

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    To include this in a game, adding altitude is a must. I foresee many crashes with deadly circumstances without such an addition. I like Dave's simplicity of spins but for those aircraft that actually employed (well pilots of not the aircraft itself) a spin as a tactic, ie the camel, should these be added as an ace/experience skill. For example a veteran or experienced pilot in a campaign could employ this tactic if there is historical evidence that it could be employed with that type of aircraft or was a spin out of trouble tactic common place?
    Regarding historical evidence on the subject, I highly recommend a very interesting article at HistoryNet.com concerning the origins of spin control. To quote, "It became "a useful way of shamming dead when a Hun is on your tail," according to RFC pilot Cecil Lewis. In Britain spins were routinely taught to instructors at the Gosport School of Special Flying, while in France, at the School of Acrobacy and Combat at Pau near the Pyrenees, Americans who had volunteered to serve in the famous Lafayette Escadrille were by July 1917 learning how to do what the French called a vrille.

    And regarding including spinning in a game, I apologize, but I didn't consider the possibility of it being used without altitude because, simply, I never ever play Wings of Glory without using altitude rules. To me, an air-combat game without altitude rules isn't really an air-combat game -- without altitude, I feel it's nothing more than a ground-combat exercise. Air combat takes place in three dimensions, and that's a rock-bottom core aspect of playing any air-combat game for me. (That being said, I have to undoubtedly admit that not everybody shares my stern attitude. I was amazed when I found out recently that Wings of War didn't have altitude rules until the release of "Burning Drachens." I love Canvas Eagles, but I realize it's based on Blue Max, which had a huge fan base but also originally didn't have altitude rules. And there's, of course, Ace of Aces, which a great many people totally enjoy without using the altitude rules. So to each their own, I figure, and the most important rule of any game is to have fun! )

    Tally ho!

    -- Eris

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