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Thread: Air to Ship new rules trial 2.

  1. #1

    Default Air to Ship new rules trial 2.

    Air to Ship bombing trial no 2:

    All attacking aircraft are dive bombers at this stage.

    Here is our 1/200th scale stuka attacking our 1/1200 scale K class destroyer. The stuka is 3ft or 1yd away. So at our aircraft scale that is 200yds away.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is our 1/1200th scale aircraft attacking the same ship at the same range 1yd! At our aircraft scale that is 1200yds away!

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    Quite a difference isn’t there? And yes that is a 1/1200th scale painted mini on top of a peg!


    Our destroyer is armed with a 2pdr quad pom-pom, maximum effective range 1200yds! ROF 120-160 rounds/minute
    (That’s per barrel), 14 round belt fed ammunition.


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    Started off giving it 2 D damage chits per ruler segment. Target moving slow speed only. Shot down after 3 moves. (Each segment on ruler is ˝ range ruler)


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    Did the same but aircraft moving fast. Lucky shot down in first hit. Switched to 2 A damage, increasing by 1 chit every 2 segments. Plane shot down short of destroyer. The 2 D chits were traded to erase 2 A chit damages. (I am giving the bomb 4 D damage chits worth of damage at this stage)
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    Switched to 1 chit then adding a chit every 2 segments. Bottom row aircraft made it through. Dived 4 segments and got an additional A chit for every segment dived. Traded 2 D chits again to removed the 2 A chits and hit the ship for 18+12.

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    At the end I changed the damage chits 2 1xA chit then 1xB chit then 1xC chit for every 2 segments. With 1 C chit per 2 pegs dived. All 3 made it and the destroyer was sunk.
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    Now that was 3 individual aircraft attacking separately, not together.

    Notes:
    1. The trade off is to test just how brave our attacking pilot(s) is/are. By reducing the effectiveness of the attack by trading off attacking chits for potential hits. Of course with no trade off the full potential of hits are taken instead!


    More to follow.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  2. #2

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    Neil, I'm not a WW2 player but I find this a fascinating trial. I might have the wrong end of the stick as I'm wondering if the AAA is rather too effective ? Would it work if you adopted the WW1 solitaire method ? ie, draw a chit (whichever is appropriate in wgs), if you pull a special damage your guns are on target, then you draw a chit for your guns (potentially devastating) effect ?
    It may not work out well with the WW2 stuff but thought you wouldn't mind me chipping in an idea.

    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

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    Not at all Dave. All ideas are welcome.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  4. #4

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Neil, I'm not a WW2 player but I find this a fascinating trial. I might have the wrong end of the stick as I'm wondering if the AAA is rather too effective ? Would it work if you adopted the WW1 solitaire method ? ie, draw a chit (whichever is appropriate in wgs), if you pull a special damage your guns are on target, then you draw a chit for your guns (potentially devastating) effect ?
    It may not work out well with the WW2 stuff but thought you wouldn't mind me chipping in an idea.
    Yes Dave I think that is a good idea.
    Historically AA fire was not that accurate especially in 42/43 & I find it spoils the game if the Aircraft have virtually no chance against the ships.

  5. #5

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    My experience tends to have AA fire as a spoiler of air attacks, rather than a plane killer.

    Unopposed attacks were much more successful than those delivered through a wall of flak, but even vast numbers of AA guns did not wipe out whole flights of attackers, until the kamikazes; pilots would veer off and avoid massed flak, or drop their ordnance early or hurriedly, then escape.

  6. #6

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    Having run a few scenarios with the HMS Glorious, the carrier almost always goes down. However, it is usually at the cost of most of the attacking planes.

    Having only one bomber on an attack is nearly always suicidal, when facing 8+ guns tossing C damage chits. Even if the escort fighters are shot at while engaging the defending fighters, the bombers are flying collanders by the time they are in a position to drop their loads. Ask Sue [ling] about her experience with this.

    The fix? Swarm or death!
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  7. #7

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    In the first set of rules I adopted this after a lengthy process working out odds/% to hit finding the right chit that was close to this, then if you got a hit drawing relevant damage chits. This led to many I've hit but missed shots. Too many AAA guns, to long to work out damage etc, slowed game down. The rules were never intended to be Ship v Air but Air v Ship. Giving the attackers more chance to hit a potential target with possibly CAP aircraft doing more of the damage. Again worked out from a set of details provided by US WW2 trials on how many rounds on average it tiik to shoot down an enemy aircraft. Basically 20,000 20mm rounds to shoot down 1 aircraft whereas it only took 10-20 to shoot down an enemy aircraft by another aircraft. Hence my asking how much ordnance did different ships carry. The rough working for a British destroyer was 15 minutes, increasing the time as the ships got bigger up to 30 minutes for a battleship! So sailing in a convoy just when would you fire at enemy aircraft? For how long? Before your ammunition ran out and your ship just becomes another undefended target. So I suppose the convoy solution is the aircraft that attack are the ones that get through any air cover provided from land or carrier. Or fight two separate battles if you have the space and time. The CAP battle then the air to ship battle.

    Again it's realism v fun. To realistic and the fun goes out of it. Finding the balance is the hard bit.

    Neil



    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    Yes Dave I think that is a good idea.
    Historically AA fire was not that accurate especially in 42/43 & I find it spoils the game if the Aircraft have virtually no chance against the ships.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  8. #8

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    Straight RAW AAA is a killer if you use the actual number of gun mounts. And any of the automatic weapons, say up to 40mm Bofors, are worst,
    since they don't need (by the rules) to pick a detonation point, and therefor "always hit".
    One solution might be to split the area around a ship into zones, and give each zone a chit draw value.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  9. #9

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    Karl that's what I've done. Only 4 zones/arcs max 4 chits per ship depending on FC (fire control). Chit value decreases ie D to A dependent on ship damage. And range. Still a wip. Hope to have it ready for testing by other member s soon.

    Neil

    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Straight RAW AAA is a killer if you use the actual number of gun mounts. And any of the automatic weapons, say up to 40mm Bofors, are worst,
    since they don't need (by the rules) to pick a detonation point, and therefor "always hit".
    One solution might be to split the area around a ship into zones, and give each zone a chit draw value.
    Karl
    See you on the Dark Side......

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    ...
    The rules were never intended to be Ship v Air but Air v Ship. Giving the attackers more chance to hit a potential target with possibly CAP aircraft doing more of the damage.

    ...

    Or fight two separate battles if you have the space and time. The CAP battle then the air to ship battle.

    Again it's realism v fun. To realistic and the fun goes out of it. Finding the balance is the hard bit.

    Neil
    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Karl that's what I've done. Only 4 zones/arcs max 4 chits per ship depending on FC (fire control). Chit value decreases ie D to A dependent on ship damage. And range. Still a wip. Hope to have it ready for testing by other member s soon.

    Neil
    Well, there is a series of trade-offs. This is complicated, and I definitely have mixed feelings when using the Glorious. The challenge is, depending on the side taken, to keep it afloat, or to sink it. In my heart-of-hearts, I'm loath to have such a wonderful piece of work defeated.

    Do we go for historical accuracy, or game fun? Is it possible to have a bit of both? For fun games, we might have one set of rules (IE: unlimited ammo, with no concern for the next attack or next day's battle). Other games, we might have special, optional rules (IE: Everyone has limited ammo, and only so many chits to hand out damage). In some games I've played, cannon straffing with an Me-109 was pretty nasty on the damage accumulated against the ship. Would a fighter have done that, or conserved ammo against more CAP planes? With unlimited ammo, the guns are all blazing away.

    I have a problem with the "4 Zone - 1 Chit/Zone" idea. With the Glorious (and other ships, I would assume), there were multiple mounts capable of firing to the sides, at least. Again, we come to balance, and attempting simplicity.

    In history, Glorious didn't succumb to aerial attack, and defended against, at least, two recorded battles. One in which a Stuka was shot down by CAP (note that it doesn't record any AA fire involved, so Neil's "CAP Air Battle first" option would seem to apply. The second, a damaged He-111 that was forced away, again by CAP, with no mention of AA fire. Again, a CAP battle. These scenarios wouldn't involve the Glorious at all, so no need to even bring it to the event.

    But, if a swarm of planes were inbound, then the 8 guns on a side of the carrier would be much less effective, and the damage to the planes could be less than lethal, but some damage should ensue. One chit per arc doesn't do it for me in either a single plane scenario, nor an multi-plane scenario.
    Perhaps something like a D chit for singles, going down to B chits for multiple planes, depending on defending guns? There are zeros in both, but there is nasty damage in the D set, if a good chit is draw. My math may not be very good on the odds, with this, as I'm not too familiar with the damage chit distribution. Only count damage on a special, or something?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  11. #11

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    Back in the early '80s I really liked the new game "88" from Yaquinto Games, a new company producing what I thought was the closest to my Micro Armour rules.

    All was right with the world until, after playing a scenario for several hours (over a few weeks) I finally got bring in my Stukas and they were immediately shot down because every MG on the map got to fire at them .... (including the Russian ones mounted on wheels that could not fire upward)

    Never played it again ...

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    My experience tends to have AA fire as a spoiler of air attacks, rather than a plane killer.

    Unopposed attacks were much more successful than those delivered through a wall of flak, but even vast numbers of AA guns did not wipe out whole flights of attackers, until the kamikazes; pilots would veer off and avoid massed flak, or drop their ordnance early or hurriedly, then escape.
    Whilst I don't have any experience (I've only been on the delivering end of naval gunfire,and my experience of potential incoming fire in South America was enough for me) my reading would support that. For example the cruisers and destroyers off Crete remained virtually unscathed whilst they were able to put up even a modicum of AA fire. It was when they ran low or out of ammunition and hence the aircraft were not distracted by incoming fire that they fell victim.

  13. #13

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    Read Mountbatten's account of the attack on Kelly, Kipling and Kashmir off Crete. Not good reading. 24 Stukas, 12 went after Kashmir the other 12 after Kipling and Kelly (these two were behind Kashmir by some distance), Kipling went down in minutes if not seconds. Kelly was fortunate in the beginning by hard maneuvering placed themselves under the diving planes and managed to shoot 2-3 down before a bomb hit the forward turret and penetrated the deck. Resulting explosion sank the Kelly. Mountbattens description of a destroyer still doing 30+ knotts whilst capsizing is thrilling to say the least. Kashmir fought off it's attackers. He even mentions controlled fire with the 3 double 4.7" turrets at the aircraft attacking, I would imagine whilst at some distance. The Stuka's attacked in waves of 3 at a time. At this time the main AA defence was a single quad pom pm.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Whilst I don't have any experience (I've only been on the delivering end of naval gunfire,and my experience of potential incoming fire in South America was enough for me) my reading would support that. For example the cruisers and destroyers off Crete remained virtually unscathed whilst they were able to put up even a modicum of AA fire. It was when they ran low or out of ammunition and hence the aircraft were not distracted by incoming fire that they fell victim.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  14. #14

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    Not quite sure what use the 4.7s would have been since they weren't in HA mounts. Perhaps shooting at low level aircraft after their dives were completed? British DD armament wasn't exactly stellar until the end of the war, at least as far as AA was concerned.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    I have a problem with the "4 Zone - 1 Chit/Zone" idea. With the Glorious (and other ships, I would assume), there were multiple mounts capable of firing to the sides, at least. Again, we come to balance, and attempting simplicity.

    Yes but they can fire out to 3 range rulers. So scenario rule dependent you are going to get around 10-12 shots in at slow speed and around 6-8 at fast.

    But, if a swarm of planes were inbound, then the 8 guns on a side of the carrier would be much less effective, and the damage to the planes could be less than lethal, but some damage should ensue. One chit per arc doesn't do it for me in either a single plane scenario, nor an multi-plane scenario.

    For a single ship action and playing yours at 1/200 scale I would use every gun. However I am predominantly talking 1/1200 ships and more than 1. We had 15 merchant ships and 12 naval ships from destroyer, cruiser, battleship and carrier class on 1 table for OP Pedestal. Try working out every single gun firing there.

    Perhaps something like a D chit for singles, going down to B chits for multiple planes, depending on defending guns? There are zeros in both, but there is nasty damage in the D set, if a good chit is draw. My math may not be very good on the odds, with this, as I'm not too familiar with the damage chit distribution. Only count damage on a special, or something?

    I am listening and taking heed of all points raised. However I need to proceed further. So if anyone wants to try these out, then PM me and I'll send you a set to trial.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  16. #16

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    After having talked to you Neil and seen the photos that you took I have to say you have a valid point.


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing



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