Sodeens Se5a

LOOP · 10-23-2015 01:44

I was looking for a colourscheme for my shapeways Se5 and stumbled upon F. O. Sodens blue SE5a.
But then I found a more or less identical Se5a belonging to Billy Bishop. But it looked greenish not brown.
So what colour is right? Brown or green? Or is Sodens SE5 brown and Bishops green?

**Foz** · 10-23-2015 02:19

Both were RFC so should be PC10, though photos of the time weren't very good on colour, and paint faded and discoloured over time anyway.

Misterkit do a PC10 paint, and lots of folks on here say it's about right. I'm ordering some soon.
http://www.misterkit.com/catalog/pro...9v7l337cgp16v5

LOOP · 10-23-2015 02:29

It looks as a dark brown. That is the colour I have seen on most pics.
I now read on a modellers forum that the PC-10 came in 2 tones. one Brown and one greenish

**Dom S** · 10-23-2015 03:01

PC10 is a huuuuuge can of worms.... The short version is that over the course of the war there were several "recipes" for the pigment in it, but the original one was lamp black and ferrous oxide, which gives a chocolate brownish colour. Later versions could appear more green when factory fresh, but tended to weather towards brown again. For what it's worth, my preferred colour is 2 parts Vallejo 94 (Russian Uniform) to 1 part Vallejo 148 (Burnt Umber) - the end result is definitely brown, but just has a hint of green to it.

LOOP · 10-23-2015 03:07

Originally Posted by Dom S

PC10 is a huuuuuge can of worms.... The short version is that over the course of the war there were several "recipes" for the pigment in it, but the original one was lamp black and ferrous oxide, which gives a chocolate brownish colour. Later versions could appear more green when factory fresh, but tended to weather towards brown again. For what it's worth, my preferred colour is 2 parts Vallejo 94 (Russian Uniform) to 1 part Vallejo 148 (Burnt Umber) - the end result is definitely brown, but just has a hint of green to it.

So a sort of greenish-brown then

**Dom S** · 10-23-2015 03:14

Yep, I definitely favour a greenish brown over a brownish green, but rest assured that whatever colour you choose, knowledgeable people will authoritatively tell you that you're categorically wrong....

**Dom S** · 10-23-2015 03:30

PS - This is the colour my preferred mix comes out as:

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**Naharaht** · 10-23-2015 03:57

If you carry out a Google Image search on 'SE5a colour schemes', you will find many variations.

LOOP · 10-23-2015 04:08

Originally Posted by Dom S

Yep, I definitely favour a greenish brown over a brownish green, but rest assured that whatever colour you choose, knowledgeable people will authoritatively tell you that you're categorically wrong....

No doubt

LOOP · 10-23-2015 04:12

Do anyone know why Soden and Bishop share the same colour scheme?
Other pilots have the same pattern but diferent colours.

**Foz** · 10-23-2015 04:17

Some of the confusion stems from the RNAS using PC12 too, which was 'more' brown, again with caveats on fading, wear & tear etc.

**Dom S** · 10-23-2015 04:40

Originally Posted by LOOP

Do anyone know why Soden and Bishop share the same colour scheme?
Other pilots have the same pattern but diferent colours.

Both of them flew a number of machines in their career, so links to which ones you're actually referring to might help. That said, for WWI British aircraft, "different colours" is usually "different interpretations of the same colour". For the SE5a in particular, you could probably count on your fingers the number of them that weren't PC10 overall....

[Edit] If you're thinking of the early 60 squadron scheme, with the white-edged coloured noses and fuselage bands, they were in flight colours - red, yellow and blue. Bishop's flight had blue, but the colour scheme only lasted a few weeks before they were painted over in lots of lovely PC10....

http://i44.tinypic.com/2gwib0p.jpg

**flash** · 10-23-2015 05:35

Originally Posted by LOOP

Do anyone know why Soden and Bishop share the same colour scheme?
Other pilots have the same pattern but diferent colours.

In Osprey's Aviation Elite Units 41 - No.60 Sqn RFC/RAF book the plates show both these aircraft, dated August 1917. Soden's A4853 has some subtle differences from Bishops - the headrest 'hump' behind the cockpit is blue and there is white around the cockpit edge.
Strangely on p64 there is a b&w photo of such a patterned SE5 and the legend suggests this is A4853, an aircraft received from 56 sqn where it had been painted red (!), it goes on to say the headrest was repainted blue in 60 sqn to match the flight colour. So which is right? All blue outlined in white pattern ? Or, was it red with blue headrest ?

These colours were done away with on August 26th as 'not approved by wing' so are short lived.

**Dom S** · 10-23-2015 05:48

I think it was just badly worded, and only the headrest had been red in 56 squadron, not the aircraft - I've only ever seen evidence of one red SE5a with a combat unit (Duncan Grinnell-Milne's), and that was very late war, getting a red nose before the armistice, and all-red scheme shortly after. There was also at least one Aussie one, but that was a training machine with 6th AFC - instructors' aircraft quite commonly got weird and extravagant colour schemes, but in combat units they were usually stamped out rather forcefully....

**flash** · 10-23-2015 06:00

Thanks Dom, maybe that's why Soden's kite was slightly different from Bishop's - his may already have had the blue headrest when they did the paint jobs on the nose & fuselages... sod it - paint it PC10 !!

LOOP · 10-23-2015 06:39

PC-10 it will be

And I see if I'll do a blue headrest......

Thanks guys

**gully_raker** · 10-23-2015 16:38

Originally Posted by LOOP

Do anyone know why Soden and Bishop share the same colour scheme?
Other pilots have the same pattern but diferent colours.

For a very short time period that Squadron used different colours for its flights of SE5's (Note not SE5a's).
Blue, Yellow & Red in the same patten as Bishop's & Soden's.
HQ quickly squashed it & made them repaint in PC10.
I use Vellejo brown violet 70887 for my PC 10.

Sample aircraft below.

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**Teaticket** · 10-23-2015 16:51

Vallejo brown violet is my choice for PC-10 too. Nice HP Baz!

**fast.git** · 10-23-2015 18:56

Originally Posted by Dom S

PS - This is the colour my preferred mix comes out as:

Hey Dom, great looking Camel!

How does your preferred formula match the PC10 color of the Ares Bristol Fighters? It looks a little "lighter," but it's hard to tell from here.

**Dom S** · 10-23-2015 20:35

Yep, it is definitely lighter than the Ares Bristol - it's pretty close to the old Wings Of War SE5a, but just a smidgen lighter.

**Boney10** · 10-23-2015 23:58

I take it the "dumbells" are of your own make Dom, dont suppose we can look forward to a set of these appearing in your shop at all ?
Dumbells, boomerangs and zigzags in white, are markings that are not readily available in 1/144.
I have found Squares and triangles ok but not the above