Last night we had an issue over whether the Roland could bring one or both its guns to bear on the Bristol Fighter as per the images below:
What say you all?
Calling the shots
Last night we had an issue over whether the Roland could bring one or both its guns to bear on the Bristol Fighter as per the images below:
What say you all?
How about neither - it's outside of both the front and the rear arc's of the Roland...Originally Posted by Albert Ross
Sapiens qui vigilat "He is wise who watches"
If you are using altitude, isn't the reargunner of the Roland able to fire 360 on targets at the same level or higher?
I'd say the front gun CAN - the ruler is not correctly aligned on the overhead photo - a little straighter and it will touch the Biff's base.Last night we had an issue over whether the Roland could bring one or both its guns to bear on the Bristol Fighter as per the images below:
What say you all?
Therefore the rear gun CANNOT (even if you are using altitude, the front and rear guns cannot engage the same target at the same time).
Correct!
You win a cookie!
jummieCorrect!
You win a cookie!
Not quite correct PG, 360 on targets higher but not at same level.
As Stuart said "as per the images", didn't mention altitude and is using the arcs of fire I take it he's not using altitude
I thought the same but as he said 'as per the image'....!
Is that something from the RAP Tim as it doesn't say that in the old rules I have for the Roland ?
(Though it makes sense!)
Last edited by flash; 09-21-2015 at 07:51.
Sapiens qui vigilat "He is wise who watches"
I know you want a ruling on what gun can fire, but I want to suggest that splitting hairs to the level of the photographs above may not be in the best interest of your game. I play WOG with my kids a fair bit, and planes always get nudged, not set down straight, etc. There is a fair argument that somewhere in the game the plane got moved slightly wrong, etc. leading up to your photograph. So my point is, do you want to argue millimeters? Or is it better to roll a die to let fate determine if the back gun can hit or not? The game goes on, you shake your fist and say I'll get you next time, and you play another game.
I'm not trying to be flippant or offend here, this is based my experience of years of gaming and arguing rules. I learned the hard way that it comes down to the golden rule of gaming: The objective of the game is to win, but the point of playing the game is to have fun.
I don't remember where it came from (no RAP rules to hand at the moment!) but it applies to the new 2-seaters, and therefore should apply to the Roland as well.
The rear gun on the Biff, the Halberstadt CLII and the Hannover CLIII can fire 360 degrees at targets at a higher level, but the front gun cannot join in on the same HIGHER target.
At the SAME level, the Roland CAN fire both front and rear guns at the same target if both can hit the same target's base (but in different locations) owing to left/right yaw.
My solution does just that - one gun possibly can, one possibly can't, so allow one to shoot, and move on.
As to rolling a die, NEVER!
One of the main attractions this game holds for me is the fact that there are NO DICE
I'm with Diceslinger on this one: roll a die, appeal to the gamemaster, or somehow make a decision & move on. Interminable rules lawyering take a lot of the fun out of games.
Flying Helut: I don't know what wrong with rolling a die to make the decision: like most gamers, I have and carry around with me, a substantial dice pouch. I find it handiest when I have to use it as a sap upside the heads of interminable rules lawyers...
I have never encountered a single "Wings" player who could be said to fall into the "rules lawyer" category................
It's just my personal opinion, but the thing that is wrong with rolling a die is that there are no dice in "Wings", and THAT'S GREAT!
I often draw a damage card, higher gets the decision, or use some other card-driven random generator, but will not use dice in a dice-free game.
For one thing, I have FAR too many dice to carry around!
It's just my personal policy - I have no problem with others using them.
For me, it's NO DICE!!!
You realize you just said that to someone with a handle of diceslinger. Go fer yer guns pardner
It was deliberate...........You realize you just said that to someone with a handle of diceslinger. Go fer yer guns pardner
heres how our group handles such situations. 1st we use a house rule for the roland, halberstad and hannover after looking at pics of actual a/c it was clear that they were all designed to allow the rear gunner to fire over the top wing. all also have a deflector hoop or some sort of projection on the top wing to deflect the barrel of the observers gun to prevent it from hitting the a/cs propeller tips so it cant, in effect fire directly forward. we allow the rear gun to cover everything the front arc doesnt. since the front firing arc is as such, instead of a straight line, acknowledging that the pilot need but give her a little rudder or stick to bring to bear at targets in front the same would hold true for observers communicating such to the pilot. however since it would be natural and almost 2nd nature for the pilot to line up on anything in front directly in his line of fire the hoop or projection wont allow the rear gunner to bring to bear on anything the pilot is aiming/shooting at. anything else in their arc but not what the pilot is shooting/aiming at even if the target a/c overlaps both firing arcs.
Just like NO Sails!
Ya beat me to it, Baz!
im with you there! dice hate me! and the feeling is mutual!!!!!!I have never encountered a single "Wings" player who could be said to fall into the "rules lawyer" category................
It's just my personal opinion, but the thing that is wrong with rolling a die is that there are no dice in "Wings", and THAT'S GREAT!
I often draw a damage card, higher gets the decision, or use some other card-driven random generator, but will not use dice in a dice-free game.
For one thing, I have FAR too many dice to carry around!
It's just my personal policy - I have no problem with others using them.
For me, it's NO DICE!!!
Thanks Tim, that hadn't registered before so one to bear in mind
Sapiens qui vigilat "He is wise who watches"
We were using simplified altitude, but here both planes were at the same level. The German rear gunner would have been able to fire as the Tommy flew through his arc anyway, but the question was really whether the forward gun could engage simultaneously as the ruler was touching the corner of the base but not actually crossing it. Sort of like a goal line decision in football.
Effectively this was the last shot of the game as the Biff was down to a single damage point so we allowed both shots and called it for the Hun.
Thanks for all the input!
If the Bristol Fighter's base is in range and in the firing arc of both guns, you can shoot with two guns.
That's new to me (or I have heared it before and forgot), but it makes sense.
That's a gentlemen's agreement, Stuart.
Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!
We do the same, both for ease of adjudication, and we figured that we'd want our rear-facing observers to let the pilot worry about those targets directly to the front, and keep their eyes on those trying to sneak behind!
We do allow the observer a 360 degree arc of fire for targets at a higher altitude.
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