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Thread: Maneuverabiliity over speed

  1. #1

    Default Maneuverabiliity over speed

    Looks like speed is overrated!

    Maybe everyone has already seen this before?

    Name:  F-35-GOES-DOWN-750x400.jpg
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  2. #2

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    I did read the article where the pic is coming from, I really had a good laugh! "Curse you, Red Baron!"

  3. #3

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    I think that this picture or a related article may have featured in another thread ... But nevertheless it is still funny. Especially as this time Snoopy has been added to the bottom right hand corner!

    Speed is King is a misconception many make as in a way increases in speed have come hand in hand with technology developments IMHO and yet manoeuverability has always been there: Especially since WW1 where it was viewed more as agility. However you only have to play WW2 / WGS a few times to see in action and in a visual learning-friendly way how an aircraft with a speed factor behind it potentially continues to outrun it's target ... Which turns behind it and fires! Not long ago I set up a scenario where a Gloster Sea Gladiator had to bring down whatever I threw at it being the aircraft my WGS playing career began with six months ago. First type drawn from the hat: Messerschmitt Bf.110C-7 desert fighter. On the third attempt the Gladiator brought the Messerschmitt down successfully!

    I think the same can be achieved playing WW1 / WGF with the correct combination of aircraft types ...

  4. #4

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    Yes i have seen it but not the little doghouse in lower right corner

  5. #5

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    The reason speed is considered king is because it gives the faster plane the choice of when to start and stop the engagement. You can then do this multiple times on the same target, negating it's maneuverability advantage to a large degree. This is where the boom and zoom tactic came from really.

    After Vietnam, maneuverability pretty much went out the window as the fighting went beyond visual range for the most part.

  6. #6

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    When air forces started using missiles, manuevreability was over. Of course, it is beautiful to see Su-27 while it doing a Cobra maneuvre, but the point is in radars today

  7. #7

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    I also missed the Dog House on the original. Thanks for the rehash Peter.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  8. #8

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    In the context of WGF....

    Many's the time I've left the field to fight another day after my crate has been shot up, leaving a maneuverable but slower opponent behind.

    Many's the time my opponent has cashed in his chips because he was too slow to get away when he got the worst of it.

    Many's the time my crate has shot my opponent to pieces, but he managed to escape because I had no speed advantage.

    The real challenge is when your opponent is both faster, and more maneuverable. Then you have to rely on low cunning, but a bit of luck helps too when trying to get away. You may get the first opponent, but the second will probably get you. It's less of an issue in 1-on-1 duels.

  9. #9

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    Funny that the article mentions the F35 losing to the Red Baron... thats not his plane! I guess the general public think any red triplane is the Baron.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    In the context of WGF....

    Many's the time I've left the field to fight another day after my crate has been shot up, leaving a maneuverable but slower opponent behind.

    Many's the time my opponent has cashed in his chips because he was too slow to get away when he got the worst of it.

    Many's the time my crate has shot my opponent to pieces, but he managed to escape because I had no speed advantage.

    The real challenge is when your opponent is both faster, and more maneuverable. Then you have to rely on low cunning, but a bit of luck helps too when trying to get away. You may get the first opponent, but the second will probably get you. It's less of an issue in 1-on-1 duels.
    That hits the nail on the head.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    The reason speed is considered king is because it gives the faster plane the choice of when to start and stop the engagement. You can then do this multiple times on the same target, negating it's maneuverability advantage to a large degree. This is where the boom and zoom tactic came from really.

    After Vietnam, maneuverability pretty much went out the window as the fighting went beyond visual range for the most part.
    No need to say it twice.

    I think of the Zero vs any later Allied fighter. The Zero was great as long as there was not a high speed advantage held by allied fighters.

  12. #12

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    Manoeuvrability is great in a game, like WGF / WGS, but "speed is king" when having it means you can get to your target, accomplish your mission, and then return WITHOUT BEING INTERCEPTED.

    Makes for a RUBBISH gaming experience, but is priceless in a real shooting war.

  13. #13

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    yep speed is king. were it not true all those experienced italian amd japanese flying slower but much more maneuverable a/c vs allied pilots wouldve fared better than they did. yes generally the better pilot will win in any given dogfight but speed is a decisive factor when all other things are basically equal.

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    If anyone remembers The Final Countdown, the two 1941 Zeroes came off very badly against two Tomcats:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyjNInIH4Hw


    Ouch!

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    That's quite a good film there Barry - it was a ground breaker in it's day (1980 I think) ...

    This is the USS Nimitz ... Where the hell are we??!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussietonka View Post
    That's quite a good film there Barry - it was a ground breaker in it's day (1980 I think) ...

    This is the USS Nimitz ... Where the hell are we??!

    Some of the special effects were done in the UK. A friend of mine was a child when his brother worked on it and he was given the small model of the US carrier used in the 'time tunnel' sequence to play with. He broke it! He now regrets that as it would clearly be worth a bit now!

  17. #17

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    There was a story in a comic, many years ago, might have been "Warlord", where a WW1 display team touring Asia became caught up in a hot war, and found themselves fighting against jets.....................can't remember the name of the story, though.

  18. #18

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    I remember a story from a comic where a biplane was being used to strafe troops in Korea and the Allied fighters could not shoot it down because it could out-turn them. However the hero got hold of an old Australian Wackett trainer, fitted machine guns and shot it down.

  19. #19

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    With my games living to fight another day is not the object. Best to match the planes before a fight otherwise if all pilots have good skills it can get boring.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussietonka View Post
    I
    Speed is King is a misconception many make as in a way increases in speed have come hand in hand with technology developments IMHO and yet manoeuverability has always been there: Especially since WW1 where it was viewed more as agility.
    Yes, and that is the biggest flaw in this game:certain late war fighters like the SPAD XIII and Albatros DV suck on ice against older, more maneuverable machine that can literally dance rings around them. Even the Brisfit would be a dead duck without its rear gunner - hardly realistic.

    The maneuver decks for these advanced planes IMO should be designed with two-speed cards (like the WWII aircraft), otherwise they are flying around as if their throttle is jammed open all the time

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Ross View Post
    Yes, and that is the biggest flaw in this game:certain late war fighters like the SPAD XIII and Albatros DV suck on ice against older, more maneuverable machine that can literally dance rings around them. Even the Brisfit would be a dead duck without its rear gunner - hardly realistic.

    The maneuver decks for these advanced planes IMO should be designed with two-speed cards (like the WWII aircraft), otherwise they are flying around as if their throttle is jammed open all the time
    Actually I find quite the opposite - unless I'm forced to fly the SPAD (or equivalent) on a very small table, the speed advantage versus the slower turnfighters (i.e. Dr. 1) is very significant. Two WoG mats side by side on their long edges is just about enough space to let the SPAD come into its own... any more is gravy.

    And of course there's always the stall card if you want to go slower

  22. #22

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    The trick when flying a Spad or an Albatros is to use it's speed right. It is easy to be lured into the shortrage combat that the Dr1-pilot wants.
    And as you say Steve. You need space.

  23. #23

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    Use the stall Stuart, use the stall.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Use the stall Stuart, use the stall.
    Rob.
    +1

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Use the stall Stuart, use the stall.
    Rob.
    +2 (but not back-to-back; illegal manoeuver!)



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