Dfs 230 Assault Glider - Model and Card?

[OldGuy59]

Anyone got a model of this plane? Someone just asked for a card (Probably for this: Operazione Merkur - Creta 1940).

Fiddler's Green has a card model (Link: Fiddlers Green - DFS-230 Glider).

Surprise, it was armed!


The DFS-230 went into battle with a single 7.92 mm MG-15 machine gun mounted aft of the cockpit and two 7.92 mm MG-34 fixed forward-firing machine guns mounted on fuselage sides. (Link: rcgroups.com - Build Log DFS-230 Attack Glider)

For the card:


House rules for gliders?

[OldGuy59]

So, If anyone needed one of these...


Background: Malema Airfield, Crete, courtesy of Google Earth.

Stats are estimated. Canvas covered, tubular-metal [Edit: not wood, after all] frame, no armor, no engines.

Speed is a complete guess, but would be towed by a Ju-52 at a max airspeed of 200 kph. It had the second best glide ratio of any WWII glider (18), and used a parachute or rockets (in the nose) to shorten the landing.

Capacity: 9 equipped troops + 270 kg, or 1,200 kgs.

Empty weight: 860 kg (1,896 lb)
Gross weight: 2,040 kg (4,497 lb)

[csadn]

The DFS-230 went into battle with a single 7.92 mm MG-15 machine gun mounted aft of the cockpit and two 7.92 mm MG-34 fixed forward-firing machine guns mounted on fuselage sides.

Um -- the fuselage MGs weren't able to be fired from the cockpit; the pic even shows they weren't loaded. They had to be located outside due to the lack of space inside the glider, to be grabbed and loaded once on the ground.

Movement rules?

While towed, towplane may not perform any diamond-marked maneuvers. Glider is always located such that glider's forward-edge is adjacent to towplane's rear-edge. Release is performed after a movement. On release, glider may perform a maximum of two non-diamond moves; it then performs two "stall" moves; then it stops where it is. If it stops in contact with trees, buildings, or other solid objects on the ground, it takes one D damage chit.

[clipper1801]

The elves dug out the Luftwaffe Bible, William Green's book, and there is much on this strange bird. What impressed me was the sheer number of them built, (over 1,000!); and the success of their uses. Several were augmented with a pair of MG 34 infantry machine guns attached to the sides of the nose "to provide suppressive fire during the landing approach." The photos do not show them loaded though . . . so they were used and quickly dismounted for the ground assault phase . . . must have a few of these as well. Thanks Mike!

[clipper1801]

I also like the rigid tow rig used with a Ju52 tow plane, now where have those gotten off to . . . or maybe an He-111Z those are here as well . . .

[OldGuy59]

Um -- the fuselage MGs weren't able to be fired from the cockpit; the pic even shows they weren't loaded. They had to be located outside due to the lack of space inside the glider, to be grabbed and loaded once on the ground.

Movement rules?

While towed, towplane may not perform any diamond-marked maneuvers. Glider is always located such that glider's forward-edge is adjacent to towplane's rear-edge. Release is performed after a movement. On release, glider may perform a maximum of two non-diamond moves; it then performs two "stall" moves; then it stops where it is. If it stops in contact with trees, buildings, or other solid objects on the ground, it takes one D damage chit.

So you say!

What about this?

Source link: www.rcgroups.com - Build Log DFS-230 Attack Glider

And with the glide ratio of this plane, it would get lots more than two moves, depending on release altitude. This isn't a rock, it's a really good glider. It could dive at 180 kph, too! It needed a parachute or rockets in the nose to slow it down for short-field landings, so it could move at a good clip.

[Stumptonian]

Your work on cards is just amazing, Mike.

[csadn]

One obvious problem: The MG15 used a "twin-snail" drum; and based on the pics, there's no way to mount the drum on that rig -- no clearance between the inboard drum and the fuselage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_15

And with the glide ratio of this plane, it would get lots more than two moves, depending on release altitude. This isn't a rock, it's a really good glider. It could dive at 180 kph, too! It needed a parachute or rockets in the nose to slow it down for short-field landings, so it could move at a good clip.

180 KPH is "dead slow" in this game, so it's not going to be moving that fast.

The "retro-rockets" were for extremely-short-field landings (cliff sides; football fields; etc.), not because the glider had a high landing speed. (Were they ever used outside test facilities?)

And I was dealing with basic rules only -- no altitude. Using altitude, length of glide would depend on altitude at release.

[OldGuy59]

One obvious problem: The MG15 used a "twin-snail" drum; and based on the pics, there's no way to mount the drum on that rig -- no clearance between the inboard drum and the fuselage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_15


...

Chris,
The forward-firing guns are MG-34s, not MG-15s, therefore, could be belt-fed. The MG-15 "twin-snail" drum mags are not an issue. The guns could be fired, and were installed, complete with muzzle-blast deflectors, so as to not ignite the canvas skin. I don't particularly care how the guns were loaded, only that the Germans had provisions to make them work. I don't expect they were worth many phases/turns of firing, only one or two phases of suppressive fire while landing, really. In any event, there is a front firing arc. It could be used to hit a plane, under really lucky curcumstances, if at all.

PS: I suspect, being that the pilot was the only person that could reach the forward-firing guns, that only one was fired at a time. Use one until it ran out of ammo, and switch to the second, if there was time.

[flash]

So you say!
What about this?

Source link: www.rcgroups.com - Build Log DFS-230 Attack Glider

That is a great image Mike ! You are right, of course, that is a MG34 and it could use belt, drum or saddle drum methods of loading. In this image it appears to be loaded as you can see the metal ammo belt hanging down just in front of the operators hand and if you look carefully that might be a drum mounted on the far side of it where that white line stops. (Obviously on the left hand side the drum would be outboard). There also seems to be some sort of cable arrangement at the butt of the weapon which may have been used to charge the weapon from inside the glider.
I don't think that this was pilot operated but rather something intended for use by the front passenger(s) the face of one I think I can just about make out in the small square window behind the gun.

And as for no room inside for the MG34...

Well...^^^^^^^^ there you go Chris, they squeezed that one in !

And this glider lost in Operation Rösselsprung in 1944 was equipped with them so the idea made it to combat at least once !

[flash]

If you check here someone has translated the manual pertaining to the use of these MG34. As the author himself notes: "I had a hard time with translating this, since I have no technical knowledge whatsoever"
but part IV C describes well enough how it was intended to be used:
"The pilot aims during the approach with the rigid sight at the target and gives the instruction by command to the man sitting behind him for firing and for adjusting the fire. The operation of the trigger is handled by the man sitting behind the pilot via the hand hole."
It also appears it was belt fed from an ammo box behind the pilots seat. Fascinating subject !

And one for clipper's elves that blew my mind....

[Jager]

I'm pretty sure that this was a landing area suppression MG, not for aerial combat. Given how a heavily loaded glider would fly, even a good one like this, dogfighting or even maneuvering for a shot at an active target would be beyond the realm of likely. The best shot I would give it is a straight 12 O'clock line, and the target must be at the same altitude, and then only 1 A chit at short range.
As for glide rules........
Karl

[Dom S]

I really think you're barking up the wrong tree here chaps. First, as Karl says, the MG34 mountings were solely for a wild spray of the LZ on final approach. Second, you don't launch a glider assault in the face of air opposition.... If an allied fighter appears on the same table as one of these, it's already an allied win....

[OldGuy59]

I really think you're barking up the wrong tree here chaps. First, as Karl says, the MG34 mountings were solely for a wild spray of the LZ on final approach. Second, you don't launch a glider assault in the face of air opposition.... If an allied fighter appears on the same table as one of these, it's already an allied win....

Well, all good, but there is a forward firing arc, and a bit of yaw on an approach could give it the 45 degree spread. House rule it for ground staffing only, if desired.

I thought that the first passenger would be using the top swivel mounted MG-15. But, if the first passenger is hunched over to reach the MG-34s, the second could operate the MG-15. Another house rule?

[OldGuy59]

Thought I'd share this:

You have received a notification for reputation:
Reason: We learn something new every day ! Thanks for this Mike.
Sender: flash
Your Post: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...351#post364351

Thanks, Dave. I have Carlo [Mad Charlie] to thank for forcing me to research this particular obscure plane. I go looking for background on a plane, to get card info (units, crews, colour schemes, etc...), and I learn all sorts of esoteric things, by happenstance.

So, yes, I get to learn lots, too.

Although, it would be nice, occasionally, if people provided all the info with the card request, too.

[flash]

I really think you're barking up the wrong tree here chaps. First, as Karl says, the MG34 mountings were solely for a wild spray of the LZ on final approach. Second, you don't launch a glider assault in the face of air opposition.... If an allied fighter appears on the same table as one of these, it's already an allied win....

I think the only suggestion of air to air was this from Mike:

only one or two phases of suppressive fire while landing, really. In any event, there is a front firing arc. It could be used to hit a plane, under really lucky curcumstances, if at all.

And I would say 'not at all' as it's relying on a bloke behind the pilot to pull the trigger on command - Everything else mentioned was about the guns and whether they are functional in situ or not, and apparently they were, so we're barking up the right tree... just maybe for the wrong reason ?!

[csadn]

I'm pretty sure that this was a landing area suppression MG, not for aerial combat. Given how a heavily loaded glider would fly, even a good one like this, dogfighting or even maneuvering for a shot at an active target would be beyond the realm of likely. The best shot I would give it is a straight 12 O'clock line, and the target must be at the same altitude, and then only 1 A chit at short range.

You've hit on the real problem. (I keep getting my MGs confused.) Really, they couldn't hit anything save via blind luck; so is there any actual point in cluttering the rulebook with another useless special rule? Plus, as Dom points out: Gliderborne assaults in the face of enemy air opposition means "dead gliders scattered far and wide".

As for glide rules........
Karl

For games using altitude: The glider performs a non-stall move; then it either drops one altitude level and performs another non-stall move, or performs a stall move (meaning on its move after that one, it must drop one level and perform a normal move). The move it makes when landing must be a straight-stall.

Length of glide is thus determined by what altitude the glider is at when released.

[OldGuy59]

Thanks to Dave [clipper1801], there is now a model of this plane: Pour me a DFS 230 Assault Glider!

Entered service in 1938, used up to May, 1945.

Scenario suggestions:
The DFS 230 was the main equipment of the German airborne units, and it was used in the famous
Attacks on:
a. the Belgian fortress Eben-Emael, May 10, 1940
b. on CreteMay 20, 1941
c. Campo Imperatore Hotel, Gran Sasso massif, Operation Eiche (“Oak”) on Sept. 12, 1943, the liberation of Mussolin

Supply missions:
Urgent resupply to forward elements of the Afrika Korps in Libya.
Supplying encircled forces on the Eastern Front (the Demyansk Pocket, the Kholm Pocket, Stalingrad, and the defenders of Festung Budapest (until February 12, 1945)).
It was used right up to the end of the war, for instance, supplying Berlin and Breslau until May 1945.

Sources: Wikipedia - DFS 230
Defense Media Network.com - DFS 230 Assault Glider/

[clipper1801]

If you check here someone has translated the manual pertaining to the use of these MG34. As the author himself notes: "I had a hard time with translating this, since I have no technical knowledge whatsoever"
but part IV C describes well enough how it was intended to be used:
"The pilot aims during the approach with the rigid sight at the target and gives the instruction by command to the man sitting behind him for firing and for adjusting the fire. The operation of the trigger is handled by the man sitting behind the pilot via the hand hole."
It also appears it was belt fed from an ammo box behind the pilots seat. Fascinating subject !

And one for clipper's elves that blew my mind....

They are on it! First floats added to a glider in my limited experience . . .

[Marechallannes]

I'm pretty sure that this was a landing area suppression MG, not for aerial combat...

Exactly.

I read the reports of the glider landings from operation Rösselsprung.

Can't imagine an air to air use of those MGs.

The gliders were dropped and went down very straight like a rollercoaster at the beginning.

The pilots tried to get as much speed as possible for the upswing right before the landing to make a point landing.