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Thread: ME262 - how about using double maneuvers?

  1. #1

    Default ME262 - how about using double maneuvers?

    I was thinking about super fast aircraft like Me262.
    How about planning two maneuvers in stack on top of each other (creating one long maneuver) and then go
    airplane > top maneuver > bottom maneuver > airplane.

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    - one speed for one stack (double card)
    - this should not change consecutve maneuvers and their speeds, you just have to plan carefully - for example 180° tuirn in Immelmann shouldn't be on top, since the following straight card must be slow. And so on...
    - two steep maneuvers in a row may or may not be possible
    Last edited by Honza; 08-11-2015 at 22:37.

  2. #2

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    Simple and effective, like most good ideas. Im sure that some of the more knowledgeable folks on here will come up with reasons why its not right but i'm giving it a go. Sounds great fun. Just a thought because the 262 isnt twice as fast as other planeshow about just playing two cards without a plane in between? I take it you're using a low maneuverability deck?

  3. #3

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    Thank you, this was jsut a rough idea to start with. It is so hot here i coudn't sleep so i was thinking...
    Now we can start tuning it a bit - i'd sure agree on some sort of a low maneuverability deck for starters.
    Yesterday, we played B-17 + Mustang against three Doras , which was completely in favour of Americans (Mustang basically did all three Doras, who were concentrating on the bomber), and so we can try similar thing against two Me262 just to test it.

    EDIT: I've just called to our Wing war-machine expert Michal to come up with something adequate, haha, so let's see what he can come up with
    Last edited by Honza; 08-12-2015 at 01:08.

  4. #4

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    This a nice food for thought, Jan. I do like your idea. But let's try another solution.
    This is a superior plane as fast speed is concerned. However, planning & playing two cards in a row may send it too far from where you want it to be (4 cards total!).
    It may be seen as too far for gaming puroposes.
    What about not 4 cards, but 3...
    The acceleration...but still under player's control...
    An idea cane to my mind brought roughly from X-Wing miniatures: BOOST ACTION.
    The Me 262 player may always use 1 additional maneuver card after playing every maneuver card to boost the Schwalbe. The additional card should be one of the three: Straight low speed, Right turn low speed or Left turn low speed up to pilot's choice. It would reflect a better control of the speed of the aircraft, better performance and acceleration that jet engines offered. It would also favour the jet fighter over the others as far as speed control is the crucial factor.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    This is a superior plane as fast speed is concerned. However, planning & playing two cards in a row may send it too far from where you want it to be (4 cards total!).
    It may be seen as too far for gaming puroposes.
    You may be right Andy, i have to check it out first. So far we have played Me262 with custom, really long maneuver cards Michal created. This may work the same, but i cannot tell without trying out.

    We shall give a try to both ideas.

  6. #6

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    BTW Jan, where do you source 262 1/200 mini?
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  7. #7

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    A local maker, but Michal got also some at AIM i guess and now he is developing his own pouring aparatus

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    A local maker, but Michal got also some at AIM i guess and now he is developing his own pouring aparatus
    Jan would love to see some pics of your trials with both your guys ideas. Plus I would like to see the models.

    Thomas

  9. #9

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    AIM David Schmid marks the 262 as To Be Released...
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  10. #10

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    Something to consider also (and, yes, the early jets is on my "to think about" list ) is could the Me.262 to a reversal. Given it's problems with flame-outs and exploding engines if too much acceleration was applied, I'm not so sure. But it is something to research.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Something to consider also (and, yes, the early jets is on my "to think about" list ) is could the Me.262 to a reversal. Given it's problems with flame-outs and exploding engines if too much acceleration was applied, I'm not so sure. But it is something to research.
    Karl
    Good point.
    So after every BOOST action the player should draw two A damage counters. If the engine damage counter is drawn, no further BOOST action is allowed. Other damage do not count.
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Good point.
    So after every BOOST action the player should draw two A damage counters. If the engine damage counter is drawn, no further BOOST action is allowed. Other damage do not count.
    You know, if you keep posting these ideas, I'll just have to think about it earlier
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    AIM David Schmid marks the 262 as To Be Released...
    You will find that Dave's website is not necessarily up to date regarding availability. It's worth dropping him an email to check.

    Interested in the outcome of these deliberations, as I am currently painting two HBM 262A-1a U4s. So, how many damage chits for a 50mm anti-tank cannon then? I'm assuming being hit by this could really spoil your day.
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    You will find that Dave's website is not necessarily up to date regarding availability. It's worth dropping him an email to check.

    Interested in the outcome of these deliberations, as I am currently painting two HBM 262A-1a U4s. So, how many damage chits for a 50mm anti-tank cannon then? I'm assuming being hit by this could really spoil your day.
    Well, you could default to a D chit; given the RoF for them, I wouldn't let them hit planes that are maneuvering. Against formation bombers........need a house rule (add to list )
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  15. #15

    Rabbit 3's Avatar Squadron Leader Scotland.
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    One thing about early jets like the Me 262, Gloster Meteor and so on.
    While their maximum speed was a good deal higher than the piston-engined fighters in service the rate of accelleration available with early jet engines was often poorer.
    This is why the `262 was so vulnerable to P-51`s while landing or taking off, the Mustang`s could accellerate or slow down a lot faster than they could!

  16. #16

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    The thing is to give it the about-right maneuverability. We are dealing with two cards maneuvering = two possible turns connected to each other.
    30+30=60, 60+30=90, 60+60=120.
    - 90 deg composed turn seems to be too much although the extended path may let it happen without being overpowered
    - 120 deg is a nonsense
    - 60 feels about right but then it does need reversal with disregard to the real capability.

    The idea of allowing to make over-the-top maneuvers + A/B penalty is great and brings the push on your luck element to the game.
    Last edited by Honza; 08-12-2015 at 06:32.

  17. #17

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    I like the idea to add always a slow straight before executing the planed maneuvers.



    The Me262s that joined the air war in end 1944 hadn't that much teething problems that you need to check their faultless engine working during a game.

    I know some games had such rules for Tiger II tanks (Tide of Iron = roll a dice for engine failing after movement), but I have no reliable information that the Me262 had such problems when the serial production went to combat.
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    I like the idea to add always a slow straight before executing the planed maneuvers.
    I like this, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit 3 View Post
    One thing about early jets like the Me 262, Gloster Meteor and so on.
    While their maximum speed was a good deal higher than the piston-engined fighters in service the rate of accelleration available with early jet engines was often poorer.
    This is why the `262 was so vulnerable to P-51`s while landing or taking off, the Mustang`s could accellerate or slow down a lot faster than they could!
    I was under the impression that the 262's acceleration was only an issue (relative to the P-51 and other piston-engine fighters) at take-off and landing. Once at altitude, it's acceleration, rate of climb, and top speed were all superior. It was in a turning battle and/or low-and-slow that P-51s were able to best a 262 (if we assume that the variability of pilot skill is removed from the equation).

  19. #19

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    Exactly, Chrsitopher.
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    This a nice food for thought, Jan. I do like your idea. But let's try another solution.
    This is a superior plane as fast speed is concerned. However, planning & playing two cards in a row may send it too far from where you want it to be (4 cards total!).
    It may be seen as too far for gaming puroposes.
    What about not 4 cards, but 3...
    The acceleration...but still under player's control...
    An idea cane to my mind brought roughly from X-Wing miniatures: BOOST ACTION.
    The Me 262 player may always use 1 additional maneuver card after playing every maneuver card to boost the Schwalbe. The additional card should be one of the three: Straight low speed, Right turn low speed or Left turn low speed up to pilot's choice. It would reflect a better control of the speed of the aircraft, better performance and acceleration that jet engines offered. It would also favour the jet fighter over the others as far as speed control is the crucial factor.
    I like the sound of this but have we bottomed the core deck to use, presumably with 60 degree turns removed, what deck do folks think is the best to use?

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    I was under the impression that the 262's acceleration was only an issue (relative to the P-51 and other piston-engine fighters) at take-off and landing. Once at altitude, it's acceleration, rate of climb, and top speed were all superior. It was in a turning battle and/or low-and-slow that P-51s were able to best a 262 (if we assume that the variability of pilot skill is removed from the equation).
    No, acceleration was always an issue with the Me-262. When it was at speed, it couldn't be caught, and it's RoC was great. It, however, couldn't pump too much fuel into the engines or risk fire and explosion.
    I checked the Fighting Wings charts (lots of hard data here), and when compared to the P-51, the Mustang's acceleration is between 2 and 3 times the Swallows at all speeds and altitudes.
    Now, I checked it's turning ability, in this case, the minimum speed a type of turn can be made at, and it's profile is almost identical to the Fw-190D. the roll rate is of course much worst (almost double), so the extreme side slips would be out. But a maneuver deck patterned on the Dora would not be out of line.

    To bring up a subject that really needs it's own thread: the ability of planes in WGS to go from what is essentially cruise speed to top speed in a very short period means that some thinking needs to be done here. The Swallow's power numbers (per FW) aren't much different than most other 2 engine planes, certainly better than bombers. They are much worst than single engine fighters.
    Thoughts?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    I like the idea to add always a slow straight before executing the planed maneuvers.
    I was doing some measuring and this actually looks like the way (not sure if it has to be limited to a straight though). If we want to plan two composite maneuvers using one of the existing decks, we will have to have one slow maneuver to give Me262 realistic speed.

    This will kind of go with Andy's idea too. I was thinking about it and being allowed to choose an additional maneuver would be overpovered in this game. I still like the idea of being able to make a little crazy maneuvers and get a damage penalty though. That is the most excellent idea.

  23. #23

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    All right i have done some quick calculations on what deck would simulate the about-right speed of Me262, while you plan the way described above.

    1. The fast straight is 6cm long for airplanes with max. speed somewhere between 560-600 km/h. So lets say i take an average number 580.
    2. Max. speed of Me 262 is about 870km/h.
    3. A simple linear rule of proportion tells you that we need 9cm long straight to simulate a fast straight of Me262.
    4. If the Me262 fast straight shall be simulated by a composite of two cards, preferably from the same maneuver set, concretely by one slow and one fast straight - then E deck, gives me 9.2cm.

    wrong calculation, see below
    Last edited by Honza; 08-13-2015 at 13:11.

  24. #24

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    Hardcore calculations, Honzo. Please post an AAR how the fights with the jets are handled that way.
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  25. #25

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    Yep, i will . I would like to add the rule of risking + penalty, where the penalty token can be B + whatever picture is on it, and smoke and motor would be treated as fire.
    Just a suicide-type idea.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    Yep, i will . I would like to add the rule of risking + penalty, where the penalty token can be B + whatever picture is on it, and smoke and motor would be treated as fire.
    Just a suicide-type idea.
    That is quite all right and fair, Honzo. There is never enough of adrenaline in an air battle
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  27. #27

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    Nice job Honzo
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    All right i have done some quick calculations...
    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    ...linear rule of proportion tells you...
    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    ...then E deck, gives me 9.2cm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Hardcore calculations, Honzo.
    Absolutely! And much appreciated. Looking forward to hearing how the E* deck plays...

  29. #29

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    When you calculate the Me262's fast straight length from Mustang's fast straight length (= 703km/h, 7.7cm straight), you get 9.5 cm.
    So E deck is right in the middle between the small and large card aproximation. Nice and comfy, haha.

    wrong calculation, see below
    Last edited by Honza; 08-13-2015 at 13:24.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    All right i have done some quick calculations on what deck would simulate the about-right speed of Me262, while you plan the way described above.

    1. The fast straight is 6cm long for airplanes with max. speed somewhere between 560-600 km/h. So lets say i take an average number 580.
    2. Max. speed of Me 262 is about 870km/h.
    3. A simple linear rule of proportion tells you that we need 9cm long straight to simulate a fast straight of Me262.
    4. If the Me262 fast straight shall be simulated by a composite of two cards, preferably from the same maneuver set, concretely by one slow and one fast straight - then E deck, gives me 9.2cm.
    Actually, to reach 870Km/h, you need a length of 18.91cm, so subtracting the base card (6.7cm) you need a card length of 12.2cm. The closest fast/slow is the P deck, coming short by 0.5cm.
    Remember, the base card doesn't increase by 50%.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  31. #31

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    Haha, what a classic mistake i made - i forgot to add the base lenght, shame on me
    Yes you are right, P deck.

  32. #32

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    By the way two 6cm fast straights also make those wanted 12cm. So we can use the small cards of pretty much any standard deck that has 6cm fast straight. Which gives us a lot of options to choose from.

    EDIT: actually, as the 12 cm represens its maximum speed (= two fast straights), we can plan any combination of small card maneuvers, at any speed we like. That woudl move it back to the first post. We just either need a deck with max 30 deg turns (so two of them connected make 60 deg turn), or put some sort of restriction on subsequent turns in one stack. The lowest safe speed of Me262 was apparently about 260km/h, so we have reserves on that side (two slow E maneuvers - for example - would represent something like 600 km/h, stall + slow straight then 480 km/h).
    Last edited by Honza; 08-13-2015 at 14:02.

  33. #33

    Rabbit 3's Avatar Squadron Leader Scotland.
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    Here`s a link to an interesting article about the 262`s engines.
    http://www.stormbirds.com/project/te...echnical_3.htm
    One additional fact that the article dosn`t mention though is that Junkers were largely using engineers from Yugoslavia and other occupied countries to build the engines.

    Being rather smart gentlemen who really objected to working for the Nazi`s they worked out mathematically that if they stole the occasional compressor blade, continually bent and re-bent it until near failure then re-inserted it into the production line they could slip the sabotaged blades past quality control but ensure that every engine built probably had at least one faulty blade in it.
    Last edited by Rabbit 3; 08-14-2015 at 12:22.

  34. #34

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    I restart this interesting Thread about Me 262 with some info.

    I have bought by Shapeways a Squadron of different kind Me 262 of excellent quality (ultra frost detailed).
    The material is quite trasparent.
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    I'll read carefully any opinion because I am studing about a complete set of cards and rules (acceleration, change of altitude, special armament) of Jets planes of WWII.
    When I'll complete 1.0 release I'll submit to your wiewpoints.

    Bye From Italy
    Stay Tuned










    Carlo
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  35. #35

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    Good luck on your reaserch, Carlo .
    It would be a fantastic expansion. Hey, ARES...we are calling for a "The Jets" expansion. There is a businnes to be done!
    I am about to place an order for some AIM Me 262 and eagerly waiting for a good set of rules to field these fast birds.

    Then B-17 sells will increase.
    And we could finally be able to catch up with those bl...y large bomber bases!
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  36. #36

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    Phantom Jets, nice
    I just hope they're not too fragile.
    If in your research, you come up with any reliable turn rates and roll rates, please pass them along.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  37. #37

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    Let me refresh the thread, chaps.
    I have just received 4 AIM Schwalbes and hope to start working on them this weekend. The models look really good.
    So - any rules tested? Any impressions?

    Another problem: AA bomber defense fire against Me 262. Speed factor? What about letting the Schwalbe pilot draw 2 counters and discard one of them?
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  38. #38

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    And a kind request for a Schwalbe stats card, please....

    Uuuppss... I've found them, repeat Echo Base, I have found them.

    The link to my cloud with Me 262 cards is here:

    https://drive.google.com/folderview?...kE&usp=sharing
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Let me refresh the thread, chaps.
    I have just received 4 AIM Schwalbes and hope to start working on them this weekend. The models look really good.
    So - any rules tested? Any impressions?

    Another problem: AA bomber defense fire against Me 262. Speed factor? What about letting the Schwalbe pilot draw 2 counters and discard one of them?
    Kubajs with Bumblebee and BroukPytlik tested the system several times, I played it only once. Try them

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Let me refresh the thread, chaps.
    I have just received 4 AIM Schwalbes and hope to start working on them this weekend. The models look really good.
    So - any rules tested? Any impressions?

    Another problem: AA bomber defense fire against Me 262. Speed factor? What about letting the Schwalbe pilot draw 2 counters and discard one of them?
    I'm still thinking on the matter; not on the front burner right now, due to a week of house projects, prepping to fly dragons, and trying to not think about an upcoming medical exam
    My current thought is to find a suitable existing deck, and expand it to fit the speed of the Schwalbe. I'm guessing that the it will lack a 45 degree turn, and only a shallow SS. Foz provided some turn data I'm looking at, maybe this weekend. As for shots against the high speed targets, that thought is good, but it brings in the whole deflection issue into play Of course the Schwalbe (and Komet, and Natter, and Volksjäger/Spatz) are extreme examples of this.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  41. #41

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    Thinking ahead for jets (all types). Could we use the star wars system, ie different sized templates for different speeds, turns etc? Also for later on use of heat/IR/chaff could a similar system be used ie a token for each missile fired, put onto the target base or damage card with counter measures being used to defeat incoming threat?

    Hope you get what I mean. Those more familiar with the SW system may be able to have a go at this better than I.

    Neil

    (Just a thought)
    See you on the Dark Side......

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Thinking ahead for jets (all types). Could we use the star wars system, ie different sized templates for different speeds, turns etc? Also for later on use of heat/IR/chaff could a similar system be used ie a token for each missile fired, put onto the target base or damage card with counter measures being used to defeat incoming threat?

    Hope you get what I mean. Those more familiar with the SW system may be able to have a go at this better than I.

    Neil

    (Just a thought)
    I know the X-Wing miniatures movement templates system quite well. It is a good idea, Neil. Who can produce these fine acrylic jet maneuver templates?
    (AA do you copy?)
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  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Who can produce these fine acrylic jet maneuver templates?
    Remember the good old days when we cut stuff like that out of cardboard ourselves?

    Oh wait, I still do

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Remember the good old days when we cut stuff like that out of cardboard ourselves?

    Oh wait, I still do
    Of course I do! How creative we were/are!
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  45. #45

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    If you start looking past '45 into Korea, you're looking at a whole new scale too (or REALLY BIG MATTS!)
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Thinking ahead for jets (all types). Could we use the star wars system, ie different sized templates for different speeds, turns etc?
    I've actually played around with some acrylic templates similar to these for something else. With a plane that is not highly maneuverable, they would work great.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    I know the X-Wing miniatures movement templates system quite well. It is a good idea, Neil. Who can produce these fine acrylic jet maneuver templates?
    (AA do you copy?)
    If you guys work out what you want the "deck" to be, I could do these pretty easily I think.

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    I've actually played around with some acrylic templates similar to these for something else. With a plane that is not highly maneuverable, they would work great.

    If you guys work out what you want the "deck" to be, I could do these pretty easily I think.
    That is an excellent news!
    Let's start talking about it.
    Which of the large maneuver cards could be a kinda base? P,Q,R?
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
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