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Thread: Not sure if this is the place or not. Has anyone done anything with Crimson Skies?

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    Default Not sure if this is the place or not. Has anyone done anything with Crimson Skies?

    Has anyone done anything with the Crimson Skies minis and adapting them to this game matrix??? IE: made cards for the aircraft?

    I was just curious, as I have all of the "clicky" versions of the minis that were available or made. I was wanting to perhaps "dismount" them from their current configuration and put them on "Generic" WoW aircraft stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Knowitall View Post
    Has anyone done anything with the Crimson Skies minis and adapting them to this game matrix??? IE: made cards for the aircraft?
    No -- but as the one-time head of the "Secret Masters of Crimson Skies" back when Eric Trautmann was running the show, I can see where someone might think adapting _WoW_ to _CS_ would be a better idea than the movement system originally used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    No -- but as the one-time head of the "Secret Masters of Crimson Skies" back when Eric Trautmann was running the show, I can see where someone might think adapting _WoW_ to _CS_ would be a better idea than the movement system originally used.
    LOL I hear ya.
    And funny but I was thinking along the same lines me damn self!
    Now, who is Artisticly inclined to do the cards? And who has the original system to figure out what turn rate and gun table to use???

    Or should we just make it up or wizzy wig it?

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    I have all the old FASA CS sets, rules and boxes. I think making the arrows might be easiest in some thing like MS projects or a flow chart program. If they were on a solid white background, it would be easy to add them to some background image/art.

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    So Col, since you have the original rules for C.S. does it have a weapons chart or break down by aircraft?? Is there a way of extropolating that info and convert it to WoW format?

    And since I am not at all familiar with the movement rules for the original "Miniatures" game, how difficult would it be to convert them to WoW card movement format?

    I was thinking of using the WW2 version of the WoW game format to account for the the higher speeds and even the addition of high and low speed options.

    For the C.S. aircraft I'm thinking that your generic Aircraft stands would suit best but will need the vertical pegs, or a reasonable equivalent.

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    Yup, played it for a while. I think the WW2 would be the way to go since it was set right before the war. Might even have to find a couple of the boosters if it can be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Knowitall View Post
    So Col, since you have the original rules for C.S. does it have a weapons chart or break down by aircraft?? Is there a way of extropolating that info and convert it to WoW format?
    There are five sizes of gun in the game -- 0.30-cal.; 0.40-cal.; 0.50-cal.; 0.60-cal.; 0.70-cal. -- plus several varieties of rocket -- AP; HE; Flak; Flare; Sonic; Harpoon (like for whales); Drill; and the Beeper/Seeker combo.

    Acft. have three main stats -- Speed (1-5); G-Rating (how many Gs it can pull before having to roll for damage or control loss) (1-5); Acceleration (1-3). They also have armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Knowitall View Post
    And since I am not at all familiar with the movement rules for the original "Miniatures" game, how difficult would it be to convert them to WoW card movement format?

    I was thinking of using the WW2 version of the WoW game format to account for the the higher speeds and even the addition of high and low speed options.
    For _CS_, I could see having some "stock maneuver decks" -- one for each Speed/G-rating combo. That is: Each Straight card would have different marks on it, a la the WW2 _WoW_, and whatever Speed the plane was traveling, its card would be moved to that line. Maneuvers might be printed on different cards, to avoid excessive cluttering of the card.

    So, for instance, if my plane is at Speed 4, and I want to perform a Normal Turn, I would look for a Left Turn card, and perform the Speed-4 iteration of the maneuver on the card, then check to see if I've exceeded my G-Rating.

    I don't really have artistic skills, but let me think on this further; I might have some ideas on how to frob up a deck from _DoW_ for testing purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Knowitall View Post
    For the C.S. aircraft I'm thinking that your generic Aircraft stands would suit best but will need the vertical pegs, or a reasonable equivalent.
    The weird part is: _CS_ never had altitude rules -- the SMOCS wanted to introduce them as an option, but given the epic Bad Timing of _CS_ (a game about the Collapse of America just ahead of the most-contentious election in modern memory; a game romanticizing aerial piracy just before The Great Lawn-darting of 2001; *BRILLLIANT* TIMING, guys), we never had a chance to test them. So, stands might be useful, but pegs would require altitude rules -- and to be blunt, _WoW_'s altitude rules are Rubbish.

    (Sometimes I wonder what happened to the other SMOCS? :P )

  8. #8

    Thumbs up Not sure if this is the place or not. Has anyone done anything with Crimson Skies?

    Personally i wish some one would write a patch so it would run on a new PC. I enjoyed playing the PC game!


    Rich

  9. #9

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    OK, here's what I have so far for a _WoW:CS_ game. Bear in mind: I have no artistic ability, so if someone wants to help out by making cards....

    Turn order: I figure to use the WW2 rules for that, as the period is closer to WW2 than WW1.

    Movement Decks: I've come up with a "generic" deck design -- all planes use this basic deck, tho' depending on unit performance, some movements won't be available. Among these cards:

    -- Straight Movement: The straight card has all speed ranges, 1-5 inclusive. A card is 2.65" long; the black arrow is 0.25", leaving 2.4" for the unit to move. That being so, the Straight card would have five moves, at 0.48", 0.96", 1.44", 1.92", and 2.4". (Unit current speed would be tracked with a numbered marker.)

    -- Turns, Sideslips, Sharp Turns, Immelmanns, etc.: A bit more complicated, obviously. I don't know if all five speed values could be fitted on one card without cluttering it up too much; someone with Paintshop will have to sort that out.

    Movements on these cards follow the same pattern as the straights -- the black arrow is located as far up the card as on the straights (so Speed 5 movements would look like the WW1 A deck, while Speed 1 would most closely resemble the WW1 XA deck.

    "Rotary" turns: _CS_ had a special rule in _Behind the Crimson Veil_ for high-torque engines, which is essentially the same as the special right-turn cards the Camel and Dr.I get. That move would have to be on a card of its own, as not every acft. will have it.

    Immelmanns: Same as a corresponding Straight card, but with the arrow facing back the way it came.

    Climbs and Dives, and Stalls: Stalls and Climbs are pretty-much generic already, so that's dealt with; Dives would be equal in length to a corresponding-speed Straight.

    Weapons Mounts: Given that it is possible to mount eight 0.70-cal.s on one airplane in _CS_ (granted, it moves like a brick...), and that there's more than just 0.30-cal. available, combat will have to use the WW2 chits. Also, I haven't quite worked out what the chit draw is for, say, six 0.50s -- and with five different calibres available, figuring out equivalencies will take a while.

    Criticals: Same as normal game.

    Still working out how to incorporate the various rocket types -- some of them (the drill rocket, esp.) don't translate very well.

    Opinions?

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    I have the clicky version of the game. It uses hex tiles for moving the aircraft. And each aircraft has a maneuver deck that is similar to the one WoW uses. It just shows the positions of the hexes to perform the given maneuver.
    I was thinking of keeping it KISS. Just use the existing movement decks from WW2. Just need to figure out what aircraft would get what deck. Also would need to figure out what damage chits each aircraft would get. If certain aircraft had a really specific maneuver then take the movement card from the appropriate WW1 deck to approximate it if the equivalent card is not in the WW2 set.
    Again, using the WoW stands and move system.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Knowitall View Post
    Just use the existing movement decks from WW2.
    One problem: You "just" *can't* do that. As noted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Knowitall View Post
    Just need to figure out what aircraft would get what deck. Also would need to figure out what damage chits each aircraft would get. If certain aircraft had a really specific maneuver then take the movement card from the appropriate WW1 deck to approximate it if the equivalent card is not in the WW2 set.
    so it's a sight more complicated than "pull cards from random decks".

    Also: Most acft. in _CS_ are far slower than WW2 acft. (IIRC, Speed 5 = ~300MPH); most WW2 fighters clear that by about 50 MPH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Knowitall View Post
    Again, using the WoW stands and move system.
    And what part of what I posted was not using the _WoW_ system?

    The fact is: For this, one is going to have to make new cards, for both the acft. and their maneuver decks.

    (And when I playtested ClickyCS, the cards were octagonal.... :) )

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    One problem: You "just" *can't* do that. As noted:



    so it's a sight more complicated than "pull cards from random decks".

    Also: Most acft. in _CS_ are far slower than WW2 acft. (IIRC, Speed 5 = ~300MPH); most WW2 fighters clear that by about 50 MPH.
    Right, cause these are as you pointed out, Inter-War period aircraft. Tho' I would venture to say, that some of the aircraft push the WW2 era capabilities especially late war (1944 -45)



    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    And what part of what I posted was not using the _WoW_ system?
    I didn't say it was not...

    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    The fact is: For this, one is going to have to make new cards, for both the acft. and their maneuver decks.

    (And when I playtested ClickyCS, the cards were octagonal.... )
    Right you are, and on the aircraft's manuever deck it has on it the pattern for it's movement.
    To break it down to WoW movement mechanics, it would require some tweaking of some of the "can't do this" movement rules to flesh out some of the special maneuvers. Not to mention that what in CS, the aircraft performed the maneuver in one turn, in WoW it would be broken down into impulses like it works currently.
    (now no one is advocating defying the laws of physics here....

    Also, thinking that some new chits may be in order. Like "Inverted" or "Rolled Left/Right"
    or some such, to indicate that the aircraft is not "upright"
    Now, using the incredible devices created (gimble) you can tilt the aircraft in the rolled direction or pointing up or down, indicating what action it is performing.
    By having an "inverted" Chit to place on the aircraft stand, this would indicate how the aircraft is in relation to others.

    I know that I am going to be popping all of the Clicky versions of CS aircraft off of their stands, and then re-basing them for the WoW type of flight base. I'm even considering very strongly using the Gimble mounts as well.
    Now I just need to find something to use for the vertical post.

  13. #13

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    If you are going to use the Gimbal mounts, why not use the official WoW flight pegs?

    Sorry I've not added to this dicussion, just busy with lots of other stuff to really sit down and think it through or dig up info on it... all my non WoW games are packed away in the attic or shed

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Knowitall View Post
    Right, cause these are as you pointed out, Inter-War period aircraft. Tho' I would venture to say, that some of the aircraft push the WW2 era capabilities especially late war (1944 -45)
    Not quite -- as I was told by Herr Trautmann, there were certain features of WW2 which were to be kept strictly out of _CS_, as they were not in keeping with the "image" of the game: Jet Engines were Right Out; "boosted" engines (turbos and superchargers) were to be rare; radar wasn't going to happen; and anyone who so much as hinted at Nuclear Weapons was cruisin' for a visit from Ye Banhammer. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Knowitall View Post
    To break it down to WoW movement mechanics, it would require some tweaking of some of the "can't do this" movement rules to flesh out some of the special maneuvers. Not to mention that what in CS, the aircraft performed the maneuver in one turn, in WoW it would be broken down into impulses like it works currently.
    Which is what I was aiming toward with my suggestions -- in my files, I have plotted the various possible movement tracks (which, I should point out, was one of the things being considered for removal back then -- it seemed silly to force players to fly through obstacles when they could fly around them, and a cost to overall movement; so, for ex.: Instead of a "2L0D" move, one would plot "LFLFL" [left turn, move forward, alternating], with control rolls at the point one started exceeding one's G-rating -- if you like, I can send details), and their G ratings. Then I convert them to what they'd be using _WoW_ cards -- for ex.: The "2L0D" move would become roughly what the second-tightest-turn in _WoW_ looks like (I wish I could remember which thread has the pics of what the various decks' turn radii are -- HALP?), while the "3L0A" would be roughly eq. to the "super sideslip" available to the Sopwith Snipe.

    The idea behind the "generic movement deck" was to allow the mod to retain as much of the _CS_ plane stats as possible -- to use the above examples, a plane with Max Speed 2 could not use the "3L0A" maneuver, as it can't fly that fast. However, as the move cards would be generic, there would also be on that card a "1L1A", and/or a "2L0A" (I know in _CS_ this isn't a legal move -- see above), equivalent, which would be lesser sideslips; each would have a G-value which might have to be drawn against to avoid damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Knowitall View Post
    Also, thinking that some new chits may be in order. Like "Inverted" or "Rolled Left/Right"
    or some such, to indicate that the aircraft is not "upright"
    Really, orientation doesn't matter much in _WoW_; only "did you do a special maneuver last move?".

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    Since Sails of Glory has been released, and the way the maneuvering cards are configured, I think that this is what csadn had in mind for his card idea. This would allow for "special" maneuvers that only certain pilots are able to do. And allows for the different G/speed ratings of CS. We could use the changing of the sails aspect as a means of adjusting speed, and the wind direction aspect as a way to handle the 'G's. Thoughts? Also, if someone has all of the Aircraft stats and pilot abilities, if you could post them in a file, Also, the gun ratings based on WoG stats. WW2 version of WoG seems to be the best way to handle the damage aspect. now just need to convert the guns and Missiles to WoG.



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