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Thread: WGS Unofficial aircraft list Version 1.0

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Bear in mind that the speeds in that file assume a fighter base, except for the XA and XB decks. Since fighter bases are 6.7cm long, and bomber bases are 8cm long, the K deck is actually about 330mph with a bomber.
    The XB is probably closest overall, though a bit slow. The I deck is closest on high speed, but too fast on slow, and doesn't have a 30 degree turn
    I would stick with a XB deck.
    A C damage at short will be a B at long.
    Also, with all the talk above on the J and L decks, neither deck has a 60 degree turn; only the O deck has that. The J deck has 30 and 45 degree turns, as does the L, which also has a single set of 90 degree turns. The excel file needs to be corrected.
    Karl'
    So, what length of arrows are we talking about here? Long and short? In the event that some crazy individual wanted to make up a fast bomber deck?

    I'm assuming using the I maneuver deck for the He.177, and a speed of... What? 350 Mph fast speed, or is that too fast for the He.177?

    PS: Fast at 3.8cm sound right?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 12-05-2015 at 18:42.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Bear in mind that the speeds in that file assume a fighter base, except for the XA and XB decks. Since fighter bases are 6.7cm long, and bomber bases are 8cm long, the K deck is actually about 330mph with a bomber.
    The XB is probably closest overall, though a bit slow. The I deck is closest on high speed, but too fast on slow, and doesn't have a 30 degree turn
    I would stick with a XB deck.
    Allowing for the length of the bomber base (I'm still new to this), maybe the L deck with all side slips, the reversal & >=45° removed, would be a good compromise? It's close to the max speed/combat speed and is closer with the cruise speed.

    Also Zoe & I thrashed out the damage capacity (mainly Zoe) at 45.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    So, what length of arrows are we talking about here? Long and short? In the event that some crazy individual wanted to make up a fast bomber deck?

    I'm assuming using the I maneuver deck for the He.177, and a speed of... What? 350 Mph fast speed, or is that too fast for the He.177?

    PS: Fast at 3.8cm sound right?
    350mph is too fast for an operational He.177. The best (reliable) figures I'm getting are between 303 and 317mph (the A-5 and the A-1 models) without a full payload. The A-5 is listed at 273mph with a payload (Warplane of the Third Reich). The A-5 model was the most produced, and most reliable, so let's go with that.
    303mph/488Kmph has a arrow length (for bombers) of 2.6cm, which is a tad faster than the I deck, rather more for the XB deck, but measurably slower than the J deck.
    Max cruise speed of 258mph/415Kmpm has a arrow length (for bombers) of 1.0cm, much slower than the I deck, but almost twice the speed of the XB.
    The XB cruise speed comes to 245mph/395Kmph, which is between the listed max cruising speed and most economical speed (210mph, which is slower than a bomber card can move in the game (230mph).
    That's why I would use the XB deck for convenience. I'll admit I'm not sure what they exactly mean by cruise speed, if there is such a range (one of the frustrations of using the WoG engine for WW2 planes).
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    350mph is too fast for an operational He.177. The best (reliable) figures I'm getting are between 303 and 317mph (the A-5 and the A-1 models) without a full payload. The A-5 is listed at 273mph with a payload (Warplane of the Third Reich). The A-5 model was the most produced, and most reliable, so let's go with that.
    303mph/488Kmph has a arrow length (for bombers) of 2.6cm, which is a tad faster than the I deck, rather more for the XB deck, but measurably slower than the J deck.
    Max cruise speed of 258mph/415Kmpm has a arrow length (for bombers) of 1.0cm, much slower than the I deck, but almost twice the speed of the XB.
    The XB cruise speed comes to 245mph/395Kmph, which is between the listed max cruising speed and most economical speed (210mph, which is slower than a bomber card can move in the game (230mph).
    That's why I would use the XB deck for convenience. I'll admit I'm not sure what they exactly mean by cruise speed, if there is such a range (one of the frustrations of using the WoG engine for WW2 planes).
    Karl
    Cruise speed for most vehicles, planes included is normally rated at the most economical for fuel.
    Hence you cruise there, burning the least amount of fuel possible, and maximise your ability to get back.

    So if we are dropping the combat speed to the loaded max, which I agree is actually more sensible, XB is the closet of the official decks.
    But Zoe's ZL may fit too, with a few turns etc removed. Slightly closer on the combat speed, and slightly slower on the cruise/slow.

  5. #55

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    I like that thought of the ZL deck; note though, there is a difference in the arrow lengths with the 2 speed files
    (WGF_Man_deck_speed_OPQR and DoWManeuverDecks series 1-5 plus Zoe decks). The first gives an arrow length for the XB deck as 2.1cm, and the second as 2.5cm.
    Time to get the decks out and measure
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    I like that thought of the ZL deck; note though, there is a difference in the arrow lengths with the 2 speed files
    (WGF_Man_deck_speed_OPQR and DoWManeuverDecks series 1-5 plus Zoe decks). The first gives an arrow length for the XB deck as 2.1cm, and the second as 2.5cm.
    Time to get the decks out and measure
    Karl
    Two files? I was working from the WGS Maneuver Decks base speeds of card's arrows.xls which gives ZL as 2.3/0.3cm

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foz View Post
    Two files? I was working from the WGS Maneuver Decks base speeds of card's arrows.xls which gives ZL as 2.3/0.3cm
    The first file is here:
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=1651
    It's from Zoe. the other one, I posted (can't remember who did it):
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=1742
    Somewhere along the line, Zoe's decks got added. I would trust the file Zoë posted first.
    Got to go gaming.
    will log in next week.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  8. #58

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    Zoe's sheet is somewhat untidy, I may have a bash at making it a tad easier to read.
    I was working from the other one. But the both seem to agree on XB 2.1/0.55cm

  9. #59

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    Guys,
    I'm having an issue with the "full payload" speed assumption. How long should the unloaded speed arrow be, and when the plane flies the slow arrow for the "full payload" speed, how long should that arrow be?

    Isn't that what we do for bombers? So, the "cruise speed" should be "303-317 mph", not the "full payload" "270 mph". Otherwise, are you not double penalizing the plane? That would make the plane fly the slow "full payload" speed no matter what, and even slower, in game, when used as a fully loaded bomber.

    Not fair. Or is that why the Stuka, using the "I" maneuver deck can't get near the HMS Glorious without the AA taking it out?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 12-06-2015 at 14:25.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #60

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    I have to go with what Karl says generally, except when I can use logic to prove him wrong. Hence single 20mm cannons should be C/A.
    As with all historical reports, there is a level of pinch of salt to be applied. We can't seem to exactly tie down the true maximum speed.
    Brochure speeds will always look better than real world performance. We have agreed on loaded speed at approx 270mph, and cruise speed at approx 210mph. I'm not sure what the official rules are about working out speed against loaded or unloaded weight.

    I was going to compare all this to the new(ish) heavies, and realised I don't have any info on the XC or XD decks.
    So if you or anyone can whip out those and measure them I would be grateful.

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foz View Post
    I have to go with what Karl says generally, except when I can use logic to prove him wrong. Hence single 20mm cannons should be C/A.
    As with all historical reports, there is a level of pinch of salt to be applied. We can't seem to exactly tie down the true maximum speed.
    Brochure speeds will always look better than real world performance. We have agreed on loaded speed at approx 270mph, and cruise speed at approx 210mph. I'm not sure what the official rules are about working out speed against loaded or unloaded weight.

    I was going to compare all this to the new(ish) heavies, and realised I don't have any info on the XC or XD decks.
    So if you or anyone can whip out those and measure them I would be grateful.
    OK with the gun damage. Mitsubishi G4M3 Bettys are an anomaly.

    So the cruise speed is slower than loaded? Or did you intend 310mph?

    Which, if using a bomber base, means how long an arrow? If I use the XB deck as a template, I figure making the long arrow 2.8cms for the fast speed, and leaving the slow speed arrow alone. Sound good? New XBf deck (f = fast)?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #62

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    So for the KI-32 I can include cards 7,8,9,10?
    See you on the Dark Side......

  13. #63

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    Standard XB Straight card - - - - - Fast XB Straight card:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	XB deck straight.png 
Views:	194 
Size:	343.1 KB 
ID:	182972 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	XBf deck staight.png 
Views:	194 
Size:	249.6 KB 
ID:	182973

    The Fast blue arrow line is 2.8 cm long, so slightly longer than the standard XB deck. This should be the 310mph speed?

    PS: Card on the left was a borrowed scan, the card on the right is my quick graphic copy.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 01-31-2016 at 22:58. Reason: Added PS
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  14. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    So for the KI-32 I can include cards 7,8,9,10?
    Yep, all decks keep stalls, dives & climbs. The reversal is based on the planes power/manuverability.
    I'm not 100% sure the Ki-32 could do a reversal, especially loaded, but to err I would take it out currently.
    Depends on how it feels to you. Comparably planes with similar bhp can't do them, the TBD Devestator for instance 900bhp vs Ki-32 850bhp.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    OK with the gun damage. Mitsubishi G4M3 Bettys are an anomaly.

    So the cruise speed is slower than loaded? Or did you intend 310mph?

    Which, if using a bomber base, means how long an arrow? If I use the XB deck as a template, I figure making the long arrow 2.8cms for the fast speed, and leaving the slow speed arrow alone. Sound good? New XBf deck (f = fast)?
    Nope cruise speed should be lower, it's the most economical speed fuel-wise.
    The analogy would be your car, the fastest it can go is 100mph, but you put lots of stuff in it it'll only do 90mph.
    The agreed most fuel efficient speed for most cars is 55mph, and that's why cruise control normally defaults to that (in the UK).

    The He.177 (like the BV.222 I'm currently trying to stat) is at an awkward point between the low point of the standard type decks and the fastest points of the 'slow decks'. If we currently stick to made sets Zoe's ZM is the closest when taking loaded as the fast speed. The I deck seems about right when the unloaded speed is taken, but the slow speed is too high. Obviously both would need to be looked at for manuverability. i.e. the He.177 couldn't do a dive bomb attack, even though it was in the required specs. They never could make it strong enough.
    I have no objection to new decks being created for unofficial planes, I'm working on some myself currently. Like any unofficial house rule, you have to get people to agree to your way of thinking. But then the plane itself is unofficial, and subject to the same thought.

    With a bomber base: 310mph = 2.8cm, 270mph = 1.4cm & 210mph is impossible (-0.7cm)
    It could be possibly done as a 'slow deck' but it would have to be on a larger than poker sized card.

    For your XBf deck I would be tempted to bring the slow arrow back to 0.5cm, pretty much the slowest the card can do. It's then at least the closest it can be to 210mph. Considering in combat you may feather the engines, but possibly not 'cruise'
    Last edited by Foz; 12-07-2015 at 02:42. Reason: dyslexia

  15. #65

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    L Deck

    7,8,9,&10 are the left and right turns which aren't, according to Jager, 60 degree turns.

    13 is a stall

    14 Immelmann

    21 & 22 Climb/Dive respectively.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  16. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    L Deck

    7,8,9,&10 are the left and right turns which aren't, according to Jager, 60 degree turns.

    13 is a stall

    14 Immelmann

    21 & 22 Climb/Dive respectively.
    I really think the excel sheet I'm working from needs updating.
    So I came to L deck with all 60 & 90 degree turns, side slips and reversal removed.
    Should leave you with Straights, 33 & 45 degree turns, stalls, climb & dive. 10 cards in total (I think).
    I don't have the deck, so I can't quote card numbers.

  17. #67

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    The new XBF maneuver deck is in an album here: XBF Deck Album
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  18. #68

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    Thanks for this, Mike.
    As usual is a pleasure to see your work.

  19. #69

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    I need a deck for the CR.32... Just saying... It should be as maneuverable as the L deck, but slower... I really need it for my Spanish Civil War... How can I bribe you, Mike?

  20. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    I need a deck for the CR.32... Just saying... It should be as maneuverable as the L deck, but slower... I really need it for my Spanish Civil War... How can I bribe you, Mike?
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=1242

    The ZL deck for : Fiat CR.32, I-152, Ki-10. For Biplanes with speeds 355-400 km/h

    Uploaded on 03-16-2013

    See also :
    ZJ deck For P-26, PzL-11, Dewoitine 510 and all monoplanes with speed 355-400 km/h
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=1244

    ZM Deck For Hs123, I-15, He51, and all biplanes with speed 305-350 km/h
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=1243

  21. #71

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    So you should be right as regards SCW fighters. Cr32s, Hs123s, I-15s and I-15bis (I-152)...and the solitary P-26.

  22. #72

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    Thanks Zoe!
    Perfect.
    I don't know how I missed these three decks.

  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    Thanks Zoe!
    Perfect.
    I don't know how I missed these three decks.
    I can't either. After all they were on display at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".

    Or the equivalent, buried amongst various graphics files and game aids on the third page in the WWII files section. Not exactly obvious....

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    I can't either. After all they were on display at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".

    Or the equivalent, buried amongst various graphics files and game aids on the third page in the WWII files section. Not exactly obvious....
    But my searching skills, Zoe?! My searching skills! I've waste so many character points in the Searching skill!

  25. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    But my searching skills, Zoe?! My searching skills! I've waste so many character points in the Searching skill!
    Hope you make it to the next level then.

  26. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Hope you make it to the next level then.
    Oh... There are now levels... You have to spread experience... 5th generation RPG's.

  27. #77

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    Hoping Zoe or someone can point me in the right direction, last query:

    US P43A Lancer deck?
    See you on the Dark Side......

  28. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Hoping Zoe or someone can point me in the right direction, last query:

    US P43A Lancer deck?
    You can trust Zoe, Neil!
    She'll help you.
    And I think she has a couple of P-43's.

  29. #79

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    Republic P-43A-1 Lancer Deck F Arm A-B / A Dam 17 Alt 13 Climb 4 Fighter base No Self Sealing Tanks, No Armour, Radial

    When using the official house rules, No SST = fire lasts 12 (double), No Armour = Control hit does crew hit too.

    See list at http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=2136

  30. #80

  31. #81

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    Cheers Zoe. On the ball as usual.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  32. #82

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    (BLUSH) Thank you, Kind Sir.

    I should mention that while the spreadsheet is a team effort, I think jager put in as much work on it as the rest of us put together, and to him should go proportionate credit.

  33. #83

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    Question - what is a K+ deck for a helldiver?

  34. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham Resident View Post
    Question - what is a K+ deck for a helldiver?
    The standard K deck with the dive bombing cards from I.

  35. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foz View Post
    The standard K deck with the dive bombing cards from I.
    Ah...superb. Thank you.

  36. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham Resident View Post
    Ah...superb. Thank you.
    One tip though, if you only have Wings of Glory cards is to put something over the letters on the backs. Otherwise your enemy will know you're about to dive.

  37. #87

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    This topic deserves to be sticky.

    Btw, maybe Special Rule No 3 should be edited. It seems to me that Non-radial engines at WW2 era were used less than the radial ones. So, maybe only lack of RE should be the special rule?
    Last edited by Пилот; 02-23-2016 at 06:08.

  38. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    This topic deserves to be sticky.
    Agreed!

  39. #89

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    All the work on this is great! One thing that I find confusing is the aircraft notes, house rules part. Great list that are indexed to the plane's list but no explanation on how to implement 1, 2 & 3 to game play. Could the game rule adjustments be included on the 1, 2 & 3 house rules in the list? That will make it a lot easier for those looking to add this to their games. I did find this digging through this thread but I think the info should be with the notes.

  40. #90

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    And the rules for WW1 also should be sticky-ed.

  41. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    And the rules for WW1 also should be sticky-ed.
    I agree

  42. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    All the work on this is great! One thing that I find confusing is the aircraft notes, house rules part. Great list that are indexed to the plane's list but no explanation on how to implement 1, 2 & 3 to game play. Could the game rule adjustments be included on the 1, 2 & 3 house rules in the list? That will make it a lot easier for those looking to add this to their games. I did find this digging through this thread but I think the info should be with the notes.
    I give this a +1 vote. AND the sticky part.

  43. #93

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    Karl and Zoe, would you pop over this thread for a moment with your wisdom? I didn't want to clutter this thread with my questions.

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...HF-base-planes

  44. #94

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    Guys/girls,

    I don't know am I the only one with this issue, but need some clarification and help with making *, **, (-), (db) etc. tweaked decks for unofficial planes (according to "WGS unofficial aircraft V1.0 NOTES"

    So, let's go:

    C(-): no fast side slips:
    No cards 15,16?

    D*: no reversals:
    No card 12?

    D**: no fast side slips, or reversals:
    No card 12, 15, 16?

    D(-): no fast side slips
    No cards 15, 16?

    F(Z)*: no reversals:
    No card 12?

    H*: no fast side slip
    No cards 15, 16?

    H**: no 45 degree turns and fast side slip
    No cards 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, 16?

    I*: no second dive card or dive bomb cards
    No cards 13, 14, 15?

    J*: no fast side slip
    No cards 15, 16?

    J**: no reversals or fast side slip
    No card 12, 15, 16?

    K(-): no 45 degree turn
    No cards 7, 8, 9, 10?

    K*: no reversals
    No card 12?

    K**: no fast SS or 30 degree turn
    No cards 3, 4, 5, 6, 15, 16?

    M*: no reversals
    No card 12?

    O*: no 60 degree turns.
    No cards 7, 8, 9, 10? Or no cards 11, 12?

    O** no 60 degree turns or extreme side slips.
    No cards 7, 8, 9, 10 (and/or 11, 12) + no cards 17, 18?

    Q*: no extreme side slips.
    No cards 15, 16?

    R*: no extreme side slip
    No cards 15, 16?

    R**: no extreme side slip or reversal.
    No cards 12, 15, 16?

    ZM(db): Make it look like the I deck; no 30 or 60 degree turns, and remove one set of sideslips.
    No cards 15, 16, 17, 18? And/or what other cards?
    Add equivalents of 13, 14, 15 from I deck (second dive card and two dive bomb cards)?

    Thanks a lot!

  45. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham Resident View Post
    Karl and Zoe, would you pop over this thread for a moment with your wisdom? I didn't want to clutter this thread with my questions.

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...HF-base-planes
    Sorry, seriously busy at the moment, Father in Law in hospital, 50/50 chance.

  46. #96

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    Stay with him Zoe, you are an angel to him first, we can wait. Blessings!

  47. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    Sorry, seriously busy at the moment, Father in Law in hospital, 50/50 chance.
    please accept my hopes and wishes for the best possible outcome.

  48. #98

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    You're in my thoughts, Zoe. I hope for the best.

  49. #99

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    All the best for you and your Father-in-law Zoe
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  50. #100

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    Keep faith! All the best wishes!

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