Fokker DII and DIII
Do anyone know the servicetime of the Fokker DII and DIII?
I have found some info on the DIII.: The first was delivered to the front in September -16 and that production ceased in the spring -17.
Apearently thay used the DIII for homedefence under 1917 but not as a frontline fighter. I am trying to find out when it it was withdrawn from frontlineservice.
On the DII I have not found anything more than that it was used during 1916.
some help please
/P-G
on the Fokker DIII I know that the Dutch purchased some from Germany, and these were in use in the Dutch air force until 1921 i think... not 100% sure on that one though just rings a bell from an article i read a while back, i also have read that Boelcke took a dislike to them and it was on his recommendation that they were withdrawn from front line service. i know the DII was unpopular pretty much straight from the off with French fighters being far superior from the word go and that the moment the Albatros was introduced it was withdrawn,...... sorry this isnt more accurate on anything but hope it helps a little bit. (although i doubt it
)
Rob
All I've found suggests that both types went out as the Albatros came in so from Aug/Sept 16 onwards; the stats shows the D.II as Q1-Q4 1916.Originally Posted by LOOP
Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"
Here is a bit of what I found... the unofficial stats will give a better picture of the service times in and out.
In service, the D.II proved to be little better than the earlier Fokker Eindecker fighters - in particular, it was outclassed by the superior French Nieuport 11 and 17. Several Fokker D.IIs were used by the Kampfeinsitzerkommandos and the early Jagdstaffeln alongside the Halberstadt D.II but the early Fokker biplanes were quickly discarded when the new Albatros fighters came out.
Production of the D.II was slow. Fokker’s Schwerin factory was not really big enough to deal with all the orders that Fokker’s enthusiastic sales techniques were winning, and by the time the D.II appeared in sufficient numbers to enter service, it was already obsolescent. A few aircraft saw active service on quiet fronts, but most were used as training aircraft. One hundred and thirty two aircraft were ordered, but at best only half of this number were available at any one time and by September 1917 most were no longer in use.
I have several bits of information that support an Aug-Sep 1916 introduction to frontline use, and less certain information on when it was actually withdrawn front Western Front use. Apparently it was directed by Idfleig to be withdrawn in late Nov 1916 because of many problems linked directly to poor quality control at the Fokker factory.
So, I have decided that for my gaming scenarios the Fokker DII and DIII are only in-use at the front from Sep-Dec 1916. Also, the much better better Albatros D.I and D.II (approx. 300 produced) and Halberstadt DII and DIII (approx. 100 produced) were in-service from Aug 1916 to approx April 1917; the Albatros D.III began replacing them in Dec 1916.
The Frontbestand figures for them definitely mean an August 1916 introduction - there were none on the books 30th June, and the prototype D.III was only tested in late July, but by 31st August there were 16 D.IIs and 7 D.IIIs with front line squadrons. Both types peak in the December 31st figures, with the D.III more or less disappearing by the end of February 1917 (just 7 left, and none in April, although a handful reappear later - presumably having been issued as non-combat aircraft to units expecting the Dr.I, so pilots could get used to a rotary engine.) For the D.II there were still 33 with squadrons at the end of April, 26 at the end of June, and 10 at the end of August 1917.
Unfortunately the figures are a catch-all for all operational squadrons, so don't distinguish between home defence and western front units, but based on the numbers I'd be inclined to guess at them probably still being at the front up to February 1917 and relegated to home use after that.
Wikipedia has short articles about the early Fokker biplane fighters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_D.II
Confusingly the Fokker D.I was a development of the D.II.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_D.I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_D.III
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_D.IV
Kesta 4 Fokkers etc.
Here is a nice original pic of Kesta 4 at Freiburg probably mid to late 1916 with a mixed bag of a Fok E.IV, D.II's, D.III's & a lone Halberstadt D.II.
I need a german fighter from the first half of 1916 other than an eindecker. I was hoping the DII would fit nicely. But it seems to be a bit late
I'll double check when I get home, but I'm not sure there's any strong candidate - the early German fighter arm *was* Eindekkers - I'm not sure any of the biplane fighters entered service before the summer of '16.
That is what I have always heard. But when the Stats showed the DII as 16Q1-Q4 I got my hopes up. (Always been a sucker for biplanes)
Have just had a double check, and in the first half of 1916 only a handful of Halberstadt D types were in service - a single Halberstadt D.III prototype was on the books at the end of February, no biplane fighters whatsoever at the end of April, and 6 Halberstadt D.IIs and 2 Halberstadt D.IIIs at the end of June. By the end of August there were a couple of dozen Halberstadts and the first few dozen Fokker D types, plus a single prototype each of the Albatros D.I and D.II. (There were still 2 Eindekkers for every biplane fighter though.) By the end of October it's all change though - in that two months Eindekkers have gone from two-thirds of the fighter force to less than a fifth, and the Albatros is taking over.
I agree with Dom. The British and likely the French have a couple of single seat AC before the Eindecker, but I am not aware of any earlier German single-seat "fighters". The Albatros C1, a 2-seater, had an observer's MG but it was far from being a "fighter".
Good luck.
Looks like I will have to make due with the AIII
But I think I will order some Fokker DII.s from Shapeways anyway.
I picked up a couple of Fokker DIIs from Shapeways, and I intend to be able to 'mix' them in a unit with an Eindecker and a couple of Halberstadts...the pic of Kest 4 above is kind of the idea I had in mind, actually.If I remember correctly, Boelcke's first victory in Jasta 2 was in a DII...anyway, I've seen a picture of him standing next to one and that's what the caption read.
All the best,
Matt
I thought I do something like that to
31 Aug 1916
Fokker D.II 16
Fokker D.III 7
31 Oct 1916
Fokker D.II 49
Fokker D.III 6
31 Dec 1916
Fokker D.II 68
Fokker D.III 34
28 Feb 1917
Fokker D.II 49
Fokker D.III 7
30 Apr 1917
Fokker D.II 33
30 Jun 1917
Fokker D.II 26
31 Aug 1917
Fokker D.II 10
Fokker D.III 1
The number reflects how many were in service at that time. Service could also mean schools/training ect.
I hope this helps.
Sincerely, John
Last edited by john snelling; 05-29-2015 at 13:49.
Fokker D.I - 144, D.II – 177, D.III – 210, D.V – 216.
There were 112 Fok.D.I and 202 Fok.D.II machines ordered and delivered. Both saw service in 1916. The Fok.D.I served with Jasta 1,2,3, 6,12 and 16b. The Fok.D.II served with Jasta 7,10,12, 16, 22s and 25. Both aircraft may have served in other units not listed.
my data shows 300 Fokker D.V being built. Batch numbers: 2600-2799/16 [200], 650-699/17 [50], and 1600-1649/17 [50]. R. When the Fok.D.V was assigned to a front line Jasta, such as Jasta 5, it was for pilot transition to rotary engine aircraft, in this case from Alb.D.V to Fok.DR.I
Fokker D.III (end of month totals, 1916)
Aug. 7
Oct. 6
Dec. 34
-withdrawn- (see above)
From 31 August to 31 December 1916, almost half of the biplane fighters at the Front was composed of Fokker D-types.
Just some more tidbits.
2Sep16 Hptm. Boelcke-20th victory over D.H. 2 #7895, of the 32 Sqn. RFC, piloted by Capt. R.E. Wilson, POW. The first victory for him in Jasta 2.I picked up a couple of Fokker DIIs from Shapeways, and I intend to be able to 'mix' them in a unit with an Eindecker and a couple of Halberstadts...the pic of Kest 4 above is kind of the idea I had in mind, actually.
All the best,
Matt
I do not know if Jasta 2 had Fokker D.II's.
This is what I know. About Jasta 2 starting aircraft.
Fokker D.I Aug16 started with 1
Fokker D.III Aug16 started with 2
Albatros D.I Aug16 started with 1. Received 5 16 Sep16
Albatros D.II Oct16 fully equipped. Received 1 16 Sep16. after Last one used probably in Apr17
Excellent details John. Thanks.
It's clear from your info that these new "Jastas" flew a mixed bag of the early fighters in the early months after the Jastas began to form in mid-summer 1916. But, also as your details show, by Oct/Nov 1916 they were becoming less mixed and at about the same time the Albatros D.III began arriving at the front ... complete with some serious initial imperfections. However, the worst of these was quickly sorted-out and more than enough D.IIIs were doing front-line service to give rise to "Bloody April".
Playing this game since 2009 and enjoying the Aerodrome site since Fall 2010 has given me an appreciation for how quickly aircraft technology advanced during WWI ... as did the ideas of how to use and fight the new AC.
Bruce if you have any specific questions about a Jasta let me know I'll share what I have collected over the years. My main interest was always the A-H.
Here is Jasta 1. Talking about diversity.
Fokker E.III Aug16
Fokker E.IV x 1 Aug16 Wintgens flew one at times KIA 25 Sep 1916
Halberstadt D.II Aug16 equipped initially
Halberstadt D.III Aug16 equipped initially
Fokker D.I Aug16 First aircraft withdrawn Dec16 wing failures
Fokker D.II Aug16
Pfalz E.IV Aug16
Fokker D.IV von Keudall
Albatros D.I x 2 Sep16 very first brought by Leopold Reimann
Albatros D.II Dec 16
captured Nieuport 11
captured Nieuport 16 Gustav Leffers got a victory in one on 31 Aug16.
Flew until Dec16.
Many thanks for all those stats John!
Only one of the pics came through.
The Osprey book on Jasta Boelcke shows him standing next to a DIII, in which he scored the first Jasta victory. It seems he flew it regularly until the unit received some Albatros DIs and DIIs, when he switched to a DII...there is a nice overview/discussion of the Jasta's early history and the mix of planes it flew - I highly recommend the book, if you don't have it yet.
All the best,
Matt
I will try to post the images again.
There were some Pfalz machines E.I-V. The E.III was a two-seater parasol machine with a forward and rearward firing machine guns cloned from the Morane-Saulnier L. The others were single-seaters resembling the Fokker Eindekkers.
There were also twenty Siemen-Schuckert E.I's. These also resembled a Fokker Eindekker but with a better streamlined fuselage and stronger undercarriage.
Last edited by Naharaht; 05-31-2015 at 06:00.
If I try to boil all your numbers to mounths I get a aprox. frontline servicetime for the Fokker DII/DIII to: Sept -16 to Apr-17.
Is that somewhat correct? With a peak October - December-16?
I'd start it at August '16 (there were only 23 by the end of August, but that's at a time when 23 was a noticeable chunk of the entire fighter force - the whole air force only had 186 fighters, most of them Eindekkers....) and yes peaking in December.
Judging when it disappeared from front-line units rather than home defence ones is the tricky bit. April '17 seems a little late to me, but not implausible - there were still 33 with combat units at the end of April, but by then it was 33 out of a fighter force of nearly 700 - the Albatros has clearly taken over by then, and the fighter arm is nearly four times the size it was in August '16.
Aug-16 to Mars-17 then.
Yeah why not.
Well... It's settled then. Aug-16 to mars-17 it is.
31 Aug 1916
Fokker E.III 64
Fokker E.IV 25
Halb D.III 20
Pfalz E.II 17
Fokker D.II 16
Pfalz E.I 11
Fokker D.I 10
Alb D.I 1
Alb D.II 2
Fokker D.III 7
Fokker D.IV 2
Halb D.II 5
Fokker E.I 1
Fokker E.II 5
Pfalz E.IV 1
Total 186
31 Oct 1916
Fokker D.I 74
Alb D.I 50
Fokker D.II 49
Halb D.III 32
Alb D.II 28
Fokker E.III 28
Halb D.IV 17
Fokker E.IV 16
Fokker D.III 6
Halb D.I 6
Roland D.I 1
Fokker E.II 2
Pfalz E.I 3
Pfalz E.II 3
SSW E.I 5
Total 321
31 Dec 1916
Alb D.II 214
Fokker D.II 68
Halb D.II 55
Alb D.I 39
Fokker D.III 34
Halb D.IV 32
Halb D.III 17
Alb D.III 13
Fokker E.III 11
Roland D.I 7
Fokker D.I 4
Fokker D.IV 2
Fokker E.II 1
Fokker E.IV 2
Pfalz E.I 1
SSW E.I 2
Total 502
28 Feb 1917
Alb D.II 150
Alb D.III 137
Lvg D.I 61 Alb D.II
Fokker D.II 49
Halb D.V 39
Alb D.I 28
ALL Halb D.II 24
Roland D.II 22
Aviatik D.I 15 Halb D.II
Aviatik D.II 4 Halb D.II
Fokker D.I 5
Fokker D.III 7
Fokker D.V 3
Halb D.I 12
Halb D.II 5
Halb D.III 12
Lvg D.II 1
Roland D.I 12
Fokker E.III 2
SSW E.I 1
Total 565
Most pilots wanted to live and fight another day. To do that they must fly the best and safest ac available. Specially on the western front on the eastern front they could afford not the fly the newest and still survive.
Sorry the columns look great until posted.
Last edited by john snelling; 06-02-2015 at 08:55.
Great info John.
really useful stuff - many thanks!
Those are just splendid data, John. That is most useful
Just so I understand them all.... The Lvg DI are licencebuilt Alb. DII? and the Aviatik DI and II are licencebuilt Halberstadts?
Yes, for some reason the Germans decided to list them in this manner. I wonder if there were differences between the two to make the distinction?Those are just splendid data, John. That is most useful
Just so I understand them all.... The Lvg DI are licencebuilt Alb. DII? and the Aviatik DI and II are licencebuilt Halberstadts?
I glad records like these still exist, French Nieuport production records do not.
I suspect they had the same problems with license-building as the West did -- one builder might be, erm, "inadequate" (see WW2, and Brewster Aircraft).
Or better than the designer's company. Note the difference between the Fokker-built D.VIIs and the Albatross ones.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Note I didn't specify *which* builder was inadequate.... >:)
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