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Thread: Fe2b shootingarcs

  1. #1

    LOOP
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    Default Fe2b shootingarcs

    I am thinking about buying an FE2b from shapeways and was looking around the Dome for cards and stats when I it hit me. Shootingarcs.
    I looked at the Aerodromestore and found Keith's flightstand. Lovely! But how does that work?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The front arc is ok. A lewis that turns from side to side but most FE2b:s I've seen has 2 guns. One pointing backwards over the topwing. So my inperpretation of the second arc is:
    The second gun can not fire from "4-8" and "11-14" on targets at lower altitide but from "4-14" at same or higher altitude. Is that right?
    And there is a blindspot between the "dotted line" when shooting at targets at same or lower altitude..?
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    Have I miss or missinterpreted anything?
    The prop maybe.....

    /P-G
    Last edited by LOOP; 05-26-2015 at 00:14.

  2. #2

    LOOP
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    One other thing... It must take the gunner some time to change guns. Is it done like this...

    Card 1: Shooting forward sitting down.
    Card 2: Changing position - No shooting.
    Card 3: Shooting backward standing up.

  3. #3

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    You can pick the bones out of this thread Per
    and this thread and this thread.
    Lots of interesting facts pictures and ideas put forward.
    Last edited by flash; 05-26-2015 at 00:59.

    "He is wise who watches"

  4. #4

    LOOP
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    Thanks Dave. I'll look into it.

  5. #5

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    Make sure you read post #106 on p3 in the first thread and #118 to fuel your ideas !

    "He is wise who watches"

  6. #6

    LOOP
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    It was an extencive thread Dave.

    Very interresting reading but perhaps a bit to much...

    I will try to do a summery...

    Forward: just use the arc on the base.

    Backwards: targets at higher altitude: 4-14
    targets at the same altitude: a little unclear.... but 4-14 with the blindspot?? or not at all??
    targets at lower altitude: 8-11 with blindspot, or not at all??

  7. #7

    LOOP
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    As you said it Dave..

    Complex little blighter ain't it !

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    In Summary:

    Forward: just use the arc on the base.
    Using that base I'd say that's OK - if you look at Mikes last card he was pretty much on the money.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    Backwards: targets at higher altitude: 4-14
    Spot on

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP;351416...
    targets at the same altitude: a little unclear.... but 4-14 with the blindspot?? or not at all??
    Flying straight and level not at all as explained by Sara but as I suggested on the thread I think that turning, lifting the nose, climbing may give the gunner a shot (using turn/stall/climb card). Of course this may well depend on the action of the attacking aircraft so can't be a given but those with gimbal mounts and a range ruler should quickly be able to work it out. So that's one for you to decide on !

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    ...targets at lower altitude: 8-11 with blindspot, or not at all??
    Not at all - the whole area's a blind spot !

  9. #9

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    Great to see this thread, guys! I just received and FE2b from Shapeways that I'm planning on starting soon - it's great to have the info so 'close' to hand here - kudos to you, Dave, for consolidating those links for P-G!

    All the best,
    Matt

  10. #10

    LOOP
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    After looking at this pic, that you so kindly posted Dave, I have decided I will go with these rules.
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    Forward: just use the arc on the base.
    Backwards: targets at higher altitude: 4-14
    targets at the same altitude: 8-11 with the blindspot. (in reallity that means no shooting. Or a very, very slim chance of doing so anyway)
    targets at lower altitude: Total blindspot. No shooting.


    I haven't decided if I will use the "stall, climb, turn"-rule for shooting at the same altitude or if I will go for a climbcounter-based rule. I'll just have to do some testing and see how it work.

    I lift my hat of for all the good advice you have given me Dave

  11. #11

    LOOP
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    I just received and FE2b from Shapeways
    Which one did you buy and did you buy the "standing gunner" as well?
    I'm leaning at the the one from decapod.. Maybe you could post some pics, Harry?
    It would be nice to see the real deal and not just the shapeway ones.

    /P-G

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    ...I lift my hat of for all the good advice you have given me Dave
    Glad it was of some help old chap !

  13. #13

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    I don't remember the manufacturer, P-G - but the gunner is seated and it just has the front Lewis - no elevated, rearward firing gun is modeled on the plane. And it has the V-shaped landing gear...

    So I'm thinking of getting some standing gunners so I can replace the seated chap. I'll see about getting a photo posted soon - it's ready to prime, so maybe I'll spray it and then take a pic.

    All the best,
    Matt

  14. #14

    LOOP
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    Looking forward to the pics

  15. #15

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    If you haven't, you should look at the FE2 painting thread. Lots of great photos there. John (johnbiggles) sculpted a great gunner standing facing to the rear. Mine is not nearly as nice but what I did before the standing gunners were available.


    Jame's photos with the dry ice clouds are fantastic.

    Find the thread here

  16. #16

    LOOP
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    Yeas, those are just amazing.
    But I liked your FE as much, Peter (tried to give you rep. but my rep-gun have jamed ). Like the hanging Lewis in the front. Very nice detail.

  17. #17

    LOOP
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    In the unofficial gamestats (April 2014), the FE2b is asigned the G-deck. And that is fine by me. But on every card I could find there is other decks asigned. J*, K and V.
    But it is the G-deck for now??

  18. #18

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    It would appear so P-G !
    Some of the original cards were made before we had unofficial stats or even all the decks available that we have today so the authors took a shot at what it might be using the cards available to them and as a best guess - more recent cards were probably based on those ideas and made before the latest iteration of the stats. Clearly the committee has looked into this and decided the J/K/V decks were too fast and opted for the slower and slightly less stable G deck.
    At least we have a use for the G deck now !

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    It would appear so P-G !
    Some of the original cards were made before we had unofficial stats or even all the decks available that we have today so the authors took a shot at what it might be using the cards available to them and as a best guess - more recent cards were probably based on those ideas and made before the latest iteration of the stats. Clearly the committee has looked into this and decided the J/K/V decks were too fast and opted for the slower and slightly less stable G deck.
    At least we have a use for the G deck now !
    The G deck makes good sense as the engine of the FE2b was fairly powerful for a 1916 plane - around 160hp?
    Usually I defer to the good sense and expert opinion of the committee but I'm not at all convinced the 'flying piano' should have the Immelmann card. Most two seaters do not have the card to reflect the fact they were not able to do acrobatics and stunts as well as a fighter. There are a very few exceptions - such as the Bristol fighter because it was famous for being able to do acrobatics and stunts as well as a fighter. I do not believe that the FE2b was as manoeuvrable as the fighters of its time - in fact quite the reverse. By 1917, the FE2b's tended to fly in groups and when attacked a standard manoeuvre was the lufbery circle - which was to fly in circles with the front of one protecting the rear of another. So, I prefer to use a G* deck (which is a standard G deck with the Immelmann card removed).

  20. #20

    LOOP
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    No Immelmann... I have been thinking in that direction my self. Especially when the gunner is trying to fire backwards .
    I'd say, that would not fall out well...

  21. #21

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    Hi guys hope this does not really screw things up for you. I used the book "Aircraft of World War I" by Herris and Pearson , as a reference. On page 20 it show a gunner firing the rear facing Lewis gun. From what I've been able to gather out of this book there were 3 different models produced; 1 with a rear facing Lewis gun only, 1 with a front and rear facing Lewis for the gunner, and 1 with a rear and forward facing Lewis for the gunner, and a fiwed forward firing Lewis for the pilot. I've been using a AirCo DH2 base turned backwards for the rear facing Lewis only AC. For the other 2 models I would assume f you looked at the 2 seater bases one is bound to work. As for a maneuver deck I've been using a K deck and it seems to be working fine. Just my 2 cents worth hope it's worth something to someone. Bob Starr

  22. #22

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    I sure wish Ares had made this one instead of some of the more obscure ones they seem to choose ...

    It's okay - I won't need it until after OTT-TBE so that gives them a couple of years.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpl Cando View Post
    Hi guys hope this does not really screw things up for you. I used the book "Aircraft of World War I" by Herris and Pearson , as a reference. On page 20 it show a gunner firing the rear facing Lewis gun. From what I've been able to gather out of this book there were 3 different models produced; 1 with a rear facing Lewis gun only, 1 with a front and rear facing Lewis for the gunner, and 1 with a rear and forward facing Lewis for the gunner, and a fired forward firing Lewis for the pilot. I've been using a AirCo DH2 base turned backwards for the rear facing Lewis only AC. For the other 2 models I would assume f you looked at the 2 seater bases one is bound to work. As for a maneuver deck I've been using a K deck and it seems to be working fine. Just my 2 cents worth hope it's worth something to someone. Bob Starr
    That screws up nothing Bob, I'd go with the K deck as it's manoeuvres are the same as the V deck but without the Immelmann. It has been confirmed by one that flies as the 'gunner' in a FE2b that it can only engage targets to the rear at a higher altitude (see quote below) and it is well known that the front gun has a number of positions it may be fired from so standard base arcs do not fit the bill for this machine.

    Just for further confirmation - I got a response to this query from Sara Randle, Project Manager, The Fighter Collection at TVAL :

    "... As a gunner in FE2b's you would be unable to fire flat directly behind the aircraft - it was a real blind-spot and something enemy aircraft took advantage of.
    There is a large area behind the fuselage and to either side of the fuse that was very prone to attack, The Luffberry circle (or possibly Luftberry - can't remember) was a famous defensive tactic developed with Fee's where if attacked, a formation would enter a circular tail-chase where each following aeroplane covered the rear of the aircraft in front. (Obviously this tactic has its own pitfalls!)
    I have crewed the Fe2b's here many times as gunner and take it from me (being a girl) that you cannot shoot directly behind you and in fact your field of fire is very limited when using the gun to the rear. Over the top wing is fine and the higher up you can stand, the better angle you can get over that wing. I absolutely believe that gunners stood on the rims of the nacelles to get a greater range of fire, especially if they were shorter in stature and once they became familiar with this aeroplane. Many people dispute this but I don't believe any of those people have actually flown in an FE2b. ...."

    "He is wise who watches"

  24. #24

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    Anyone interested in trying out this option?

    A standard card with one firing arc indicated:
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    Selecting an Equipment Card for a particular configuration, as required:
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    Last edited by OldGuy59; 11-14-2016 at 21:27.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  25. #25

    Rabbit 3's Avatar Squadron Leader Scotland.
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    I kind of like that idea of a special rules card as the older solutions to the `Fee`s rear gun have always felt a bit awkward to me.
    Mind if I pinch the idea for an update of some of my old FE2 cards?

    As far as the gun mounts are concerned I believe that the guns were relatively easy to mount or remove and it was fairly common practise on FE`s flying in formation as bombers to just carry only one gun and mount it in the forward position in the outbound part of the mission and switch it to the rear position for the return leg. The original thinking behind the rear gun appears to be to provide the pilot with some additional firepower though in order to shoot he had to take his feet of the rudder pedals and stand up to do so!
    In practice though this gun was `aquired` by the gunner to give some cover to the tail, clearly it was something of an improvised solution by somebody!
    Last edited by Rabbit 3; 11-19-2016 at 03:03.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit 3 View Post
    I kind of like that idea of a special rules card as none of the older solutions to the `Fee`s rear gun has always felt a bit awkward to me.
    Mind if I pinch the idea for an update of some of my old FE2 cards?
    I'm sharing for those interested, so please do.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  27. #27

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    Looks like a good solution to me Mike.
    I will be printing one off when I get back.
    Thanks.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  28. #28

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    Love the idea and love the cards - now if only ARES would step up and give us some of these fine machines..

    Never Knowingly Undergunned !!



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