Morane-Saulnier N in RFC squadrons

[Prodromoi]

I'm trying to find some verified information about the dates that the Morane-Saulnier N (aka Bullet) were in use by RFC squadrons. None of the WWI books I have give any information about this so I've been relying on websites to get any information, and I'm very cautious about uncorroborated secondary sources!

So far, I've found information suggestion that three squadrons were equipped with the M-S N; 1, 4 and 60 Sqn. However, I'm suspicious that I've found no other reference to 4 Sqn being so equipped other than a single Wikipedia page so I'm inclined to discount that, leaving 1 and 60 Sqns. In total, only 49 of this model were used by the RFC.

Major Eustace Grenfell, while in 1 Sqn scored 6 kills flying an M-S N from 13 Sep 1915 to 17 Jan 1916 (four of his six kills were in a single engagement on the 17th!). Firm and verifiable dates, so I'm inclined to believe them. However, what about the other M-S Ns?

The other bit of info I've found is much more vague. 60 Sqn, freshly formed, arrived in France in May 1916 'partially equipped' with the M-S N. Then "In the opening weeks of the battles of the Somme in the summer of 1916, the squadron suffered heavy casualties and it was withdrawn from the front." - after which it returned to active service equipped with the Nieuport Scout. The a Battle of the Somme began 1st July 1916 (I know this well, my grandfather was there and often told increasingly tall tales of it), but the "opening weeks" is rather an imprecise phrase!

If anyone has books or info about the 1 or 60 Sqn (and even 4 Sqn, although I think wiki is just plain wrong!) and can give any more information on service dates of the Bullet / M-S N in a RFC use, I'd be much obliged!

Thanks in advance.
A

[Flying Helmut]

From "British Aviation Squadron Markings of World War I" by Les Rogers, published by Schiffer Military History Books ISBN:0-7643-1284-7

No. 1 Squadron RFC
Went to France in March 1915 with a variety of planes as a recce unit. Shortly after, they received a number of Morane monoplanes and parasols.
In March 1916 a number of Nieuport Scouts were received - squadron fully equipped with Nieuports by January 1917.

No. 4 Squadron RFC
Mid-August 1914 went to France with a variety of aircraft as recce squadron. In 1915, re-equipped with BE2c, later 2d and 2e; in June 1917 re-equipped with RE8. <NO MENTION OF MORANES>

No. 60 Squadron RFC
Went to France end of May 1916, obtaining their aircraft on arrival.
4 Morane Bulets
4 Morane parasols
4 Morane Biplanes.
During August these were gradually replaced with Nieuport Scouts, but not completely until mid-October.

As an aside :-
No. 3 Squadron RFC Morane Parasols and Biplanes mentioned - no monoplanes.



Osprey Aviation Elite . 41 No.60 Squadron RFC by Alex Revell ISBN: 978 1 84908 333 1
'A' Flight - 4 Bullets
'B' Flight - 4 Parasols
'C' Flight - 4 Type BB biplanes

2 Parasols and 2 BBs flown to France from Gosport 26th May 1916 - remaining aircraft delivered in France. ,DISAGREES WITH BOOK ABOVE!>

parasols used for training only - "before" 16th June 1916 they were replaced by additional Bullets.
By the first patrols on 17th June 1916, 'A' and 'C' Flights had Bullets, 'B' Flight having BBs.

[Prodromoi]

Thank you Tim, very helpful info indeed. Will pore over that when I'm more awake and have some tea inside me!

I'm currently waiting on delivery of Revell's Osprey book; the Rogers one looks like one I'll need to look out for too!

Great stuff, thanks again.


PS. Seems I can't give rep to you yet, need to throw some around and then come back to this one!

[Zoe Brain]

You have to be careful - you need to see N, I and V too.

The first 3 N's - 5067 and 5069 went to 3 Sqdn, 5068 to 1 Sqdn. Bear in mind that as of June 1915, the RFC in France only had 6 Bristol Scouts and 3 Martinsyde S1s in toto when it came to single-seat scouts.


A follow-up order for 24 was next. Some had the "I" pattern wings. 3 started with 3 Sqdn, were temporarily seconded to 24 Sqdn, and ended up with 60 Sqdn. By mid July 1916, only 24 Sqdn and 60 Sqdn operated them.

The type N with a 110hp engine was known as the type I. With additional fuel tanks, as the type V. Externally they were near identical. All 6 I's went to 60 Sqdn, where they were fitted with Vickers guns an interupter gear. Of the 7 V's, A160 briefly went to 3 Sqdn before going with all the rest to 60 Sqdn. 5 more V's - 12 were ordered in all - apparently never were uncrated.

Source: Windsock Datafile 58.

[flash]

Seems 24 sqn were 'augmented' by a pair of MS.N Bullets for the battle of the Somme flown by 3 sqn pilots, Lt Bayetto named as one (Revell - British Fighter Units - Western Front 1914-16) (Lambertons - Fighter Aircraft of the 1914-1918 War suggests 3 had them too as does the other Aerodrome forum). I expect 3 sqn had them to escort their other MS types as squadrons at the time were a mixed bag of recce/scout aircraft.

[guthroth]

This discussion is much appreciated. Many, many thanks for all the information.

I have a particular Buzz about the late ’15 – late ’16 era and my first purchases are a pair of Morane N’s that I am hoping will arrive very soon.

It was always my plan to re-paint at least one in RFC colours, along with my Shapeways models – with luck due at the end of next week.

This discussion has firmly pointed me towards 60 squadron as the way to go.

Happy Landings !

Pete

[gully_raker]

Here is my 60 Sqd conversion of the Ares Morane with rigging added.

WGF Morane 60 Sqd.JPG  Views: 81  Size: 69.5 KB  ID: 163267" class="thumbnail" style="float:CONFIG" />

[Prodromoi]

Thanks for the extra info, Zoe and Dave - much obliged.

Peter - I've gone for 60 Sqn too for my repaints. While it seems that 1 Sqn had a longer operational period on M-S Ns (and would have allowed for the illustrious Major Grenfell's plane), the red cowling of 60 Sqn works better on the miniatures. I've based my repaints mainly on these illustrations, which might be of help:









I'll be able to put photos of the repaints up in a couple of days; they're done but for the final varnishes and drying... (My original plan, a couple of years ago when I bought them, was to repaint them as Imperial Russian Air Force planes when I still had the intention of putting together Eastern Front forces.)

[flash]

Have a look in the painting showcase here - may find something you like or prompt an idea.

[Prodromoi]

Have a look in the painting showcase here - may find something you like or prompt an idea.

I don't quite follow. They're done but for the final varnish coats and drying. I'll add the pics to the painting thread after that.

[Dom S]

On the red noses, they were a date thing - red from 20th July 1916 iirc - prior to that British Moranes in all squadrons had black noses the same as the French, but after British AA gunners mistook them for Eindekkers one time too many an immediate repaint to red was ordered for all Morane bullets still in service.

[Dom S]

I don't quite follow. They're done but for the final varnish coats and drying. I'll add the pics to the painting thread after that.

I think the gallery link was aimed at Guthroth rather than you, as he mentioned he's just about to do a couple of RFC repaints.

[Prodromoi]

On the red noses, they were a date thing - red from 20th July 1916 iirc - prior to that British Moranes in all squadrons had black noses the same as the French, but after British AA gunners mistook them for Eindekkers one time too many an immediate repaint to red was ordered for all Morane bullets still in service.

Ah, that rather makes sense (given the markings I've found for 1 Sqn are black and the later-formed 60 Sqn are red, although 60 Sqn may have had black ones to start with as they reached France in May 1916). You'd hope the damn big roundels under the wings would be a hint too. What about the red-nosed planes in use by the French? Same reason/timing, or did they have red prior to the Brits?

[Dom S]

I don't know on the French, but similar reasoning, or indeed copying it when the British informed them that they were painting theirs red, would make sense. That said, red does seem to be very much the exception on French machines.

For the British, 60 squadron definitely did start with the factory finish black noses, changing to red in mid July - the correspondence leading up to the switch can be found quoted here:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/sh...t=38372&page=2

[Prodromoi]

Ah, excellent find there, thank you. It does mean of course that my red-nosed planes now have a much smaller window of operation if I'm being painstakingly historical! I think I'll not worry too much about that, however! Useful info that might influence Peter's choice...

[Boney10]

For you early fans Shapewys gave a MS BB curtesy of John Macek,
I got a pair and I believe John has revamped the model since I got mine.

[jbmacek]

For you early fans Shapewys gave a MS BB curtesy of John Macek,
I got a pair and I believe John has revamped the model since I got mine.

I didn't like the thickness of the machinegun, so I beefed them up by a good amount. It has printed with the thinner mg, so I would hope it would work with the thicker. But one never knows for sure, since I push the limits of their tech.

[csadn]

If one had been flown on Canada's west coast, would that make it a...

[sunglasses]

...M-S.N B.C.?

B)

[Dom S]

I didn't like the thickness of the machinegun, so I beefed them up by a good amount. It has printed with the thinner mg, so I would hope it would work with the thicker. But one never knows for sure, since I push the limits of their tech.

Probably a good call - I got 4 of them in FD a while back, and at least two of the observers' guns snapped off. No issue for me, as I was popping trimmed down Peter Pig gunners in the back anyway, but a more robust replacement is the way forward there.

[Prodromoi]

The photos of the finished repaints are posted here.

[flash]

Very nice too Alex !

['Warspite']

So far, I've found information suggestion that three squadrons were equipped with the M-S N; 1, 4 and 60 Sqn. However, I'm suspicious that I've found no other reference to 4 Sqn being so equipped other than a single Wikipedia page so I'm inclined to discount that, leaving 1 and 60 Sqns. In total, only 49 of this model were used by the RFC.

Working from Aircraft of World War 1 by Kenneth Munson and Batsford's Fighters 1914-1919 (by the same author)…


He says only 49 aircraft were made for the French plus a 'small batch' for the RFC. He also claims 1,3,4 and 60 Squadrons of the RFC used the type.

Munson also says most French aircraft were fitted with a single synchronised .303 Vickers and an interrupter gear while the RFC types mostly had .303 Lewis. If the latter is true then the gun was probably not interrupted but used deflector plates. I seem to recall that the Lewis was not suitable for interruptor or synchronised firing. He also quotes a climb speed of 3000 metres in 12 minutes.

Turning to the Harleyford book (Fighter Aircraft of the 1914-1918 War), I note:

"The British purchased a few (not 49) Ns" and it confirms only 3 and 60 Squadron plus the Lewis gun armament. This book also notes that a Type N was test flown beside a captured Fokker EIII and was found to out-perform it.

Criticisms of the N were that it was not a beginner's machine with some controls 'sensitive' especially in the fore and aft plane, and the landing speed was rather high.

Regarding Squadron issues, I would suggest that two squadrons certainly had the aircraft officially while the other two probably acquired them as supporting types. Remember that in 1916 it was still a novelty for a Squadron to have just one type. In 1914/15 it was not unusual for squadrons to have a gaggle of odd types or mis-matches. Swapping or trading between squadrons or pilots transferring and taking a favoured machine with them are not implausible.

Barry

[Prodromoi]

Very interesting stuff, Barry. Thanks.

I'd certainly agree (from the various references I've found) that 1 & 60 Sqns were the only ones 'properly' equipped with these. It's possible the other squadrons the N for evaluation in very small numbers; I've seen nothing either way on this for 3 & 4 Sqns. As per your comments, all accounts I've found also identify the plane as notoriously hard to fly, so I can't see them being used as a squadron hack but reserved for pilots experienced on the type.

The Lewis (using deflector plates) and synchronised Vickers were both used, and I've seen photos of each. The only photo that I've seen clearly showing the Vickers shows it not on the centreline of the fuselage, but off-centre by about 18 inches to the left. The different armaments appear to have been dependent upon the engine; the early M-S N had a 80hp Le Rhône 9C engine, with the later model having the 110hp Le Rhône 9J.

From Revell's No. 60 Sqn RFC/RAF Osprey title:
"The idea to re-engine the 80hp Bullet with a 110hp engine is reputed to have been Trenchard's, who thought that re-engined and re-armed with an interrupted Vickers gun firing through the propeller arc the Bullet would be 'the best machine in the air'."

Pilot reports indicate that if the 80hp machine was hard to fly, the 110hp one was an utter monster; the lateral control for the wing-warping was very heavy while the fore-aft control for the elevator was very light so it was easy to accidentally apply unwanted input to the elevators while struggling with turning the plane. On both models the landing speed was very high due to the relatively small (and thus highly loaded) wings.

60 Sqn replaced the last of their M-S N/Bullets (all 110hp models by then) on 19 October 1916, with pilots seeming rather pleased to see the back of them!

[Prodromoi]

Also, I've found the a photograph in Revell's book that I suspect must have been the inspiration for this plate:


And on consideration I'm still more convinced that the text on that plate is somewhat fanciful. The 'oil stain' referred to is, I'm quite sure, just the red fuselage strip that was added to the Bullets to help identify them to friendly forces. Obviously in an old black and white photo it's hard to tell the colour, but it is of the same shade as the red of the roundels and quite neat. I'm sure I read that the red stripe was added after the cowlings were repainted, but I cannot find that reference now!

The elevator is certainly about the same shade as the blue of the roundel. Though whether it's blue or discoloured by exhaust fumes, or just darker canvas is anybody's guess! My repaint is blue to tell the planes apart and I'm happy with that... I do wish I'd have found out about the red stripe sooner though, and incorporated that.

['Warspite']

Very interesting stuff, Barry. Thanks.

You are more than welcome. Let me know on here if you require more performance data as the Harleyford book has some in the tables for the N.