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Thread: New Rules please,Is it cheating, B to A?

  1. #1

    Default New Rules please,Is it cheating, B to A?

    For many pilots one of the most crucial roles in the war was "Balloon Busting" But knocking down a balloon isn't easy (unless your an ace)Attachment 163079, Over the years a number of pilots set about this dangerous task, As we all know some pilots were more successful than others, Pilots like,

    Willy Coppens Belgian 35 balloons
    Léon Bourjade French 27 balloons
    Michel Coiffard French 24 balloons
    Maurice Boyau French 21 balloons
    Friedrich Ritter von Röth German 20 balloons
    Jacques Ehrlich French 18 balloons
    Heinrich Gontermann German 18 balloons
    Andrew Beauchamp-Proctor South African 16 balloons
    Frank Luke American 14 balloons
    Karl Schlegel German 14 balloons

    Above we have the "Top Ten" of balloon busters, So why are some pilots better than others? So I looked at Willy Coppens, what made him better than the rest, Skill? Most Pilots used 303 calibre or 7.92 mm machine guns, Not our Willy he had fitted to his Hanriot HD1 a larger bore machine gun, the 11 mm Vickers machine gunAttachment 163077 Now is that cheating? I don't think so, After discovering Willy secret, I took to the skies in im my 9me Escadrille machine Attachment 163078 Only to find, that Willy's guns were Class B, Surely this is a mistake on the part of Aresgames? After playing a few solo balloon busting missions, with little success, So I "up-gunned" my Hanriot HD1 to "A" class machines, and my balloon kills came thick and fast, They say cheats never prosper was it cheating the Germans?, So the Germans did a little cheating of their own, The Huns went to special pains to try to kill Willy. On 3 August Willy shot down a balloon booby-trapped with explosives that when detonated from the ground narrowly missed killing him. This to should be reflected in the game, I just rolled a dice, on a 6 the balloon explodes, and you take 6 damage cards . What do you think ?

  2. #2

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    I was not aware of the 11mm Vickers gun. As it fires a heavier bullet with a greater incendiary content, I would say that you have a good case for upgrading Willy Coppen's Hanriot to A and you certainly can apply the upgrade as a 'House Rule'. This is supported by paragraph three on this web-page http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v2/v2n1/hd1for.html.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    I was not aware of the 11mm Vickers gun. As it fires a heavier bullet with a greater incendiary content, I would say that you have a good case for upgrading Willy Coppen's Hanriot to A and you certainly can apply the upgrade as a 'House Rule'. This is supported by paragraph three on this web-page http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v2/v2n1/hd1for.html.
    Thanks for the "back up" So I guess the next stage is with our Wing/Co?

  4. #4

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    Very interesting. I'd never heard of this prototype gun either.

    This line in the linked article is noteworthy:
    (inspired, no doubt, by the standard, early-war anti-balloon weapon, a .45-cal, low-velocity incendiary bullet fired from a Victorian-era Martini-Henry carbine).
    ...which reads as speculation on the part of the author. It would be interesting to try to find out whether the .45 ammo for the Vickers prototype was also incendiary. If so, then the incendiary bullet rules would be used, whether the gun itself is considered B or A damage class.

  5. #5

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    Yes good point, But what happens if on a Balloon busting mission you run into the Hun? Willy Coppens would engage the enemy with the 11 mm Vickers machine gun, So in my opinion he should have "A" guns on his Hanriot HD1 (if you check you will find, he downed two planes with those guns)

  6. #6

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    When I was researching Coppens for a pilot card, the machine gun upgrade was mentioned on more than one source. I originally had this in the first draft to be put on the pilot card. I only have so much space so went with the time his plane was on top of a balloon.
    I also remember reading that it was his policy to never fire at ranges greater than 150 yards.
    He was known as the "Blue Devil" to the Germans.

  7. #7

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    Right - a bit of snooping round the web done, and this is what I've found.

    The ammo for the 11mm Vickers "balloon gun" was indeed incendiary/tracer ammo - the French Desvignes 11mm GRAS round. The ammo for the 11mm Vickers seems to have been largely made by Colt (at least for use by the US) or perhaps to bolster the French production of the round.

    De-activated 11mm Vickers sold at auction.
    https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10343887
    "First modified by the French to accept the 11-mm Desvignes cartridge for increased incendiary effect on observation balloons and aircraft fuel tanks. 1,700, and additionally 1,875 of the 11mm Vickers were ordered from Colt's Patent Fire Arms Co in 1918. Rate of fire was approximately 600 rounds per minute, with an effective incendiary range up to 1,850 yards."

    Springfield Armory Museum - Collection Record
    http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCG...TABASE=objects
    "During 1917 the Allied air command saw need for an aerial machine gun larger in caliber than the conventional rifle bore for use against observation ballons. The French were the first to modify the Vickers to take their 11-mm Desvignes cartridge in order to provide more of the trace and incendiary elements."

    Ammunition specification
    http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/calibres-11x59r.htm

    11mm Desvignes cartridge (and belt link) auction (French language site - run it through Google translate, plus it has some very nice pics)
    http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id...anguage,E.html

    Last two images on the bottom of this page show the ammo and belt link also.
    http://www.vickersmg.com/gallery.html

    Curiously most references give the rate of fire of the Vickers 11mm Model 1918 (as seems to have been the US designation) as around 600rpm, which is higher than the 450-500rpm of the standard Mark I .303. I would have expected a lower rate of fire.



    PS. Shouldn't this get moved to the rules subforum?
    Last edited by Prodromoi; 04-21-2015 at 09:06. Reason: Added postscript

  8. #8

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    A Deck plus Incendiaries Ace ability. Should make short work of the gasbags up above... then it's a matter of quick wit to address the ones down below in the Mess.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  9. #9

    Dom S's Avatar
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    I wouldn't make a single 11mm gun an "A" firer - it was regarded as no better than the standard .303 against aircraft, as the ballistics were pretty terrible, undoing the advantage of the heavier round. While undoubtedly a superior weapon against balloons, it was a specialist bit of kit, not an all-round improvement over the rifle calibre MG. It's worth noting that Frank Luke, another balloon buster extraordinaire, was also an exponent of the 11mm against balloons. He had a twin gun SPAD XIII but only replaced one of them with an 11mm, keeping the other as a standard Vickers for its better accuracy against more agile targets.

  10. #10

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    Interesting thread and great research Drew.

    But, as you said, knocking down a ballon isn't easy.
    This is an excerpt from Osprey's "Balloon busting Aces of WWI", page 7-8:
    " ... a voluminous bag of hydrogen would seem an easy target for an enterprising fighter pilot, but for a number of reasons most airmen regarded ballon-bursting missions as extraordinarily difficult and dangerous. First and foremost, the gasbags were located deep within enemy lines, requiring their attackers to go after them while exposed to observation, aerial interception and every enemy soldier carring a gun. Although the balloon floated several thousand feet above the ground, it could be rapidly pulled floated down by means of a powered winch when attacked, while the balloon company's attached batteries of anti-aircraft artillery and machine guns surrounded it with a descending cone of fire through which the attacking fighter had to dive.
    Once he reached his downward-rushing quarry, the fighter pilot found it surprisingly difficult to ignite the pure hydrogen that gave the balloon its buoyancy, even with incendiary bullets. Only by pouring a sustained burst into the gasbag, allowing some hydrogen to escape and mix with the oxygen, could the attacking fighter hope to touch off the fire that, once started, would quickly consume the entire balloon. If he failed to set it alight, the pilot had two options - give up and head for home, or gamble at even less favourable odds by making another firing pass through fully aroused, and consequently more intense, ground fire at an even lower altitude.
    Once ignited, a burning balloon could be seen for miles, assuring confirmation for the fighter pilot who destroyed it, provided he returned to claim the kill. But the pyre was equally visible to the enemy, and the returning balloon buster faced a gauntlet of anti-aircraft and ground fire, as well as vengeful enemy fighters converging on his most likely escape route. taken in sum, those factore caused attacking balloons to be widely regarded as a suicide mission, requiring as much luck as skill on the pilot's part.
    "

    French Ace Rene Fonk, who hated leaving anything to chance, did not include a single balloon among his 75 victories, stating in no uncertains terms that "I do not thus like to combat the enemy, and I prefer to leave it to the specialists of such attacks".
    The few airmen who made a practice of volunteering for anti-Drachen missions were regarded as something of a special breed, possessed of a combination of pyromania and latent death wish known as "balloon fever".

    Almost as rare as the balloon specialists were aircraft fast and sturdy enough to improve the odds of carrying out the mission and returning to boast of it. Among those considered robust enough for the task were the British SE 5a, the French SPAD VII and XIII and the German Pfalz D.III and Fokker D.VII. By 1917 the most common mean of burning their lighter-than-air targets was a mix of flat nosed Buckingham bullets to tear the balloon and incendiary rounds to ignite the escaping hydrogen as it mixed with the air.
    Most were 0.303-inch or 7.92mm rounds, although in 1918, as you pointed out, an 11mm Vickers machine gun saw use with those balloon specialists who could get their hands on one, such our Willy Coppens.

    Other thing to remember is that, late in the war, balloon busting was not a single-machine mission anymore rather a well planned one with supporting aircraft providing trench strafing or air cover to the selected balloon buster so that the latter could concentrate on his busting mission only.

    So, in the end, I would not call converting Willy Coppen HD.I into an "A" firing machine cheating rather a wish to have things a little easier than they were in reality.
    But I know that setting that bag on fire is really addicting

    In game terms, Willy Coppens HD.I is not an Ares' misprint rather a quite accurate research. Incendiary bullets were surely a must add on to a Balloon Buster pilot.

    Mau

  11. #11

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    If Copenhagen HD was armed with 1 normal 303 vickers and 1 11mm vickers then it would be A firing. I imagine the 11mm fired incendiary and the 303 normal. The mix would give the effect required. Bust the balloon with 303 and set it on fire with the 11mm. IMHO.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  12. #12

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    It wasn't - Coppens' 11mm equipped Hanriot had just the single 11mm weapon. You could make a case for giving it a boost against balloons, but it should definitely remain a B firer against non-balloon targets. I think the OP's thinking of the 11mm Vickers as something akin to a .50 cal, which it simply doesn't bear comparison with.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by andron234 View Post
    ...Only to find, that Willy's guns were Class B, Surely this is a mistake on the part of Aresgames?...
    The guns were a gun, singular, so a B is correct in the scheme of things - Ares don't differentiate between the different mgs weapons calibre and performance just the number employed. I don't think making it an A class gun is necessarily cheating, at the end of the day you can house rule it as you like but I would say a B deck with incendiary ammo rules will get the job done too. After all it's not supposed to be easy - gas bags were hard to put down and well protected as many found out the hard way.
    There are a number of threads on this subject if you search 11mm Vickers - have a look at this one from Zoe that has some interesting data in it about the rounds used: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...t=11mm+Vickers
    Others have a number of suggestions as to how to handle the damage of the 11mm - one I like was B deck at long range, A deck at short ?!

    "He is wise who watches"

  14. #14

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    Having read all the pros and cons put forward here, I would tend to agree with the premise that in Coppen's case A against balloons and B against aircraft would fit the bill.
    Should he be shot down and captured after firing on another aircraft with this ammunition, however, there can be only one outcome.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  15. #15

    Smile

    Yeah I think making it a B firing gun with the Incendiary Ammo rule is the best way to go.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Having read all the pros and cons put forward here, I would tend to agree with the premise that in Coppen's case A against balloons and B against aircraft would fit the bill.
    Should he be shot down and captured after firing on another aircraft with this ammunition, however, there can be only one outcome.
    Rob.
    Ill go along with that, But what rules would you use in the case of the booby-trapped balloon ? Its explosives should have the capability of destroying a plane in one go, I just rolled a dice, on a 6 the balloon explodes, and you take 6 damage cards

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by andron234 View Post
    Ill go along with that, But what rules would you use in the case of the booby-trapped balloon ? Its explosives should have the capability of destroying a plane in one go, I just rolled a dice, on a 6 the balloon explodes, and you take 6 damage cards
    I just use the collateral damage rule for exploding baloons in the official rules Drew.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  18. #18

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    That's fine for the gasbag going bang - or whoomf as the case may be:
    "If a balloon explodes (because of an explosion special damage result or because it takes too much damage while on fire), two A damage cards are taken by each airplane within a half-ruler of distance on the balloon's altitude level, and by all airplanes overlapping the balloon at one altitude level just above or below it. Anti-aircraft batteries and ground targets are unaffected by exploding balloons."
    But Drew is after the sneaky HE packed basket scenario I think !
    In which case I would suggest drawing two from the D deck instead of A's as suggested above - won't guarantee a kill but two boom cards in the mix may make the difference and there is a chance it will miss altogether. You could even have two A's as suggested for the balloon & two D's for the trap - that may seem vindictive but would cover all bases !

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    You could even have two A's as suggested for the balloon & two D's for the trap - that may seem vindictive but would cover all bases !
    Now that could really ruin a pilot's whole day

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    That's fine for the gasbag going bang - or whoomf as the case may be:
    "If a balloon explodes (because of an explosion special damage result or because it takes too much damage while on fire), two A damage cards are taken by each airplane within a half-ruler of distance on the balloon's altitude level, and by all airplanes overlapping the balloon at one altitude level just above or below it. Anti-aircraft batteries and ground targets are unaffected by exploding balloons."
    But Drew is after the sneaky HE packed basket scenario I think !
    In which case I would suggest drawing two from the D deck instead of A's as suggested above - won't guarantee a kill but two boom cards in the mix may make the difference and there is a chance it will miss altogether. You could even have two A's as suggested for the balloon & two D's for the trap - that may seem vindictive but would cover all bases !
    I like that plan

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamus View Post
    Now that could really ruin a pilot's whole day
    I don't suggest we try it Brian.... you'll just say it's my fault again !

    "He is wise who watches"

  22. #22

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    Dave that is exceptionally nasty....I like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamus View Post
    Now that could really ruin a pilot's whole day
    See you on the Dark Side......

  23. #23

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    You know me Neil - I aim to please !
    Another suggestion is D's & A's at half ruler - just D's at one ruler. Would make it more user friendly perhaps ?

    As an addendum I would suggest the balloon can be detonated as soon as an aircraft is in range, or about to be, but to make it interesting the balloon owner rolls a D6 to see when it goes off in the turn: 1,2 = phase 1; 3,4 = phase 2; 5,6 = phase 3, explosion occurs after any firing.

    Gathered the Balloon ideas and posted a thread in the House Rules to share the love !
    Last edited by flash; 04-22-2015 at 11:58.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Dave that is exceptionally nasty....I like it.
    Right on Neil. We never said war was nice did we. War is hell. Except for the Stotties, Pease and G&T that is.
    Kyte.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by andron234 View Post
    ...

    They say cheats never prosper was it cheating the Germans?, So the Germans did a little cheating of their own, The Huns went to special pains to try to kill Willy. On 3 August Willy shot down a balloon booby-trapped with explosives that when detonated from the ground narrowly missed killing him.

    ...
    Hmmm...

    An Australian did the nasty deed, successfully, first? 21 November 1917: Warbirdsonline.com.au - George Ingle Finch – WWI Air War Victory
    The date of the event is not clear in the above article, but it is here: Wikipedia - Rudolf von Eschwege

    Coppens ran into his booby-trap on 14 October 1918, nearly a year later.

    So, the Australians are not braggarts?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59



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