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Thread: More Caproni confusion

  1. #1

    Default More Caproni confusion

    Since de-mothballing my planes I've been working out what period and theatre of the war to concentrate on. I'm currently wondering what best to do with my two Italian Caproni CA.3 models (the Buttini/Remitti one, apparently in the markings of Regio Esercito / 3a Squadriglia).

    There are various mentions here (and elsewhere) of Italian squadrons being posted to the Western Front. I've been trying to confirm when 3 Squadron was one of these.

    Also (in this extremely useful thread here) it is stated that for the Western Front:
    Caproni Ca.1 - - - 1915(07)07-1917(12)12 ? pts
    (Use Caproni Ca.3 model with “XDs” maneuver deck “XDtra Slow”)
    With the above in mind I was also considering making a couple of extra-slow decks and using the models as CA.1. But with what colour scheme for the miniatures? This led me to a puzzling wikipedia page entry (and yes, I realise Wiki is not a primary source and is often wrong, but it's somewhere to start!), thus:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.1_%281914%29
    In the brief paragraph regarding the operational history it is stated that: "The 12th squadron operated in Libya. In 1918 three squadrons (3, 14 and 15) operated in France."

    The mention that 3 Squadron was on of those posted to the Western Front is certainly interesting. However, 1918 for the CA.1; does this seem accurate? Would a squadron of CA.1 still have been flying in 1918? Wouldn't they have been flying CA.3 by then?

    So, trying to unravel this:

    • If 3 squadron was posted to the Western Front, in either CA.1 or CA.3, would the colour scheme for the model currently (very pale, with few markings except the massive tricolour under the lower wing) seem to be likely for the "exported" squadron?
    • When was 3 squadron on the Western Front? (And where, if possible?)
    • Were they flying CA.1 or CA.3? (Or did they transition from one to the other at some point?)




    It's interesting and frustrating in equal measure trying to work out the facts behind the 'mystery' of the Caproni! (Bizarrely, my copy of Jane's Aircraft of WWI barely mentions the CA.3 while giving considerably more attention to the CA.4.)

    Any help greatly appreciated!


    (My emphasis on emboldened sections.)
    Last edited by Prodromoi; 03-21-2015 at 05:23. Reason: Typo

  2. #2

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    Ciao Alex,

    have a look at the whole thread here.

    Mau

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mau Fox View Post
    Ciao Alex,

    have a look at the whole thread here.

    Mau
    That's one of the several threads about it that I'd tried to find the details I'm looking for in. It says this regarding 3 squadron:

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Speaking about Caproni Bombers of the Italian "Regio Esercito", 3a Squadriglia and 14th Squdriglia transferred to France on the 9th of January 1918 and operated there till the end of the war. More or less in the same days 15th Squadriglia reached the French front. So you can use Caproni with Italin colors on the Western front.
    However, it doesn't state whether those 1918 planes were CA.3 or CA.1. Obviously one would initially assume CA.3 (and that the wiki page was in error). But I'd like evidence instead of assumption!

    Also, which Italian squadrons flew on the Western Front CA.1 in 1915-17?
    Last edited by Prodromoi; 03-21-2015 at 04:34. Reason: Typo

  4. #4

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    Evidences not assumptions, I like it.
    Researching History is not a joke or a mere Wiki-search, so let's have a look at some sources.

    As you might have noticed, there is a huge confusion about how the Caproni were coded. There are almost three designations one being the Factory code, the other being the WWI Army code and the last being the post-war coding.
    So, we are talking about a Caproni 300hp for the Caproni factory, Caproni Ca.1 for the Regio Esercito and Caproni Ca.32 for the post-war designation.
    That's why it could be difficult to find good reference in non italian language.

    Having said that, let's see what is inside the book "Caproni nella Prima Guerra Mondiale" [Caproni in the First World War] by Rosario Abate - Giorgio Apostolo. At page 37 we have this numbers for delivered Caproni Ca.1 and Ca.2:
    1914
    October = 1
    1915
    August=6 - Sept=2 - Oct=6 - Nov=7 - Dec=4
    1916
    Jan=1 - Feb=11 - Mar=22 - Apr=19 - May=21 - Jun=22 - Jul=16 - Aug=15 - Sept=1 - Oct=13 - Nov=1 - Dec=3
    Thus the last delivered Ca.1 was in December 1916.

    At page 93 of the mentioned book, we have these stats for delivered Ca.3 being this machine Caproni 450hp for the Factory, Ca.3 for the Regio Esercito and Ca.33 for the post-war recoding:
    1917
    Apr=35 - May=15 - Jun=15 - Jul=40 - Aug=45 - Sept=35 - Oct=30 - Dec=5
    1918
    Jan=20 - Feb=20
    For a total of 461 Caproni Ca.1/2 and Ca.3 delivered from the factory.

    In this pic we have one of the four Caproni from the 3a Squadriglia operating in France.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ca.3 - 3 Squadriglia Francia.JPG 
Views:	41 
Size:	25.3 KB 
ID:	160698

    Its serial is 4229 that, according to Windsock datafile #78 "Caproni Ca.3", identify this machine as a Caproni Ca.3 from a batch of 100 examples numbered from serial 4137 to 4236.
    The caption on the pic states that this machine operated with the 3a Squadriglia in France from January 1918 to the Armistice.
    It is not an assumption, or jeopardizing, to state that also the other three machines of the 3a Squadriglia that operated in France came from the same batch of Ca.3.

    Now your second question "which Italian squadrons flew on the Western Front Ca.1 in 1915-17?".
    To better answer this question, I would need to know what you mean by "Western Front". Do you include the "Italian Front" in this definition or are you referring to the "French Front" only?
    That because Italian squadrons were sent to France from February 1918 and, according to sources, we can serenely state that these flew on Ca.3 not on Ca.1.

    Hope this help, mate.

    Mau

  5. #5

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    Wonderful stuff, thank you Mau. The info from Caproni nella Prima Guerra Mondiale is exactly the sort of stuff I was hoping for! (Not that I'd have been able to actually read it, even if I'd found a copy!)

    Confirming 3a Squadriglia in France from January 1918 is just what I was hoping for.

    For the last bit - for me the term "Western Front" means France and Belgium (and technically Luxembourg as well); I suspect this is true for most Brits. We use the term "Italian Front" separately (obviously to mean the theatre of North Italy, the Alps etc). From your comment, do Italians generally use the term "Western Front" to include the Italian Front conflicts too?
    Last edited by Prodromoi; 03-21-2015 at 07:35. Reason: Typo

  6. #6

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    Thanks Alex .

    Here we use the same distintion: Western Front [Fronte Occidentale] referring to France and Belgium. We use the definition of Fronte dell'Isonzo or Fronte del Carso included in the general speaking of Fronte Italiano or Italian Front.
    I asked you because often I read of the Italian Front being included in the generic Eastern Front from non Italian users .

    Glad to have been of help!
    Mau

  7. #7

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    From Iozzi/Varriale, "I reparti dell'aviazione italiana nella Grande Guerra", published by the Ufficio Storico dell'Aeronautica Militare Italiana.

    3a Squadriglia
    Commanded by Ruggerone, with 8 pilots, 4 observers, 6 gunners, it leaves Ventimiglia on the 9th of January, on the 11th start assembling materials at the base of Longvic, on the 19th of February moves to the airfield of Ocheley joining Escadre 11 in the East Armies Group. Planes are 2363, 2378, 4219 and 4229. According to Gregory Alegi's Windsock on Caproni Ca.3, that lists all known serial numbers from Ca.1, Ca.2 and Ca.3, they are all Caproni Ca.3. On the 28th of March the Squadriglia is ordered to move to Villeneue, bad weather delays it to the 3rd of April. 4219 is destroyed in an accident on the 13th of April. On the 5th of August the Squadriglia moves to Chernizey. In late October it has planes 2366, 4048, 4229 and 4236 - all Ca.3 again, and it receives people from the other Squadriglias that are going back to Italy. The 3rd never will, it will be disbanded in France on the 6th of November, 1919.

    14a Squadriglia
    Commanded by Barucchi, with 9 pilots, 4 observers, 6 gunners. As the 3a, it leaves Ventimiglia on the 9th of January, on the 11th is at Longvic, on the 15th of February moves to Ocheley. Planes are 4086, 4232, 4234 and 4236. According to Gregory Alegi, all Caproni Ca.3. On the 20th of May, 4232 is lost in an accident. Between late May and early June, planes are passed to the other two Squadriglias in France and the crews are back to Italy, to be equipped with Caproni Ca.5. On the 20th of October with 8 Ca.5 the Squadrioglia is at the airfield of Longvic and after 5 days it flies to Chermisey, but it does not operate until the Armistice.

    15a Squadriglia
    Commanded by Nardi, with 8 pilots, 4 observers, 5 gunners, iassembles planes on the 11th at Longvic. On the 19th of February Nardi goes back to Italy and the commander becomes Pugliese. On the 28th the Squadriglia moves to the airfield of Ocheley, on the 2nd of April to Villeneue. Planes are 2366, 4053, 4225 and 4235. According to Alegi, all Ca.3. In early June the planes are 2336, 4165, 4225, all Ca.3. On the 7th of August the Squadriglia moves to Chernizey, on the 14th of October goes back to Italy.

  8. #8

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    Now we can say: no more confusion on the Caproni! .

  9. #9

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    Many thanks Andrea. Another very useful load of detailed info from a book that I would have no chance of being able to read!

    Would the planes of 14a and 15a Squadriglia been likely (or known) to have been in the same colour scheme as 3a Squadriglia? (i.e. as the miniature of the Buttini aircraft?).

    Thanks again.

  10. #10

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    Thanks, Andrea! Great info here.



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