As I now have 3 23 sqn Spad VII's I was wondering if anyone had any info on squadron markings and colours. All I seem to find on the net are anything but silver/grey colour that they come in.
Cheers in advance.
Neil
As I now have 3 23 sqn Spad VII's I was wondering if anyone had any info on squadron markings and colours. All I seem to find on the net are anything but silver/grey colour that they come in.
Cheers in advance.
Neil
See you on the Dark Side......
Unfortunately I've not found any references that support the Ares colour - 23 seem to have gone from clear doped linen to PC10. I'd be surprised if there was even a single machine in that grey (but would welcome being proved wrong....) - multiple grey ones are a definite no, sorry.
Osprey's SPAD VII Aces of World War I shows the plane of Cpt. William J C K Cochran-Patrick from 23 Squadron in a typical 2 tone tan/light brown (CDL overall I assume and a tan on the forward part of the fuselage)...
They also depict several other planes from 19 Squadron and one from 60 Squadron - all in the two-tone tan, with one of the 19 Squadron planes in PC-10. It seems to me that I have seen a British SPAD in a version of the typical French multi-color camo, but it may have been a SPAD XIII instead of a VII...
Sorry I'm not more help here, Neil! I'm sure you'll get more folks chiming in with particulars, though.
All the best,
Matt
Last edited by Flying Officer Kyte; 03-18-2015 at 03:22.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Oh yeah ... talking about SPAD VII colors is much like chatting about the sex of the angels: quite a Byzantine argument. And I like it.
I have a nice collection of books on the SPAD VII subject, let's see what I can offer to this thread.
It seems that the references for that Ares' silver machine are dug in "SPAD FIGHTERS - in action" by John F. Connors, color by Don Greer, illustrated by Perry Manley.
At page 23 we have this nice pic of our machine:
and the color plate at page 25:
What triggers my attention is the caption on the pic: "Bleriot-built", hence a French machine rather than a British-built one. And we all know that, unlike the Nieuports, ALL French SPADs VII came with that standard yellowish CDL.
Reading through the page of History, we know that No.23 Squadron was the second squadron (No.19 being the first) to re-equip with SPADs, replacing the F.E. 2b. Their first SPAD VII was received during early February of 1917, with seven more arriving by 24 February. Deliveries remained slow, however, and the unit was not fully re-equipped with SPADs until April 1917. All these SPADs were of French origins.
Now, let's have a look of what is inside this other book: "Spad VII C.1" by Thomasz Gronczewsky, Seweryn M. Fleischer - AVIATIK Production POLAND.
While not detracting from the professional research of the previous book, I consider this one as the SPAD VII's Bible. It is a 168 pages great book with hundreds of photos and color plates.
At page 105 we have these color plates showing two aircraft from No. 23 Squadron.
we can clearly see that these are finished in the standard French yellowish CDL.
These are the real photos of these two aircraft:
So, what to say? I tend to consider Ares's miniature as plausible at a minimum level since its source comes from a valid book BUT the History Genie I always have on my shoulder when I look at something by an Historical point of view, suggests me to look at the second option as a more concrete one.
Now from a gaming perspective. Since you Neil have three of that miniatures, I would not waste them in a complete repaint (yes, I am a lazy dog). Rather I would go for retouching the two surplus miniatures with a minor paint job and some redecalling keeping the silver background. After all, doing so, it could add a few more color on the battlefield: I would like the option to have the three silver SPADs with different cowlings, wheels, fuselage markings and tail fin as illustrated in the pics.
Mau
I do love SPADs, so here are a few more infos about the birds mentioned in this thread.
More pics of the captured SPADs I posted above:
B-3504
B-1524
And here is another interesting bit of informations, this time from Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #39 at page 48:
<< For a mere two squadrons on the Western Front (along with additional aircraft parcelled out to units in the Middle East and Salonika), RFC SPAD VIIs came in a remarcable variety of colors and liveries. French-supplied SPADs were delivered in the usual clear-doped fabric with buff painted cowlings, but some British-built examples were delivered with natural metal cowls and light grey fabric, or with part or all of the uppersurfaces finished in PC10 green or PC12 brown camouflage [Mau Fox's Note: I won't enter here the argument IF any green pigments were ever included in PC10!! )
(...) There does not seem to have been any serious attempt to standardise a marking system for No. 23 Sqn until 26 August 1917, when a triangle appeared aft of the fuselage roundels, and an individual letter aft of that. At various time prior to that date, some of the unit's aircraft had stripes on the cowlings and bands and numerals on the fuselage, these coming and going on the basis of various flights' policies.>>
Mau
Great post Mau, and saves me going digging later. Looks like a small dose of eating my words there then....
Thanks Dom .
Well, it is not required to eat your words mate , it's me that I am obsessed by SPADs. So, I HAVE to know EVERYTHING about them
Mau
Your obsession = our education... great info! Thank you!
Great info guys. Now I know how I'll be painting up a few of my SPAD VIIs.
A very timely discussion that you've triggered Skafloc (Neil) because I've just ordered 6 SPAD VIIs from Shapeways in WSF plastic.
Until now, when gaming I've used my store-bought SPAD XIIIs as SPAD VIIs with appropriate cobbled-together B manoeuvre decks and this has worked well enough over 5 years. BUT, the time has come, I said to myself, to get some "real" SPAD VIIs and this lead to the question of what colours and marking schemes to use.
Your thread and the input of several well informed site members has given me my answers.
Once again, thanks to all.
I really like the look of the two-toned British SPADs here, much more so than the grey versions. And the splashes of color are just enough (for me) to make them fun and 'unboring'...
This is one of the great aspects of this forum - everyone's willingness to jump in and help out.
I'll definitely be using some of these ideas as I start painting/repaint SPADs.
All the best,
Matt
Check out the painting showcase Bruce there are plenty of paint schemes for the SPAD VII on show there that may help you out.
"He is wise who watches"
Indeed another great book, Robert, with lot's of pics and color plates into it as well as other useful infos about the British SPADs. Also there are many pics and color plates about No.19 Squadron machines.
Mau
Thank you Mau for all that info on the Spad VII.
That is one bird I have not any books on.
Dont know why but dont even have a Spad XIII model in my collection but now have 2xVII's including the Grey Ares one which I quite like & used in my last Early Door Campaign game.
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