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Thread: Airco DH.4 - Cotton/Betts

  1. #1

    Default Airco DH.4 - Cotton/Betts

    Maybe I missed the discussion in the WGF series 2 reprint.

    What's the background of the camouflage and the heavy front armament of the

    Airco DH.4 - Cotton/Betts ?
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    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  2. #2

    Dom S's Avatar
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    The weird camo was for a planned long range recce of the Kiel Canal - when the mission was scrubbed, the plane was reallocated for home defence, and ended up having its single forward Vickers and scarff-ring mounted rear Lewis supplemented with two more Lewis guns, fixed above the wing centre section:

    http://micklem.com/planes/dh4.jpg

    As you can see, reloading them is going to be a "hell no" job, so I'd suggest as a house rule that any jam drawn for the "A" bit of that "AB" forward armament means the Lewises are empty, and it becomes just a "B" forward firing from then on.

  3. #3

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    Here's a couple of threads regarding this DH4 that may interest you Sven:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-A-DH4-Repaint

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...t=cotton+betts

    Basically the model doesn't have the weapons fitted to it that reflect the values given it (that seems to be the way with DH4 models in general !) but those values would be correct if it did. It's a type that may prove useful against Airship & Staaken Zeppelins !

    "He is wise who watches"

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    Maybe I missed the discussion in the WGF series 2 reprint.
    I missed the serieas 2 reprint discussion to Sven and I have also been puzzled by the missing heavy frontal armament of the Cotton/Betts DH4.
    But if you look at the card, there are 2 lewis visible on top of the wing. Not easy to spot but they are there.

  5. #5

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    I'm afraid my eyesight is not up to that standard Per.
    I looked but could not spot them.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  6. #6

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    Name:  FullSizeRender.jpg
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    It's a really crapy photo but you can clearly see two straight, grey things with a tittle dot at the rear end.
    Can only be the two Lewis-guns.

  7. #7

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    Thank you for the informations, comrades.

    Seems I have to buy this one for Anti-Staaken operations...
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  8. #8

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    That or a NF Bristol...or both

    "He is wise who watches"

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    Name:  FullSizeRender.jpg
Views: 640
Size:  101.5 KB
    It's a really crapy photo but you can clearly see two straight, grey things with a tittle dot at the rear end.
    Can only be the two Lewis-guns.
    Got em. Thanks Per.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  10. #10

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  11. #11

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    Cotton & Betts' DH4 was not the only one with twin Lewis guns on the upper wing. Here is a picture of DH4 no. A8025 flown by Lt Pearson & 2nd Lt Darby of 202 Squadron RAF (formerly RNAS 'Naval 2'). Name:  dehavilland_header.jpg
Views: 480
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    I missed the serieas 2 reprint discussion to Sven and I have also been puzzled by the missing heavy frontal armament of the Cotton/Betts DH4.
    But if you look at the card, there are 2 lewis visible on top of the wing. Not easy to spot but they are there.
    Why didn't Ares put them on the plane if they are on the card?

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    Why didn't Ares put them on the plane if they are on the card?
    $$$$$$$$$
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  14. #14

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    The sculpt has 2 guns nose, 1 rear--I'm thinking about asking Clipper if he might be game for a little rework.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  15. #15

    Lightbulb

    Sounds like a job for some Shapeways Lewis Guns!

  16. #16

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    Hmmm . . . I may have an easy fix . . . I will check when I land Friday.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    The sculpt has 2 guns nose, 1 rear--I'm thinking about asking Clipper if he might be game for a little rework.
    Something like this DB ?


    The Vickers comes off very easily.

    "He is wise who watches"

  18. #18

    LOOP
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    Do anyone know why the colours of the rondells and ruder are changed on the Ares DH4?
    Especially the ruder puzzels me

  19. #19

    LOOP
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    I like your version better Flash

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    Do anyone know why the colours of the rondells and ruder are changed on the Ares DH4?
    Especially the ruder puzzels me
    They probably followed the scheme for the Kiel canal mission that had some low vis markings P-G... but then armed it as the later 'anti-Zep' version when the recce mission didn't come off. There are several impressions here when Zoe did a repaint years ago. I've seen night markings of a white ring somewhere though I found this on the RAF museum site which might suggest different colouration of the markings: "During 1917, two Airco D.H.4s were prepared for a high-altitude reconnaissance sortie over the Kiel Canal. Both aircraft were fitted with extra fuel capacity and finished in a special low-visibility scheme, described as “matte-doped sky blue and buff.” The national markings were subdued, with the white areas over-painted with the buff colour. It should be noted that the two schemes were not identical in pattern. However, the operation was cancelled and the aircraft ended their days, still wearing their special schemes, in the UK."

    "He is wise who watches"

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    They probably followed the scheme for the Kiel canal mission that had some low vis markings P-G... but then armed it as the later 'anti-Zep' version when the recce mission didn't come off. There are several impressions here when Zoe did a repaint years ago. I've seen night markings of a white ring somewhere though I found this on the RAF museum site which might suggest different colouration of the markings: "During 1917, two Airco D.H.4s were prepared for a high-altitude reconnaissance sortie over the Kiel Canal. Both aircraft were fitted with extra fuel capacity and finished in a special low-visibility scheme, described as “matte-doped sky blue and buff.” The national markings were subdued, with the white areas over-painted with the buff colour. It should be noted that the two schemes were not identical in pattern. However, the operation was cancelled and the aircraft ended their days, still wearing their special schemes, in the UK."
    Well I guessed as much and I buy the rondells. They are less vissible against the wingpattern. But I don't understand the purpose of changing the order of the colours of the ruder. It only makes it look like a Russian aircraft.
    Maybe it is a different thing in real life and in the air.

  22. #22

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    As Zoe suggested in the link it may have been the base colour rather than white with blue red on the end of the rudder.

    "He is wise who watches"

  23. #23

    LOOP
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    But why not keep the pale/white colour in the middle?

  24. #24

    Dom S's Avatar
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    I suspect it was pretty arbitrary - red-camo-blue is untidy looking, while red and blue together at least looks like a proper tail flash. As for looking like a Russian, it isn't exactly going to cross the mind of someone who's never even seen a Russian plane. You can see that the modified tail flash order is definitely correct:

    http://micklem.com/planes/dh4.jpg
    Last edited by Dom S; 04-21-2016 at 06:37.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    Hmmm . . . I may have an easy fix . . . I will check when I land Friday.
    I would be interested.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    I suspect it was pretty arbitrary - red-camo-blue is untidy looking, while red and blue together at least looks like a proper tail flash. As for looking like a Russian, it isn't exactly going to cross the mind of someone who's never even seen a Russian plane. You can see that the modified tail flash order is definitely correct:

    http://micklem.com/planes/dh4.jpg
    I know it looks like the real thing
    I didn't complain about its apearence only asked why they painted it that way.
    The Russian comarison was meant like joke. If you put the plane on its tail the ruder turns into the Russian flag....

  27. #27

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    So I got home from my trek up north and did some digging. I found several Lewis guns in my Shapeways bits bin. I like these best, sorry for the blurry picture but they are VERY tiny!



    The offending model without the top wing guns . . .



    A drop of CA in the right places . . . there we are!



    A rather easy fix! Didn't need to bother the elves at all . . .



    If you are serious about an upgrade let me know, I have a few more of the guns in the bin, otherwise Shapeways has them by the bunch! https://www.shapeways.com/product/SL...tionId=4412662

    They come in two versions on the sprue, some with hand stalks and some with shoulder stocks, handy to have about in the bin . . . As for the second gun on the nose, I left it as is since if I were to do some serious touching up and detailing there is a lot of other things to do of more importance . . .

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    So I got home from my trek up north and did some digging. I found several Lewis guns in my Shapeways bits bin. I like these best, sorry for the blurry picture but they are VERY tiny!



    The offending model without the top wing guns . . .



    A drop of CA in the right places . . . there we are!



    A rather easy fix! Didn't need to bother the elves at all . . .



    If you are serious about an upgrade let me know, I have a few more of the guns in the bin, otherwise Shapeways has them by the bunch! https://www.shapeways.com/product/SL...tionId=4412662

    They come in two versions on the sprue, some with hand stalks and some with shoulder stocks, handy to have about in the bin . . . As for the second gun on the nose, I left it as is since if I were to do some serious touching up and detailing there is a lot of other things to do of more importance . . .
    good illustration of what a pucker inducing endeavor unjamming or reloading those lewis guns would be !!!

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    good illustration of what a pucker inducing endeavor unjamming or reloading those lewis guns would be !!!
    They don't appear to be reachable Phillip, except by a wing walker, so if one jams it's done.

    "He is wise who watches"

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    They don't appear to be reachable Phillip, except by a wing walker, so if one jams it's done.
    yeah, we house rule it that if they jam theyre out for the rest of the game.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    So I got home from my trek up north and did some digging. I found several Lewis guns in my Shapeways bits bin. I like these best, sorry for the blurry picture but they are VERY tiny!



    The offending model without the top wing guns . . .



    A drop of CA in the right places . . . there we are!



    A rather easy fix! Didn't need to bother the elves at all . . .



    If you are serious about an upgrade let me know, I have a few more of the guns in the bin, otherwise Shapeways has them by the bunch! https://www.shapeways.com/product/SL...tionId=4412662

    They come in two versions on the sprue, some with hand stalks and some with shoulder stocks, handy to have about in the bin . . . As for the second gun on the nose, I left it as is since if I were to do some serious touching up and detailing there is a lot of other things to do of more importance . . .
    This looks awesome. I have to find someone close by to help me mod this.

  32. #32

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    Yes indeed Dave.
    This looks like something that we could all do with in our repertoire now that the Staaken have raised their ugly reat heads in serious numbers.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  33. #33

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    How difficult was it to remove the extra Vickers gun from above the engine, please? What did you use to cut it off?

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    How difficult was it to remove the extra Vickers gun from above the engine, please? What did you use to cut it off?
    I left it on and gave it a coat of tan to match the fuselage. (I cheated) There are so many ways to detail out this bird, radiator grill, exhaust stacks, cockpits, pilot . . . . . . . since I had to dig the mini out of a box of unopened minis in my collection you can guess its not a high priority! : ) I did run across my seaplane conversion from the first release of the DH-4 . . .

  35. #35

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    Now I need some wing mounted lewis guns to properly arm my night fighter Bristols - how many do you have to buy in any one go? as I only need 3 or 4?

    Never Knowingly Undergunned !!

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    How difficult was it to remove the extra Vickers gun from above the engine, please? What did you use to cut it off?
    I found it quite easy David, it's plastic, I snipped it with side cutters to get it going then pared it away with a blade.
    Last edited by flash; 05-04-2016 at 00:41.

    "He is wise who watches"

  37. #37

    Lightbulb

    Forget worrying about jamming - those Lewis guns are fed by drums only containing 100 rounds, compared to the hundreds of rounds (about 500 or so) on a belt per gun for your standard fixed forward firing guns. Frequent reloading was required, which was difficult for aircraft where it was mounted above the wing and had to be pulled down, and in any case it was difficult and time consuming trying to reload the gun while trying to fly the plane! (The British used Lewis guns as the standard observer/gunner armament, where since everything was accessible and he didn't have to fly the plane at the same time, it wasn't much of a problem. Likely what's actually happening when the rear gun jams.) Essentially you have only around 11 seconds of firing time for those guns, compared to a full minute of firing on Vickers (or Maxim or similar) gun. Having a houserule where non-reloadable Vickers gun permanently jam on any jam result is too light.

    Here's one way to treat non-reloadable Lewis guns that would be accurate: At the start of the, place a 6 sided side on the stand with the '6' up. That's the number of times you may fire using the extra guns. (You can opt not to fire them whenever you want.) Obviously move the die so the number shows goes down by 1, and once it shows '1' and is fired, those guns are out of ammunition for the rest of the game. They are also jammed/out of ammunition for the rest of the game on any jam result. (Really, for that matter you could use a d3 (a six sided die with the numbers 1, 2 and 3 on it twice each - somewhat hard to find, but they're out there), as that would be slightly more realistic.) (There's no point keeping track of ammunition for normal guns, as they could fire around 30 times if using a d6, or 15 times if using a d3, and guns never get fired that many times in a game anyway.) A bit complex though, and not really fitting in with the rest of the game. I'll think about it some more tomorrow.

  38. #38

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    That's pretty much what we've done in the OTT Campaign for the last couple of years - the only thing I'd do differently is jam just one Lewis at a time rather than both as they're independent of each other.

    "He is wise who watches"



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