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Thread: Wounded observers

  1. #1

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    Default Wounded observers

    We in the Wright Flight (SW Ohio chapter) were playing a game with two-seaters at the local hobby shop today, and an observer was wounded. According to the way we read the rules, that means he's out for the remainder of the game and rear gun(s) are lost. But if a pilot takes a wound, he needs to be wounded a second time before he's incapacitated.

    It seemed to us that this might be a bit harsh on observers? They only get "1 wound" while a pilot can be hit twice?

    I was wondering if anyone has house rules that give the observer a bit more constitution and allow him to fire, albeit with some limitations - I did a quick search for "wounded observers" but nothing quickly jumped out from the search.

    All the best,
    Matt

  2. #2

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    Hey Matt. Check out the "Over the Trenches" rules: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...Campaign-Rules

    First post has some alternate rules for wounded observers.

  3. #3

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    These look great, Chris! Sort of in the vein we were thinking MIGHT work - but we thought we'd ask the 'experts' on the Forum and see what the thinking was. We figured someone had already solved the dilemma...

    Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

    All the best,
    Matt

  4. #4

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    No worries. They work well, especially for campaign play... otherwise observer survivability becomes a serious concern!

  5. #5

    adler64
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    Matt,

    We could give fast.git's house rules a try next time, looks interesting(thanks fast.git). The situation came up again after you left. My BR 14's observer was hit. Since the BR 14 I was using had A guns, rear, we knocked it down to a B, with no firing at lower aircraft and no firing if doing an extreme maneuver. It kept me going a bit longer. Our solution wouldn't work if you have B guns to begin with. BTW, result of battle 2: BR 14 took a bunch of low damage cards and on the last turn caught fire and received the "boom" card. The Fokker Dr1 was 3 points from going down, and the Fokker D VII took only slight damage, if any.

    -Matt

  6. #6

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    Sounds good, Matt - looks like we get better as we more forward, eh!

    That's the joy of the Forum - we get input that we can use the next time we play...

    All the best,
    Matt

  7. #7

    Thumbs up

    Yes the Over the Trenches rules are excellent for both games & campaigns.

  8. #8

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    I always treat him the same as an impaired pilot. Takes two wounds to kill and after first wound, jammed guns take an extra move to unjam, can't fire after a steep move. No bonus to hit allowed in any form.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  9. #9

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    I must admit I have always found that particular rule a bit odd, 2 wounds for a pilot and one for a observer.
    I would prefer to see the observer have the same rules, maybe can only fire every other card when wounded and no +1 for aim

  10. #10

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    I like the way you handle this issue, Rob - it's along the lines of how we were thinking of adapting things. It's nice to know about the OTT stuff, too. As a newcomer it's great to know where to look for information to handle some of these dilemmas (that others have already solved, to some extent )

    Thanks for the advice!
    All the best,
    Matt

  11. #11

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    For what it's worth, here's my stab at the issue:

    Two-Seater Aircraft:
    Special Damage: Crew Member Hit
    • Determine crew member hit; roll 1d6:
    o If fire coming through front-facing side of aircraft base:
     1-4: pilot hit
     5-6: observer/gunner hit
    o If fire coming through left or right side of aircraft base:
     1-3: pilot hit
     3-6: observer/gunner hit
    o If fire coming through rear-facing side of aircraft base:
     1-2: pilot hit
     3-6: observer/gunner hit
    • Effect of observer/gunner hits:
    o 1st hit: jammed machine gun stays jammed for 4 phases
    o 2nd hit: observer/gunner incapacitated (cannot perform any functions)
    o 3rd hit: no effect
    Last edited by RJames; 03-09-2015 at 03:32. Reason: Typo

  12. #12

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    But there is no option for both crew being hit James ?!

  13. #13

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    I'm drawing Bomber crew chits for all my multi manned aircraft now. Seems fairer that way, and these rules can supersede the old Nexus ones for two seaters.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  14. #14

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    Sounds like a consistent fix for any aircraft with more than one crewman aboard, Rob. Thanks for adding this to the mix.

    All the best,
    Matt

  15. #15

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    That's why I decided to adopt it Matt. It is vaguely within the rules if not intended for two seaters, and gives a simple no arguments, no dice needed result.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    But there is no option for both crew being hit James ?!
    I thought of that but didn't want to veer too much from the original rules and change the odds, making 2-seaters more vulnerable than the game designs them to be.
    Do the original rules allow both to be hit? I didn't think so. If I'm wrong about that that then I'll revise my house rules. Thanks!

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I'm drawing Bomber crew chits for all my multi manned aircraft now. Seems fairer that way, and these rules can supersede the old Nexus ones for two seaters.
    Rob.
    I do this as well. A nice, straightforward solution with some foundation in the official rules.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJames View Post
    I thought of that but didn't want to veer too much from the original rules and change the odds, making 2-seaters more vulnerable than the game designs them to be.
    Do the original rules allow both to be hit? I didn't think so. If I'm wrong about that that then I'll revise my house rules. Thanks!
    No, the original rules only allowed the gunner to be hit, then it was either pilot or gunner and since the FotG rules there has been a mechanism for both to be hit if you wished to adopt the bomber rules which it seems a few of us do.
    Some would also say the more vulnerable you can make a two-seater the better ! (not me I hasten to add!)
    If rolling a D6 I would add in a both hit option - maybe on a 1 if that suits, though a look at the FotG & the later bomber rules may help your construction.

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #19

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    To restore some balance you could treat the pilot and observer equally if using the chits. One wounds, two hits to kill.
    I have always felt that the observer got a raw deal.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    No, the original rules only allowed the gunner to be hit, then it was either pilot or gunner and since the FotG rules there has been a mechanism for both to be hit if you wished to adopt the bomber rules which it seems a few of us do.
    Some would also say the more vulnerable you can make a two-seater the better ! (not me I hasten to add!)
    If rolling a D6 I would add in a both hit option - maybe on a 1 if that suits, though a look at the FotG & the later bomber rules may help your construction.
    Thanks. At the risk of getting esoteric, I'd go with a 1d8 in that case:

    Two-Seater Aircraft:
    Special Damage: Crew Member Hit
    • Determine crew member hit; roll 1d8:
    o If fire coming through front-facing side of aircraft base:
     1-5: pilot hit
     6-7: observer/gunner hit
    8: both crewmembers hit
    o If fire coming through left or right side of aircraft base:
     1-4: pilot hit
     4-8: observer/gunner hit
    o If fire coming through rear-facing side of aircraft base:
     1-2: pilot hit
     3-7: observer/gunner hit
    8: both crewmember hit
    • Effect of observer/gunner hits:
    o 1st hit: jammed machine gun stays jammed for 4 phases
    o 2nd hit: observer/gunner incapacitated (cannot perform any functions)
    o 3rd hit: no effect

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    To restore some balance you could treat the pilot and observer equally if using the chits. One wounds, two hits to kill.
    I have always felt that the observer got a raw deal.
    Rob.
    Works for me - but you knew that !

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Works for me - but you knew that !
    So I did Squadron Leader. So I did.
    Bye the bye, did I just hear young James use a naughty word?
    Kyte.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  23. #23

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    What, the D word...?!
    Actually, just realised we're way off topic, this thread is about wounded observers rather than how they get wounded.

  24. #24

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    I don't know that there's really a problem straying into HOW the observer gets wounded, Dave...! It seems rather vaguely connected to the thread.

    I think it's illuminating seeing how things can be played - the degree to which some have thought this out is lovely, and I can see cobbling bits and pieces together as they seem to work for us here. I've even been known to use the dirty-D-word myself - in fact, we did that to determine which crew member got hit rather than drawing a chit when we last played with my small group...

    It's all good with this wounded observer stuff!

    All the best,
    Matt

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    I don't know that there's really a problem straying into HOW the observer gets wounded, Dave...! It seems rather vaguely connected to the thread.
    There's not Harry but there comes a point when things get off topic and the thread gets hijacked - but as it's your thread/question and you don't mind then it matters not !

    "He is wise who watches"

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I always treat him the same as an impaired pilot. Takes two wounds to kill and after first wound, jammed guns take an extra move to unjam, can't fire after a steep move. No bonus to hit allowed in any form.
    Rob.
    The standard rule seemed a bit odd to me too - this suggestion seems a great way to handle it; no new rules needed, just use the existing rules for pilots.

    Presumably, by extension, gunners and other crew on bombers would receive the same treatment?

  27. #27

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    Excepting that for bomber crews you get the chance of multiple hits.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    We in the Wright Flight (SW Ohio chapter) were playing a game with two-seaters at the local hobby shop today, and an observer was wounded. According to the way we read the rules, that means he's out for the remainder of the game and rear gun(s) are lost. But if a pilot takes a wound, he needs to be wounded a second time before he's incapacitated.

    It seemed to us that this might be a bit harsh on observers? They only get "1 wound" while a pilot can be hit twice?

    I was wondering if anyone has house rules that give the observer a bit more constitution and allow him to fire, albeit with some limitations - I did a quick search for "wounded observers" but nothing quickly jumped out from the search.

    All the best,
    Matt
    yeah we house rule 2 hits with the same restrictions as pilots for observers/gunners. we figured that theyd be just as durable as pilots as far as wounds. and in light of a/c such as the gotha gV where the front gunners is the a/c commander it makes sense.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    yeah we house rule 2 hits with the same restrictions as pilots for observers/gunners. we figured that theyd be just as durable as pilots as far as wounds. and in light of a/c such as the gotha gV where the front gunners is the a/c commander it makes sense.
    That makes sense but (unusually for me as I tend to house rule a game to extremes) I decided to follow the official rule. The official rule does not really make sense but the way I explain it is it takes a lot more effort to move a gun on a heavy mount than it does to fly the plane. The observer is not killed with 1 hit - it's just that after he's wounded he's not able to aim the gun.

  30. #30

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    Me too; the official rule is good to me also because it reduces the overall "power" of a 2-seater in that it increases the chances that a 2-seater will lose its rear gun.
    Like Nicola, I too imagine that wrestling with the ring-mounted gun to bring it to bear on a target while the aircraft is pitching itself around the sky, etc, etc would have been a greater physical challenge than piloting the 2-seater ... hence having the observer lose the ability to fire his MG when wounded makes sense ...
    ... BUT, (house rule) we do allow a wounded observer to take 1 photo or drop 1 more bomb after being wounded because we also imagine that the camera has already been set-up to take this final photo or the bomb has already been prepared to be dropped.

  31. #31

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    Well Bruce, that sounds convincing enough for me to revise my ideas about rear gunners.
    If it can be explained within the existing rules I would rather accept it than change things for the sake of it.
    It is a very acceptable reason. I will resort to the official stance on this in future games.
    Thanks.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  32. #32

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    There's not much wrestling involved with a scarff ring when you look at the video .. this one's a twin mount & doesn't appear there's any more effort than flying the 'plane, though having said that the gunners not wounded and at altitude !


  33. #33

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    I like your idea Rob and will try it out next time I use a 2 seater. However it is ironic that this post has developed when I have have seen posts complaining the 2 seaters are too powerful

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    There's not much wrestling involved with a scarff ring when you look at the video .. this one's a twin mount & doesn't appear there's any more effort than flying the 'plane, though having said that the gunners not wounded and at altitude !

    An interesting video and well-worth watching. But it looks to me as if the man operating the mount is demonstrating it on the ground.
    Standing up in a moving plane so your head is past the windshield is harder than it looks!
    Try sticking your head out of a side window in a fast moving car.

    In addition, there is also a morale issue of the wound. If I was a pilot and wounded I would concentrate on flying the plane. Otherwise, I'd concentrate on the wound.
    Last edited by Nicola Zee; 03-28-2015 at 00:54. Reason: grammar

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    I like your idea Rob and will try it out next time I use a 2 seater. However it is ironic that this post has developed when I have have seen posts complaining the 2 seaters are too powerful
    To misquote a famous Cricket Captain Alistair, "What are those two guns sticking out the front of your plane for!"
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola Zee View Post
    An interesting video and well-worth watching. But it looks to me as if the man operating the mount is demonstrating it on the ground...
    Clearly he was hence my comment "though having said that the gunners not wounded and at altitude !". It does show off how easy the guns, in this case, could be moved on their pintle without having to move the ring or adjust the mount.
    As for morale - if I was a gunner and wounded (but still able) I would concentrate on shooting the bloke trying to kill me and my oppo. Otherwise, I'd concentrate on the wound but maybe that's just me !
    Still, horses for courses as they say, we'll all go our own way to scratch this particular itch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    ...However it is ironic that this post has developed when I have have seen posts complaining the 2 seaters are too powerful
    But not all of us necessarily subscribe to that theory Doug !

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I'm drawing Bomber crew chits for all my multi manned aircraft now. Seems fairer that way, and these rules can supersede the old Nexus ones for two seaters.
    Rob.
    I have to admit, I never cared for this rule. I understand the real life possibilities from MG fire, but where a single card pick wounds a pilot, it can wipe out a bomber crew, esp. a crew that's scattered around a 3 dimensional space.
    I am liking the discussion here about crew wounding; maybe in addition to the regular pilot wound effects, make all his short ranged fire long, and no long ranged fire. Due to the distraction of bleeding out
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  38. #38

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    We have essentially agreed to differ; house rules for those who wish.
    An observer "special ability" (for those who keep crew records or assign special abilities) is another alternative. E.g. "Robust constitution" = can shoot MG if wounded ... same wound rule as for pilot.
    Excellent video clip Dave (Flash); I'd not seen it before and have just sent it to my gaming group. Thanks for sharing.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    We have essentially agreed to differ; house rules for those who wish.
    An observer "special ability" (for those who keep crew records or assign special abilities) is another alternative. E.g. "Robust constitution" = can shoot MG if wounded ... same wound rule as for pilot.
    Excellent video clip Dave (Flash); I'd not seen it before and have just sent it to my gaming group. Thanks for sharing.
    I agree on all your points.

    I, also, like your idea a wounded observer can do photography and bombing. For those folks who don't like house rules, this can be included in the notes for specific scenarios.
    e.g. In this photography scenario, the camera is bolted onto the side of the plane and can be operated by a wounded observer....

    PS Added
    Like Karl, I, also, have to admit, I never cared for the hit which hits several crew at the same time (with the sole exception of the rear gunner for the Caproni ca.3 bomber)
    Last edited by Nicola Zee; 03-29-2015 at 10:12. Reason: PS Added



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