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Thread: PTO - Mitsubishi A6M Colors

  1. #1

    Default PTO - Mitsubishi A6M Colors

    Mitsubishi A6M2 Model 21 - Soryu - 1942




    Mitsubishi A6M3 Model 32 - Solomons - 1943

    Last edited by fast.git; 01-24-2015 at 18:38.

  2. #2

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    OK, two questions: how did any planes survive Midway (pilots, yes; planes ), and did the Lae Wing get the same green over painting as the 251st Koutai?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    OK, two questions: how did any planes survive Midway (pilots, yes; planes :confused:), and did the Lae Wing get the same green over painting as the 251st Koutai?
    *Pilots* survived; planes didn't. After the IJ CVs were bombed, one of the first groups to be tossed off the burning wrecks were the pilots; they weren't trained in damage control, and were of no use during the efforts to save the carriers.More, those pilots who were in the air as CAP wound up ditching next to surface ships. So many pilots survived the battle -- the actual aircraft, not really.

    In short: The caption is a misprint. :)

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    *Pilots* survived; planes didn't. After the IJ CVs were bombed, one of the first groups to be tossed off the burning wrecks were the pilots; they weren't trained in damage control, and were of no use during the efforts to save the carriers.More, those pilots who were in the air as CAP wound up ditching next to surface ships. So many pilots survived the battle -- the actual aircraft, not really.

    In short: The caption is a misprint.
    What Chris said. I read the caption as pilots, not planes... but that's not what it says.

  5. #5

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    I wonder if they painted the replacement planes at Lae as the Soryu's group.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    I wonder if they painted the replacement planes at Lae as the Soryu's group.
    Karl
    It's possible... especially considering the dysfunctional relationship between Japanese Navy and Army. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they did everything they could to separate and distinguish themselves from the other service.

  7. #7

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    What about th e smaller carriers in the invasion force? Couldn't some of them landed on those?
    See you on the Dark Side......

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    What about th e smaller carriers in the invasion force? Couldn't some of them landed on those?
    Not really -- being unengaged meant the small CVs still had full complements onboard; there wouldn't have been room for additional units from the destroyed CVs. For that matter, there was barely room on the "big" CVs for all their acft., which is part of why the bombs which hit them did quite so much damage -- the bombs were bound to hit *something* which was flammable or explosive.... (Conversely: The abysmal quality of US torpedo planes meant that even after _Yorktown_ got its ticket punched, there was sufficient space left on _Enterprise_ and _Hornet_ to take on survivors from it.... :P )

  9. #9

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    Agreed. The timing of the American strikes (decks full of aircraft in various states of re-arming & re-fueling) and the distance between the IJN fleet carriers and the light carriers of the supporting task groups rendered recovery unlikely.

    Interestingly enough, in a 1945 US Navy debriefing/interrogation with Rear Admiral Takata (IJN), he admitted to recovering roughly 70% of the First Air Arm pilots embarked on Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, and Soryu. Of those, roughly half had been wounded. He goes on to claim that roughly 1/3 went back to Japan to convalesce, whereas another 1/3 were absorbed by Third Fleet. This assignment was temporary, however, as those pilots were then transferred to Rabaul area in response to American activity at Guadalcanal. Most of these pilots would be killed around Port Moresby, Buna, and Santa Cruz... the remainder being returned to Japan.

    Btw, here's Takata's wartime c.v.
    • Staff Officer, Third Fleet (November 1942-May 1943)
    • Headquarters, Combined Fleet (May 1943-December 1943)
    • Naval General Staff (December 1943-September 1944)
    • Assistant Chief of Staff, Naval General Staff (September 1944-May 1945)
    • Vice Chief, Naval Affairs Bureau, Navy Ministry (May 1945-End of War)


    And here's a link to the interrogation: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/...JO/IJO-64.html
    Last edited by fast.git; 01-26-2015 at 14:14. Reason: Interrogation, not interview...

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    Agreed. The timing of the American strikes (decks full of aircraft in various states of re-arming & re-fueling) and the distance between the IJN fleet carriers and the light carriers of the supporting task groups rendered recovery unlikely.
    "Decks" being relative -- IJN procedure was to fuel and arm on the *hangar* decks rather than the flight deck (until Midway illustrated this was Not A Good Idea). IJ CV flight decks being unarmored, there was nothing to stop a bomb going through the deck and into the hangar; the effect would be at least the same either way, and possibly worse for it being in the hangar (you know what happens to explosions in confined spaces).

    I suspect this is where the confusion over whether or not the Japanese had a strike lined up on the flight deck when the dive-bombers arrived comes from: A Japanese naval type would say "we had a strike on deck", and not specify *which* deck, because why would he need to -- "everyone knows" he means the hangar deck; just the same way an American would say "we had a strike on deck" and "know" he was referring to the *flight* deck.

    As to the pilot recoveries: True enough -- and then to piss them away like they did....

  11. #11

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    Agreed. The timing of the American strikes (decks full of aircraft in various states of re-arming & re-fueling) and the distance between the IJN fleet carriers and the light carriers of the supporting task groups rendered recovery unlikely.

    Interestingly enough, in a 1945 US Navy debriefing/interrogation with Rear Admiral Takata (IJN), he admitted to recovering roughly 70% of the First Air Arm pilots embarked on Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, and Soryu. Of those, roughly half had been wounded. He goes on to claim that roughly 1/3 went back to Japan to convalesce, whereas another 1/3 were absorbed by Third Fleet. This assignment was temporary, however, as those pilots were then transferred to Rabaul area in response to American activity at Guadalcanal. Most of these pilots would be killed around Port Moresby, Buna, and Santa Cruz... the remainder being returned to Japan.

    Btw, here's Takata's wartime c.v.
    • Staff Officer, Third Fleet (November 1942-May 1943)
    • Headquarters, Combined Fleet (May 1943-December 1943)
    • Naval General Staff (December 1943-September 1944)
    • Assistant Chief of Staff, Naval General Staff (September 1944-May 1945)
    • Vice Chief, Naval Affairs Bureau, Navy Ministry (May 1945-End of War)


    And here's a link to the interrogation: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/...JO/IJO-64.html
    Interestingly Christopher if you care to read the recent book on Midway "Shattered Sword" new information supported by photos taken during the bombing show that the Jap aircraft were indeed below the flight deck when the successful attack occurred.

    The main source of Japanese info on Midway came from Fucheda's book which has now been proved by Japanese historians to have been full of falsehoods.

    I can really recommend "Shattered Sword" as the Authors have drawn on stories from surviving Japanese participants & other Jap documents including Nagumo's report.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    "Decks" being relative -- IJN procedure was to fuel and arm on the *hangar* decks rather than the flight deck (until Midway illustrated this was Not A Good Idea). IJ CV flight decks being unarmored, there was nothing to stop a bomb going through the deck and into the hangar; the effect would be at least the same either way, and possibly worse for it being in the hangar (you know what happens to explosions in confined spaces).

    I suspect this is where the confusion over whether or not the Japanese had a strike lined up on the flight deck when the dive-bombers arrived comes from: A Japanese naval type would say "we had a strike on deck", and not specify *which* deck, because why would he need to -- "everyone knows" he means the hangar deck; just the same way an American would say "we had a strike on deck" and "know" he was referring to the *flight* deck.

    As to the pilot recoveries: True enough -- and then to piss them away like they did....
    That's a fair point.

    To be clear, I'm not at all certain exactly where the Japanese had their aircraft... but I know I've read somewhere that bomb/torpedo stowage and aviation fuel was security was poor...

    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    Interestingly Christopher if you care to read the recent book on Midway "Shattered Sword" new information supported by photos taken during the bombing show that the Jap aircraft were indeed below the flight deck when the successful attack occurred.

    The main source of Japanese info on Midway came from Fucheda's book which has now been proved by Japanese historians to have been full of falsehoods.

    I can really recommend "Shattered Sword" as the Authors have drawn on stories from surviving Japanese participants & other Jap documents including Nagumo's report.
    I will definitely take a look!

  13. #13

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    One request guys..... can we stop referring to the Japanese as Japs, I'm married to a Japanese and find the terms slightly offensive. (I have no problems when its used in historical contents for AAR's, story telling or quotations btw. as it is used in historical content) but in this day and age I think we show a little respect and use the correct name of the people of Japan.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarEast View Post
    One request guys..... can we stop referring to the Japanese as Japs, I'm married to a Japanese and find the terms slightly offensive. (I have no problems when its used in historical contents for AAR's, story telling or quotations btw. as it is used in historical content) but in this day and age I think we show a little respect and use the correct name of the people of Japan.
    I second that.
    The Japanese seem to be the only one regularly called by their derogatory WWII term so maybe some people just aren't aware of it, as in some of us guess it is just a short form?

  15. #15

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    It could be but do you also refer to Americans as Yanks, or Chinese as Chinks?

    As for British, actually I'm a Brit..... and a Scots and these are terms widely used by those groups. However the Japanese do not refer to themselves as Japs and even recently there was a formal complaint issued by the Government of Japan after one of its envoys was called a Jap by the North Korean Envoy.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarEast View Post
    ...do you also refer to Americans as Yanks...
    I'm not arguing the inappropriateness of the term which drew offense... Not at all. Rather, I'm not so sure that "Yank" falls into the same category. It may be my naiveté, but I never considered taking offense when I was referred to as a Yank. It seems more akin to "Brit." Which, I suppose, may also be offensive and prove my ignorance.

  17. #17

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by FarEast View Post
    One request guys..... can we stop referring to the Japanese as Japs, I'm married to a Japanese and find the terms slightly offensive. (I have no problems when its used in historical contents for AAR's, story telling or quotations btw. as it is used in historical content) but in this day and age I think we show a little respect and use the correct name of the people of Japan.
    Fair enough James!
    I actually used a mix of Japanese & Japs in my post but the "Jap" was me being lazy!
    I agree AAR's are another thing as we are trying to re create the atmosphere of the times.

    Any idea what the Japanese pilots called the Americans & Aussies?

  18. #18

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    Looks like I may have to revisit the carrier special damage decks and amend accordingly.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    To be clear, I'm not at all certain exactly where the Japanese had their aircraft... but I know I've read somewhere that bomb/torpedo stowage and aviation fuel was security was poor...
    IJ* CVs didn't have catapults at the time; so they needed the whole of the flight deck to launch acft. (and had to keep their acft. light, to keep stall speed down -- tales of torpedo planes trying to launch are downright horrifying). In order to have the needed flight-deck length, loading had to be done "downstairs".

    Also: The IJN hadn't lost a CV until Coral Sea (and that a light CV); they didn't recognize that actions like draining the fuel lines and refilling with CO2 when not in use was a Good Idea; or that their fire-extinguishing arrangements were suboptimal. _Lexington_ served as an Object Lesson for the US at Coral Sea, and said lesson was applied immediately (part of why _Yorktown_ *almost* survived Midway). The IJN didn't get taught until Midway -- and after that, it was too late to do anything about it, as there was no way in hell they would be able to replace those losses (they wouldn't receive four replacement CVs total until late '44!).

    [*: On the debate concerning using the word "Jap": See how easily I avoid the problem altogether. Talk about Object Lessons....]

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    Fair enough James!
    I actually used a mix of Japanese & Japs in my post but the "Jap" was me being lazy!
    I agree AAR's are another thing as we are trying to re create the atmosphere of the times.

    Any idea what the Japanese pilots called the Americans & Aussies?
    The only information I could find was that the Japanese referred to the Americans as Yankee- but this was a throw back to the boom in baseball culture before and between the wars with Japanese/American Uni teams doing international tours and minor and major league players coming to Japan to hold clinics and coach. Due to the easy phonetics of the word Yankee ( ヤンキー).

    During and after the wars and the occupation of Japan by American forces it took on a more sinister tone especially after the war where it was used to describe young Japanese that shook off Japanese traditions and became absorbed in American culture and obviously US service personnel.

    Today it is still used to describe unruly or rebellious youths of Japanese nationality and no longer associated with the Americans ....

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	975d424f0cefcb42a4f6260bdb9eb725_10894.jpeg 
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    Apart from US military and private vehicles that are registered on base but drive on Japanese roads - these carry a green number plate with a prefixed 'Y' on the registration which is fondly refered to as "yankee".

    I will talk to some of my Japanese historian friends to see if I can get more info on this.

  21. #21

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by FarEast View Post
    The only information I could find was that the Japanese referred to the Americans as Yankee- but this was a throw back to the boom in baseball culture before and between the wars with Japanese/American Uni teams doing international tours and minor and major league players coming to Japan to hold clinics and coach. Due to the easy phonetics of the word Yankee ( ヤンキー).

    During and after the wars and the occupation of Japan by American forces it took on a more sinister tone especially after the war where it was used to describe young Japanese that shook off Japanese traditions and became absorbed in American culture and obviously US service personnel.

    Today it is still used to describe unruly or rebellious youths of Japanese nationality and no longer associated with the Americans ....

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	975d424f0cefcb42a4f6260bdb9eb725_10894.jpeg 
Views:	33 
Size:	39.3 KB 
ID:	155972

    Apart from US military and private vehicles that are registered on base but drive on Japanese roads - these carry a green number plate with a prefixed 'Y' on the registration which is fondly refered to as "yankee".

    I will talk to some of my Japanese historian friends to see if I can get more info on this.
    Thanks James! I would be interested it hearing their opinions.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarEast View Post
    Today it is still used to describe unruly or rebellious youths of Japanese nationality and no longer associated with the Americans ....

    .... Apart from US military and private vehicles that are registered on base but drive on Japanese roads - these carry a green number plate with a prefixed 'Y' on the registration which is fondly refered to as "yankee".
    And there you have it... I did speak in ignorance. I had no idea... thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    Thanks James! I would be interested it hearing their opinions.
    As would I.

  23. #23

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    spoke to another History teacher I work with today via facebook messenger and asked him..... his reply was; "Dare not send from the works internet, not an elegant word"

    So I'm guessing it's not an abbreviation!
    Last edited by FarEast; 01-28-2015 at 21:59.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarEast View Post
    ..... his reply was; "Dare not send from the works internet, not an elegant word"
    Intriguing.

  25. #25

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    Got to say IJN pilots sounds better than the afore mentioned 4 letter name.


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by tikkifriend View Post
    Got to say IJN pilots sounds better than the afore mentioned 4 letter name.
    Agreed.

    And if we wish further distinction, IJNAS (Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service) & IJAAS (Imperial Japanese Army Air Service) would suit our needs admirably.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarEast View Post
    Apart from US military and private vehicles that are registered on base but drive on Japanese roads - these carry a green number plate with a prefixed 'Y' on the registration which is fondly refered to as "yankee".
    In the US military phonetic alphabet, "Y" is "Yankee".

    http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theor...a/alphabet.htm

  28. #28

    Question Re Nick names!

    Just thinking on this for nick names for the Enemy & Allies in both WW1 & WW2.

    Thinking Hun, Frog, Tommy in WW1.
    Jap, Nip, Nazi, etc in WW2 & Yank seemed to be accepted by the US troops themselves & was even used in Nose Art on their Bombers.
    We called them Yanks when they were here in Australia in WW2 . And of course we called the British troops "Pommies".

    Anyone else know more?

  29. #29

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    "Ammi"

    for Americans

    "Franzmänner"

    for French

    "Japsen"

    for Japanese

    "Ivan"

    for Russians

    "Tommy"

    for the British
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  30. #30

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    Ok guys,

    Japanese naval pilots would refer to enemy planes as "TEKI-san". San being an honorific title and a direct translation in to English would be "Mr. Enemy" or a more accurate translation would be "Honorable enemy".

    They would also use the term "Amekou" which was a derogatory term. 'Kou' can be used to make a normal word into a profanity or derogatory term, so in this case it would be like saying "F*#king Americans". However due to the strict code of conduct by Japanese naval and army pilots they would use terms such as "TEKI-san" or the actual name/nickname of the aircraft spotted or risk facing disciplinary action for inappropriate voice coms.

  31. #31

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    We are walking on a thin ice, chaps
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  32. #32

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    ...oh I forgot the "really not friendly" German name for Polish people in WW II.



    Little joke...
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    ...oh I forgot the "really not friendly" German name for Polish people in WW II.
    I did not mean that, buddy, just war names in general. They were not friendly at all! WWI knight habits were over then...we can not help that!
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  34. #34

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by FarEast View Post
    Ok guys,

    Japanese naval pilots would refer to enemy planes as "TEKI-san". San being an honorific title and a direct translation in to English would be "Mr. Enemy" or a more accurate translation would be "Honorable enemy".

    They would also use the term "Amekou" which was a derogatory term. 'Kou' can be used to make a normal word into a profanity or derogatory term, so in this case it would be like saying "F*#king Americans". However due to the strict code of conduct by Japanese naval and army pilots they would use terms such as "TEKI-san" or the actual name/nickname of the aircraft spotted or risk facing disciplinary action for inappropriate voice coms.
    Thanks for that James!
    Fascinating stuff.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    Thanks for that James!
    Fascinating stuff.
    Agreed.

    And now we will return to our regularly-scheduled threaded discussion... with a beautiful example of an A6M over the Solomon Islands!

    Note the early war white/grey roughly over-painted with a dark green camouflage. The engine cowling remains black, and the under-wing and ventral fuselage light grey.

    Mitsubishi A6M3 Model 22 flown by Japanese ace Hiroyoshi Nishizawa
    Solomon Islands, 1943



  36. #36

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    Hiroyoshi Nishizawa flew with the 251st Kokutai, flying out of Rabaul in 1943.



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