Why different rear turret armament for Lancaster bombers?

[Marechallannes]

Hi comrades.

The dambuster version has an Long A / Short B - firing rear turret.

"Grog's the Shot" has only Long A / Short A - firing rear turret.

Why did they castrated the rear gun of the second Lancaster bomber?

It's hard enough to get into close range of the upper turret for attacking fighters.

Had "Grog's the Shot" historical a weaker rear turret defence? I can't imagine that. As well with a modified .50 cal. twin machine gun it should be Long A / Short B.



Here you can see the number of the rear gunner position:



The worst case would be a missprint on the base and the plane card.

[Mau Fox]

Ciao Sven,

don't know if this is the answer but here is a caption from Osprey Combat Aircraft - 35 "Lancaster Squadrons 1944-45".

At page 81 there is a nice pic of this aircraft and the side caption say, among other infos, <LM739 was a No 1 Group leader for the raid, and to assist with daylight formation keeping, its vertical tail surfaces and wing tips were painted in yellow, and its crew fired Verey cartirdges and towed yellow pyrotechnic stars from the rear turret at specified points of the route>.

If you fancy I can provide you the .pdf file of the book.

Mau

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I don't know the answer to that Sven, but if they have made a mistake they have made it on the cards as well.
I will be as interested as you are to hear the justification for that.
Rob.

[Marechallannes]

... and its crew fired Verey cartirdges and towed yellow pyrotechnic stars from the rear turret at specified points of the route

Interesting info, Maurizio.

Could be an option, but hard to beleive that the crew reduced the number of machine guns for those special equipment.

To fire a flare gun from the rear turret shouldn't be a problem, beside the low space in this position anyways. There was a little window in this gunner turret that could be opened.


To "tow yellow pyrotechnic stars" especially from the rear gunner position is hard to believe. But where to fix those stars then...?

[Marechallannes]

I don't know the answer to that Sven, but if they have made a mistake they have made it on the cards as well.
I will be as interested as you are to hear the justification for that...

I don't want to prejudge anybody.

I saw many pictures of MK.III versions with a twin Machine gun in the top turret.

From Wiki:

Armament

Guns: 2 Browning .303 Mark II machine guns in nose turret, 2 Browning .303 Mark II machine guns in upper turret, and 4 Browning .303 Mark II machine guns in the rear turret.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Lancaster


The first published pictures of Lancaster bases showed a missprint, too.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...for-pre-orders

The fact, that the plane card shows the same is astonishing.

[Mau Fox]

Funny thing is that even on the Ares page, "Grog" is depicted as having B/A ... it seems that there has been a typo somewhere during the process ...

[flash]

He's not wrong - though we know things do change between promo shots and production (eg Hannover Q to W deck) and we can't say if it's on its proper stand as the detail is blocked by the model.

[Marechallannes]

I don't know if we get an official answer.

I'm tending to repaint the base of "Grog's the Shot".

[OldGuy59]

The promo pictures were messed up, and I put up a "fixed" card on the announcement thread: B-17s and Lancasters now available for pre-orders!

The stand above is clearly wrong, as it indicates both the front and rear arcs as "1". I don't recall any stand where two arcs were given the same number like this. For the dam buster, with the upper turret removed, there should only be two arcs, and the rear one would be the quad B/A (arc 2). Grog, the Shot, should have a center dual turret arc of A/A (arc 2), and a rear arc of B/A (arc 3), as I put on the posted card.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Do you happen to have one of the Lancaster bomber cards for the Dambusters Mike.
I want to personalize one for Guy Gibson like the Micky Martin P for Popsie one, and can't scan my card in because I encapsulated it and the plastic is reflecting off the scan.
Just a top shot of the card will do. I can alter it myself.
Rob.

[OldGuy59]

Rob,

WGS LancasterMkIIIS Plane Card AJ-GResized.jpg  Views: 160  Size: 197.2 KB  ID: 155704" class="thumbnail" style="float:CONFIG" />

[Flying Officer Kyte]

59 minutes has got to be a record Mike.
I am flabbergasted. In fact my flabber has never been so gasted in my life before. I haven't even got all the decals on yet.
Thank you so much.
Rob.

[OldGuy59]

Rob,
You were helping me NOT do my homework. So, not a good thing, actually.

[Naharaht]

Here is some more information about the yellow pyrotechnics. It comes from the webpage http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/air...ion-11475.html


Sqn Ldr Scott DFC, B Flight Commander, No 100 Squadron, regarded LM739 as his 'personal' aircraft, although the majority of its sixty ops were actually flown by other crews. The Berchtesgaden raid on 25 April 1945 targeting Hitler's Berghof 'Eagles Nest' and accompanying SS barracks, was the last major 'main force' Bomber Command raid of the war in Europe, (although there were a couple of subsequent smaller ops).

The 1 Group Form B operational orders for the raid, (PRO AIR 25/17), specified recognition markings for formation leaders as follows: 'Fins rudders and wing tips of the Group Leaders, (six a/c from 13 Base), are to be painted yellow No other a/c is to be painted. As an additional means of identification, the Group Leaders will fire yellow Verey cartridges and trail yellow pyrotechnic stars from the rear turret at six specified positions. Navigators from 13 Base in the leading vics should be the best available. Marking is to be undertaken by 'Oboe' Mosquitoes.'
Form B also specified details of fuel load, (2,154 gallons, full tanks on a Lanc). and bomb load, (1 x 4,000 Ib, 4 x 1,000 Ib, 1 x 500 Ib, and where possible 1 x 250 Ib). Time on target was to be 09:00hrs for 5 Group aircraft and 09:45 for 1 Group aircraft. The 100 Sqn ORB, (PRO AIR 27/79 identifies that sixteen 100 Sqn Lancasters were detailed for the attack, with fifteen actually bombing and one 'abort'. The Elsham Wolds Operational Record Book Form 540 monthly summaries for April 1945, (PRO AIR 28/255). contains a summary by the Station OC which states that the six leaders of the attack were provided by 100 Sqn. This would indicate that six 100 Sqn Lancasters were painted with the special recognition markings.

The 'Scott crew' comprised Sqn Ldr H F Scott DFC, with Navigator Fit Lt J H. Harwood DFC; Bomb Aimer Pit Off J S Sanderson DFC (Canada); Flight Engineer Fig Off J B McQuaid DFC; Wireless Operator Pit Off R H Jones; Mid-upper Gunner Fit Sgt C A Johnson; Rear Gunner Pit Off J C O'Riordan (Australia).

The crew photos with LM739, taken on completion of their tour of thirty operations in April 1945, actually shows Fit Sgt C Nelson as rear gunner, Pit Off O'Riordan having already completed his tour. Sgt Nelson, the sole survivor of his previous regular crew, stood in as a 'spare bod'. By that time, the Scott crew were actually the 'oldest' crew on the Squadron, having been on the strength since June 1944.

Lancaster Mk Ill, LM739
The aircraft was built by Avro at Yeadon, and delivered to 100 Squadron RAF Grimsby, (Waltham). in September 1944. The Squadron relocated to RAF Elsham Wolds in April 1945. A small numeral '2' was added to the aircraft code letter on the nose and rear fuselage, i.e. Z-Zebra ‘squared’. following relocation to Elsham Wolds because there were then two squadrons with aircraft coded 'Z' on the Station. LM739 was struck of charge, cannibalised for spares and scrapped at a maintenance unit in October 1945, having undertaken 60 operations plus five 'Manna' food drops and one 'Exodus' PoW repatriation.

Of note in the photos of the aircraft are features such as the extended exhaust flame
shields. These were removed altogether, as shown in some photos, once night operations ceased and aircraft were flying 'Manna' food drops and 'Exodus' PoW repatriation missions. The large, later style, bomb-aimer's 'bubble' with IFF ‘Z' equipment and a Perspex downward visibility blister under the nose in place of the bombaimer's window was also fitted. These were open at the rear and actually were not draughty, as warm air was pulled down from the cabin. However, some bomb-aimers reported suffering airsickness from lying with their head in the blister looking down and to the rear to guard against attack. A cockpit blister was fitted on the starboard side only and a 'Window' chaff chute on the starboard side of nose.

The aircraft had late style pitot mast and trailing aerial mounts. The engines were Packard built Rolls Royce Merlin 38s with 'needle-bladed' props, Armament was Browning 0.303 inch throughout. The aircraft was equipped with H2S navigation, the rear of the radome being clear, and 'Rebecca' blind landing systems, with the aerials on the sides of the nose. The rear turret centre Perspex was removed to improve visibility, (if not comfort!), for the rear gunner.

No 100 Sqn aircraft had carried 'Monica' rearward-facing radar to detect approaching aircraft, with the antenna beneath the rear turret, but this was generally removed following the discovery in late August 1944 that Luftwaffe night fighters were using it to 'home onto' their prey using their Flensburg apparatus. It is assumed therefore that by April 1945 the aerial was no longer fitted to LM739. The yellow pyrotechnic stars used on the Berchtesgaden op were trailed by some sort of equipment from the rear turret.

The tail fins were painted yellow on both their inner and outer faces as were wingtips, on the upper and lower surfaces, to denote a formation -leader's aircraft. The mainwheel hubs were painted black, tyres were smooth, untreaded and areas of the main undercarriage legs appear to be in natural aluminium rather than painted black. The tail wheel would probably have been the Marstand anti-shimmy grooved type usually fitted to later Lancasters. Some late Lancs had a long flat cabin heater air-intake on the fuselage side above the starboard wing trailing edge, although LM739 did not.

The bomb tally on the nose was a mixture of yellow and white bombs to denote night and day operations. The swastika 'kill' marking was painted backwards. the reason for this is not known but similar reversed markings are on other aircraft - possibly some sort of superstition or maybe even just a mistake? It represents a Ju 88 nightfighter 'kiIl over Hanau on 18/19 March 1945, whilst being flown by Flg Off Roder.


Standard night bomber scheme camouflage, in Dark Earth and Dark Green, with Night undersurfaces was applied and LM739's exterior finish was heavily weathered, chipped and stained, with rear fuselage windows painted over. The individual aircraft letter on the nose was painted in yellow. Codes were in regular dull Red with no outline. Nose art on both sides featured a beer glass on a dull Red shield with 'Grog's the Shot’ in white on a roundel Blue background and outlined in yellow, the name being part of a toast, 'Grog's the shot for a long life',

The crew's comments.

“We were pleased to be detailed to be a lead aircraft for the Berchtesgaden trip because only the best crews were chosen to do this. Also we wanted to have a go at Hitler and other leading Nazis - we thought they were hiding there with a load of SS and Hitler Youth fanatics, turning it into a last-ditch mountain stronghold. Hitler had his birthday a few days before, (on April 20th), and it wasn't too late for 360 Lancs with 4,000Ib'ers to pay him a visit, (the Force also included sixteen from 617 Sqn dropping 12,000lb Tallboys).

However, we were apprehensive about the high visibility markings and flares because we thought they would attract every Jerry fighter pilot and flak gunner going. It was a long trip, over eight and a half hours, and we had a hell of a way to flyover enemy territory to get there and back. It was the last op' of our tour, we knew the war was ending soon and we didn't want our luck to run out….

As it transpired, there was some flak but we didn't see any fighters; thankfully the Luftwaffe was pretty well finished by then, out of fuel. Just as well because it was a gin clear sky and you could see for miles. We had beautiful views of the Alps, covered with snow and twinkling in the bright morning sunlight. We bombed visually, (because the mountains interfered with the signals for the Pathfinder Mozzies 'Oboe' marking, and from 18,000 ft which was pretty low when you take into account the height of the peaks. We weren't to know that Hitler wasn't down there; he was in Berlin where he shot himself five days later as the Red army closed in. After we made it back, we had our picture taken. I'd love to see photos and film of good old Z-Zebra with those yellow markings."

James McQuaid, DFC, Flight Engineer, No 100 Sqn


"On the 22nd April we did a daylight to Bremen. That trip made my tally up to thirty and so finished my tour. The rest of the lads still had one more to do so I went with them. This last trip came on the 25th and it was to Hitler's 'Eagle's Nest' at Berchtesgaden. At briefing, the orders were that 100 Squadron was to lead the attack all the way to the target. The trip turned out to be the last (Main Force) operation over Europe, so 'Scatty' and the rest of our Squadron led the whole of the Bomber Force, (actually led 1 Group, 5 Group bombed 45 mins earlier). Our tour was now completed. We had been together for nearly a year, (during which they had become the 'oldest' crew on the Squadron). We had lived through some hair-raising moments but had got through with thanks mainly to the skill of our pilot - 'Scatty' was the best skipper a crew could have had!"

Jimmy Johnson - Mid-upper Gunner

Continued:-

"We were a lead aircraft for the Berchtesgaden raid and dropped flares en route and towed yellow pyrotechnic stars from the tail. They were to aid formation and keep the bomber stream as compact as possible. They were streamed out on cables from the aircraft after take-off once we reached operational height and I cannot remember exactly but I think we jettisoned them over the sea when returning home as I seem to remember 'Mac’ saying, "I think we can ditch these lights now Skipper' It was glorious weather with clear visibility and a spectacular view flying over the Alps. 'Scatty' commented "I wouldn't like to try a crash landing here." We were told at briefing that we expected to catch a lot of Nazi top brass hiding out there awaiting the end of hostilities but the rumour that circulated afterwards was that a lot of children had been evacuated there from the Ruhr."

Reggie Jones - Wireless Operator


The mid-upper turret gun damage is also incorrect. It is given as A long range and B short range. I think that there are misprints on the base and card. "Grog's the Shot" was supposed to be a typical standard Lancaster.

[Marechallannes]

Thank you for the info, David.

I'm reading Middlebrooks "Nuremberg Raid" at the moment. (The German translation: Die Nacht in der die Bomber starben)

My respect for the crews of the British Bomber Command is still growing.

59 minutes has got to be a record Mike.
I am flabbergasted. In fact my flabber has never been so gasted in my life before. I haven't even got all the decals on yet.
Thank you so much.
Rob.

Hey Rob, if you found a set of decals that fit for a Lancaster repaint, please share the info.

I plan to order a second "Grog's" & "Dambuster" version.

[OldGuy59]

The promo pictures were messed up, and I put up a "fixed" card on the announcement thread: B-17s and Lancasters now available for pre-orders!

The stand above is clearly wrong, as it indicates both the front and rear arcs as "1". I don't recall any stand where two arcs were given the same number like this. For the dam buster, with the upper turret removed, there should only be two arcs, and the rear one would be the quad B/A (arc 2). Grog, the Shot, should have a center dual turret arc of A/A (arc 2), and a rear arc of B/A (arc 3), as I put on the posted card.

...

The mid-upper turret gun damage is also incorrect. It is given as A long range and B short range. I think that there are misprints on the base and card. "Grog's the Shot" was supposed to be a typical standard Lancaster.

Dave,
Exactly. It is a messed up release. The stand is wrong for any version of Lancaster. I hope the cards are better.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Thank you for the info, David.

I'm reading Middlebrooks "Nuremberg Raid" at the moment. (The German translation: Die Nacht in der die Bomber starben)

My respect for the crews of the British Bomber Command is still growing.



Hey Rob, if you found a set of decals that fit for a Lancaster repaint, please share the info.

I plan to order a second "Grog's" & "Dambuster" version.

Sven.
In the main I use Shed decals. I also use their code letters. For the serial numbers I produced my own.
Put a white patch down and print clear letters on black background. When in place the white shows through.
Rob.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

That is a very interesting article Dave.
I found it extremely enlightening.
Thanks for posting.
Rob.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Rob,
You were helping me NOT do my homework. So, not a good thing, actually.

That's the first time I have been guilty of getting someone out of doing their homework Mike.
Most of my working life has been involved with my ensuring that they do their homework.
Rob.

[Mau Fox]

Here is some more information about the yellow pyrotechnics.

Interesting infos here!

Thanks!

Mau

[Marechallannes]

I would be interested in an official answer...

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I would be interested in an official answer...

Yes we certainly would Sven.
Rob.

[AlgyLacey]

But who is going to field the first repainted of a late-run Canadian Lanc with a Martin 250 (.50cal) mid-upper and Rose-Rice tail turrets?

[Naharaht]

On the Canadian Lancasters the Martin .50 turret was sited further forward, just behind the wing, to preserve the longitudinal balance. So you would have to move the turret as well as repainting the machine, Dave.

[Marechallannes]

Sorry, I did not see the question. Alas, it seems that the statistics for firecones 2 and 3 on grog the shot's cards and bases were inverted - the B at short range should be for cone 3, not for 2.

Ok, seems I have to do some work on my Lancaster bases.