series 3 re-print time line?

**'Warspite'** · 02-18-2015 17:26

Originally Posted by Flying Helmut

The colour SHOULD be grey, but not the pale blue Nexus gave us.

"Silbergrau", or Silver Grey, is a shade of Grey, not of silver, in the same way that Prussian Blue is a shade of Blue, not of Prussian!
A highly reflective silver colour would give away the presence of an aircraft in the sky far too easily, whereas a dull pale grey provides adequate camouflage against clouds.

The sources I have all suggest silver GREY, not silver, and the method of paint manufacture in the Pfalz warplanes books (and an Osprey) describe the addition of aluminium powder to the paint mix, which will give a nice pale grey, not a metallic sheen.

All written sources suggest that silver was the most prominent colour in pilots' memory as it also was with the mid-war Nieuports. Camouflage was not an issue, just as it was not an issue for late-war USAAF aircraft. It is also tempting to suggest it might have had some UV value against sunlight deterioration of the fabric but that is a pure guess on my part.

The 1965 Profile publication describes it as "…aluminium dope (silbergrau) which was a matt or satin silver finish..."

Most photos in the Profile publication suggest the metallic finish was wide-spread and prominent.

A small photo of a 'mint condition' Pflaz, possibly a works shot, in the same Profile shows the metal cowling around the engine was slightly more prominent due to its colour and gloss sheen. I would suggest this would model as true 'silver' on the metalwork surfaces and something nearer to gunmetal on the doped surfaces.

**Flying Helmut** · 02-19-2015 02:11

Originally Posted by 'Warspite'

All written sources suggest that silver was the most prominent colour in pilots' memory as it also was with the mid-war Nieuports. Camouflage was not an issue, just as it was not an issue for late-war USAAF aircraft. It is also tempting to suggest it might have had some UV value against sunlight deterioration of the fabric but that is a pure guess on my part.

The 1965 Profile publication describes it as "…aluminium dope (silbergrau) which was a matt or satin silver finish..."

Most photos in the Profile publication suggest the metallic finish was wide-spread and prominent.

A small photo of a 'mint condition' Pflaz, possibly a works shot, in the same Profile shows the metal cowling around the engine was slightly more prominent due to its colour and gloss sheen. I would suggest this would model as true 'silver' on the metalwork surfaces and something nearer to gunmetal on the doped surfaces.

"All written sources.." - excuse me, ALL? You've read them ALL? Every one? Then you're a better reader than me!

"pilot's memory" - I can't find any sources where they got it right! Rickenbacker describing Klieforth's Fokker DVII as having "circles" on the fuselage sides, when in fact it had a coiled serpent; WW2 pilots describing 1941/2 Zeros as "white", when all evidence shows them to have been a VERY pale greeny-beige; Jasta 18 Fokkers described as "red nose and grey aft fuselage", when we know it was white.......the list goes on and on.
Pilots have far too much to do in combat than accurately discern the colour of their opponents aircraft, which can appear to change anyway under the effects of direct/indirect sunlight, shadow etc. Also, a great many pilot recollections were several, or indeed many, years after the event, and subject to inaccuracies owing to elapsed time and faded memory.

I don't have the 1965 Profile publication, but "matt or satin silver finish" sounds EXACTLY like what I'm describing - a very pale silvery GREY!

I don't have a single reference to the widespread "metallic" finish.

The Ospreys I have with Pfalzes in them:-
Aces of Jagdstaffel 17
Pfalz Scout Aces of World War 1
Jasta 18 The Red Noses
Jagdgeschwader Nr II

these ALL describe, and have illustrations (colour profiles) of GREY aircraft, and not a single one in metallic silver.

Phaeon Models extensive range of colour schemes for their Pfalz DIII and DXII models ALL show grey - not a single one silver.

The new 2013 book "Pfalz - Fighter Aircraft from Rheinland the Wine Country" also agrees - grey.

I'm painting my Pfalzes "German Pfalz Silbergrau" a paint from the authentic bi-plane colours range available from Model Skills - Specialist Products for Bi-plane Modellers; and it's Grey!

**Timmo UK** · 02-19-2015 02:31

A matt finish silver will appear to be light grey. The best way to get this on model is to paint it silver and matt varnish it. I'm not sure if the old Humbrol enamel colour called aluminium is still available but that was a matt finish silver and again would be perfect.

To clarify above I don't believe the aluminium dope used on the Nieuports and Pfalz aircraft to be anywhere even remotely close to gunmetal in hue. Gunmetal is a very dark silver that in some light will appear blackish blue colour. Aluminium dope is a much whiter metal.

**flash** · 02-19-2015 04:17

Humbrol 56 Tim, I used it on mine and got panned for it as it's not light or grey enough.
I tried some Revell acrylic aluminium with some light grey mixed in recently, that comes out pretty good but whether it is even near correct is a matter of conjecture.

**Timmo UK** · 02-19-2015 04:27

Sounds good to me –*the thing is the aircraft would weather quickly and I suspect that different batches of Ali dope were slightly different colours. Then a colour like silver will change in the light plus you have to allow for the effect of painting such a small airframe and use a slightly lighter tone – a minefield but all good fun!

**Dom S** · 02-19-2015 05:20

Bear in mind that you're trying to hit a moving target here chaps - the "right" silbergrau is like the "right" PC10 - the reality could differ substantially even before it left the factory, never mind after weathering. For my 2p, I'd have a metallic element to it for an early production D.III (I've not tried it yet, but my starting point would probably be 50/50 a light silver metallic and Vallejo "Aluminium" which is a flat weathered aluminium colour, ie. a very pale non-metallic grey.) For later production (which had less aluminium flakes and more grey pigment) I'd definitely go to a flat light grey.

I definitely wouldn't put any blue in either mix, but for a factory fresh machine, a bit of metallic isn't unthinkable, at least for early machines. With weathering the colour would definitely go "flat" - as Timmo says, simply hitting a metallic paint with a good matt finish will replicate that pretty well. For later production, a flat grey is definitely better.

As a PS, I wouldn't rely on colour plates to decide between grey and metallic - most simply don't attempt to do so, as replicating a metal finish in colour artwork is such a pain in the neck. Ospreys invariably show Pfalzes as flat grey, but they pretty much do the same with highly polished metal skinned jets.

**Flying Helmut** · 02-19-2015 12:50

Fair points all, thanks for your input!

I'm really looking forward to the Series 4 reprint, and when it comes I intend to buy LOTS of Pfalz DIIIs.

If they are "silbergrau" light grey, I will fly them.

If they are silver, I will repaint them "German Pfalz Silbergrau" (grey), and THEN fly them!

Now, back on topic with the Series 3 reprint - when can I get some more Nieuport 17s?

**'Warspite'** · 02-23-2015 14:29

Originally Posted by Flying Helmut

snipped for brevity

I don't have the 1965 Profile publication, but "matt or satin silver finish" sounds EXACTLY like what I'm describing - a very pale silvery GREY!

I should, of course, have said: "all written sources available to me" - I do have rather a lot.

I have a printed copy of the 1965 Profile and I can supply you with a PDF version if you wish (I have already suppled one to Nicola).

It shows 33 different machines in silver/grey and only four machines in dark colours or lozenge. A fifth machine is in Dutch service and is painted green with orange circles.

May I suggest that we may both be 'violently agreeing with each other' over the same thing in much the same way as one person sees a glass half empty and another sees the same glass half full.

PM me with your email if you wish a copy of the Pfalz PDF.

Barry

**Flying Helmut** · 02-23-2015 14:42

Hi Barry

Remove "violently" from your post and I'll happily subscribe to it!

I really don't mind what colour you choose to paint your Pfalzes - once you've paid for them, built them etc, they are all yours and you can do what you like to them.

I actually own 4 silver Pfalzes already - repaints I bought on ebay from other Drome members. Three with a gunmetally silver are in the queue for repainting, because they don't look right to me (two more have a gunmetal/silver underside, and this looks VERY wrong, and will be changed to silbergrau fairly soon.
One I will keep in silver - it looks LOVELY and I don't want to alter it , even though I personally think it's incorrect.

Thanks for your kind offer of the Pfalz PDF - I would very much like to take you up on that!

cheers

Tim