Oh that is just... Glorious!
Dave,
I was going to try using Illustrator to vector draw the images, but if you have found a solution that's acceptable, great!
Anything else I can do from this end?
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Thanks Mike, a bit of research on the markings of the planes would be helpful in a month or so. I have 10 Gladiators lined up, 6 Swordfish, 8 Hurricanes (?) and I can pour Fulmers and Albacores (?) if required.
I hope to start cutting foam board tomorrow! This one will be fun! Going where no sea elves have gone before!
Dave,
For the Hurricanes of 46 Sqn RAF (max 18. but 6 would be great) and their stint in Norway, I have found an unusual paint scheme. Look at this:
It appears to have the port wing painted black, as per this scheme:
You'd almost think the swabbies had at them when they were on the Glorious during the trip to Norway. The Letter Code for the squadron is "PO".
The best I can find for the 802 Sqn Sea Gladiators (max 9 aboard. There were 10 Gladiators from 263 Sqn) is this:
There were diamonds on the top wing, as indicated, but some debate about the color. Some of the B&W photos suggest the diamonds were darker than the roundels, and may have been black, not blue. In any event, not the same color as the roundels.
For 823 Sqn Swordfish (6 max), this was the scheme up to June 1940:
The best top view I can find is an 810 Sqn bird:
Hope this helps.
PS: The 263 Sqn Gladiators were either of these paint schemes:
Gloster Gladiator Mk. II, 263 Squadron RAF, Lake Lesjaskog, Norway, April 1940
This Mk II Gladiator is one of the first ones of 263 Squadron that went out to Norway in the Spring of 1940. As you can see, the colour scheme is a little different from the usual: some of these aircraft were repainted on board ship by Royal Naval personnel along with their own Skuas, using the early wartime Naval style camouflage of Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey uppersurfaces with Sky Grey undersurfaces. This was felt to be much more appropriate to the prevailing weather conditions in Norway at that time of year than the usual green & brown shades. The serial number has been painted over, a common feature on many RAF airframes just before and early in WW II.
Source: http://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/cam...ter-gladiator/
The second image is similar to a Corgi plane (the Corgi plane is standard RAF Dark Green and Dark Earth, not the lighter colored bottom in the image above), and the Corgi plane is supposed to be for the same period as the top image, so who knows.
Last edited by OldGuy59; 12-09-2014 at 20:41.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Absolutely astonishing, Dave. As always.
I've got the popcorn and the chair.
Bring it on.
I agree with Joaquim - this will truly be a treat to watch come to fruition! There is so much inspiring talent here. Between Mike and Dave, what in the way of gaming pieces/accessories can't be achieved...
All the best,
Matt
I look forward to seeing the results of your Elves labours with the greatest anticipation, just as usual Dave.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
A great project looking forward to end result
So its Saturday, got done with work early so what to do?
cut the parts out of paper, one each, spray glued them to foam board . . .
rough cut the number of panels of each needed to make 2 ships . . .
pinned the foam board panels together in sets and visited the scroll saw . . .
started hot gluing the sides to the formers and added the lower front launch deck . . .
pulled the stern to shape and added the crew deck former
placed the top flight deck on . . .
crimped the bottom of the rear of the flight deck to take its shape
also needed to crimp form the front edge . . .
glimpse of the deck in place x 2
stern crane deck
daylight bow decks
rough control towers fitted
looking ready to paint and it is now 4:00 pm, nice afternoons effort, and not a elf in sight, Santa parade in town, what a union!
where did I put all those Gladiators that flew in this week?
simply amazing!
What Helmut said
Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!
What Helmut and Guntruck said.
Wow!
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Goodness, gracious, sakes alive! What a wonderful thing you've done here, Clipper! And I absolutely LOVE the 46 Sqn Hurricane paint scheme...if you all keep this up, I am going to have to get into the WW2 side of things...stop - stop NOW!!!
All the best,
Matt
That model bridges the gap between the sublime and the ridiculous very well Dave.
In refining that model down to its basics in construction, you have brought hand crafted work within the capability of the masses.
Well some of the masses anyway.
Well done that man yet again.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Another great project David, well done mate
I'm just sat here shaking my head in wonder, neat Dave, very neat
There is something ultra cool about a carrier deck filled with biplanes! Pictures to follow after my horizontal therapy (nap) : )
My wife's first question would be 'Where will you store it?' - well, her first question after - 'What on earth do you need that for?'
Yeah. Amazing, that. Exactly what happened here when I showed her threads in the past, and especially about the Zeppelin. But after BottosCon, it was her that put me up to getting a carrier in the first place (Link: BottosCon 2015 - Preparation and Planning). Now that Dave is building it, the challenge is to find a place for it. I don't have a big enough table at home to use it on, either.
Last edited by OldGuy59; 01-03-2015 at 07:35.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
As the HMS Glorious is taking shape, I started working on the scenario in earnest. This carrier is going to be big, but exactly how big? My Ares Coast map only has a strip of water on it. I don't think it will be big enough for the carrier. Start looking at options, Mike. I quickly looked into the Sails of Glory mats, as a possible option, maybe one of them matched up to the coast map?
Just how big is this carrier? Pictures are good, but I'm not clear on the scale and size. Because I was working on better detailed drawings for Dave [clipper1801], I took the top drawing and did up a scale image. 47 inches long?! Is that right? Darn! It took three 11X17" sheets of paper to print the thing!
I dug out my Hurricanes, and with the cut-and-glued top-deck image, put it on my Skype table. This is only two dimensions, and it is HUGE!
Side 3/4 view. This view shows the usual SKype end of the table, and is 1 meter (39inches) across.
End view. The full table top is 1 meter (39inches) by 1.86 meter (73 inches).
table top view. With a three dimensional carrier, I'm going to need more pegs. The main flight deck will sit, at least, three to four inches off the table. Even without altitude rules, I will need to put planes on extended pegs. Dave's pictures of the USS Hornet indicate the visual issue for planes and the flight deck (USS Hornet in 1/200 scale. Seven pegs from waterline to flight deck for that carrier, so something similar for the HMS Glorious. I'm gonna need LOT more pegs.
If I wanted a show-piece for a convention, this is going to make a splash. I'm gonna need more room for a scenario with bombers and this thing.
Tell me I got the scale wrong Clipper! And not that it is bigger, either!
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Mike, that carrier looks so nice.
Super Carrier Mike, but you have to move into another league when you start fielding something like that.
For sea, I picked up some plastic table cover from Dunelm Mill. It is nearly a match for the sea on the mats, is four times the size of a mat and cost half the price of one.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Your local fabric shop might have a suitable substitute for a seascape that you could paint a coastline on, Mike...but the tablecloth idea is also super, as Rob suggests. I would have to think you could find something more cost effective to use for your scenario. I just love where all of this is going! It will be a great game.
All the best as it begins to come together!
Matt
Matt,
I am keeping options open. My Better Half has a table cloth that's blue and big enough, that she might be willing to lend for GottaCon, but painting it will not be an issue. Thinking this over, no aircraft carrier commander would get that close to shore, even with the deep fiords in Norway. Not enough room to maneuver, and forward speed was an issue in launching planes without catapults. So, revising my plan, open water only, with land assumed close by (but "off map").
Dave,
I found something in my scouring of the interweb. A different paint scheme for the RN Swordfish in 1940:
With the coming of war, the FAA's aircraft were quickly done up in camouflage colours. Initially they were in Dark Sea Grey and Extra Dark Slate Grey (a greenish colour to you and I), with the upper surfaces of the lower wings being in Dark Sea Grey and Light Slate Grey to provide shadow compensation from the upper wing. The undersurfaces are in Sky Grey (NOT Sky)
Fairey Swordfish Mk.I P4084, No.765 Sqn FAA, 1940
An interesting mix of roundels are visible on K8422, the fuselage roundel is now of type A1, upperwing are type B, while those on the bottom wing are type A.
Fairey Swordfish Mk.I K8422, No.820 Sqn FAA, 1940
So, some type of RN camo should be on the Swordfish on the Glorious, too.
Source: History in Illustration - Swordfish
Looking at this, and the markings of the Sea Gladiators in Malta, June 1940, it could be that all the Gladiators on the Glorious were painted the same, and that is how the RAF Gladiators got their coat of paint. The RAF planes retained their squadron codes, the RN planes may have gotten letter codes (IE: like the Malta planes) or the three digit markings from their previous coloring (IE: G6A). As the Glorious went down with almost all hands lost, photographic evidence was lost. So, we can make it up, and who's to argue.
Last edited by OldGuy59; 12-22-2014 at 11:20.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
As you say Mike it is a moot point. This the Royal Navy we are talking about now. The Senior service were quite likely to do it their way. Things varied from Carrier to Carrier, not only in camo but also in the application of registration numbers.
Even from action to action the aircraft may be altered in paint scheme, hence the controversy about the black under belly for the Taranto mission.
I would say that if you intend to use them over a period of time and in different combat zones, go with a generic camo that suits you best.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Your 'deep water' assumption makes sense, Mike - all blue for a playing field opens up all sort of options for you. The new Swordfish schemes above are striking, too - not that the earlier ones weren't, as well, but these look more 'warlike'.
This is such a cool project - thanks for making us a part of it!
All the best,
Matt
One thing I did just notice was the grey Torpedo. I was under the impression that all live Torps were painted black.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Rob,
I'm using the Interweb for an information source. We all know how reliable that is? I take no responsibility for the images, nor their correctness. I only post them as suggestions. I do have personal experience with aircraft and painting (heck, I have personal experience of ship painting!), but WWII is a bit before my time.
BTW: Mortar-launched depth charges were navy blue with yellow high-explosive bands. Ship launched torpedoes were grey in the NATO RCN, IIRC.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Rob,
I took no offence. Sorry if I was abrupt. I know you don't snipe. It is like you said above, carriers painted their planes at will. Why not torpedo's, too?
I was posting the images for consideration, and discussion. We can discuss.
And current NATO standard paint schemes have no bearing on RN 1940 torpedos.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Thanks Mike.
I did not want to upset you. It is good to know I didn't.
Have a very good Christmas over in B.C.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
What happens when you take a few Bf-109s and some 250kg bombs and try to sink a carrier?
I tried out the paper template for the HMS Glorious and my available BoB planes. I used Neil's [Skafloc] Air to Ship rules, and his HMS Arc Royal management template to run the ship. Very helpful, Neil!
The 47 inch long HMS Glorious template took up the end of two 60x30" tables, and we had the Bf-109s run in from the far end.
Not clearly visible in this shot, are the approaching Bf-109s (one on the far right, and one in the middle of the mats) and the attempted intercept by the CAP Hurricane (on the base of the center Bf-109, so no shot). The two ready Hurricanes on deck were not allowed to launch until five moves were done, and they started their take-off rolls after this picture.
Just as Shane released the bombs.
The AA cannons were the only real opposition to Shane's planes on the way in, as it took three moves to get the Hurries off the deck, and they were flying in the wrong direction. I turned them around, and you can see them on the right, as they try to get back around to attack the Bf-109s. Even with the Bf-109s using only slow speed maneuvers while loaded with their bombs, they closed and attacked the ship in ten maneuvers. Both Shane's planes are dropping their bombs here, and the right plane took three AA hits (C damage) as he dropped his bomb (the dice were the AA markers, and the reloading indicators for the game. 6 indicated ready to fire on the 4.7 inch guns, and when used for shots, a 5 indicated short range, the 6 indicated long. It turned out not to matter, as we considered all 4.7 inch shots as proximity AA rounds, so always C damage at any range). The octuple 20mm turrets were able to fire every turn, but only a single range ruler for range - B/A damage). [Edit: the octuple turrets were 40mm's, 2 pounder guns, actually. D/C damage, not B/A. And I had all the ranges 1/2'ed. Sorry, Neil.]
At this point, my CAP Hurricane would have been in the drink, as I misjudged the distance I needed to cover to come back to the carrier and land. I had thought that ten maneuvers of fuel would be enough for an intercept and a return trip, but I should have allowed for fifteen or more. As it was, it took at least fifteen to get back on the deck, and by then, he was dodging around bomb craters on the deck.
HMS Glorious bombed and burning.
The two bombs (55 points of damage each) have hit the forward flight deck, basically destroying any chance of launching planes from the front of the ship. These bombs would have penetrated the deck, and damaged the hangar beneath, including any planes. Additionally, Shane hit the forward elevator, taking it out of action. This essentially takes out any chance of launching more Hurricanes, as they were all in the forward hangar area. I surmised that for more Hurricanes to be launched, all the Swordfish planes in the back of the hangar would have to be moved to the upper deck and the Hurricanes brought through the hangar to the back elevator. Within the time frame of this game, it would take forever, and therefore no more spawning of Hurricanes.
Rather than immediately flee back to his side of the board, and take advantage of spawning more bomb-carrying Bf-109s, Shane took his planes zig-zaging down the deck, straffing the cannons. However, his badly mauled second plane took a hit from the rear octuple 20mm mount and crashed into the deck of the carrier. I took a D damage chit for this, but it was a zero! We considered this a glancing slide across the deck and continuing off the side of the deck into the water. One of my Hurricanes is coming back down the deck from the right, but no where near enough for a shot, and my second plane had made some wrong turns. Also, I was taking him out to intercept the planes that were not arriving immediately, so he was pretty much hanging out there uselessly. The plane card under Shane's second Bf-109 (toward the stern) was me practicing with the splashed Hurricane. It was no longer part of the scenario, and was only to figure out what it would take to land a plane and calculate the necessary number of maneuvers for future CAP planes. Getting him lined up for a three card landing was not easy, especially with burning wreckage and bomb craters on the deck.
We call the game after three hours, with two Bf-109s shot down (one on the deck and one spawned plane was bullet-sandwiched by the Hurries and cannoned out of the air before reaching the carrier), a splashed Hurricane and a badly shot up HMS Glorious. Another wave of bombs would have put paid to the Glorious. Only the two fighters would have been available for defense, and three of the 4.7 inch guns would have been usable, as Shane had done a deadly job of straffing the cannons with his fighters. Total damage to the HMS Glorious at this point was 160 points of 223 total. A wrecked elevator and deck, lots of damaged aircraft in the hangar, for the loss of two planes.
Well done, Shane!
Last edited by OldGuy59; 12-31-2014 at 00:32.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Sounds about right Mike.
A Carrier on its own with no AA escort would be a sitter. With Glorious being an early Carrier with too few AA defences even more so.
It is easy to see why the Fleet had to fly all day protection cover.
my dad told me about one episode when the forard lift jammed about a foot below deck level, and a patrol were returning just about running on fumes. They had to slant a sheet of steel up from the lift floor to the lip of the deck in the direction that the planes were landing on and then pray. With a few bumps and one missing with its hook and ending up in the barrier they all got down O.K. He was more surprised, because one of the pilots was renowned for pranging aircraft when landing. They left him up till last and to everyone's relief he then made his first perfect landing.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
It is amazing how much damage a few bombs can make. I have gone back through Neil's [Skafloc] rules, and I messed up a few things. The octuple 2 pdr mountings should have been 2 ruler range and D/C damage, not one ruler and B/A damage. The 4.7" guns were 4/2 rulers range, too. I got the "no shooting inside 1/2 ruler" part right.
The special damage cards that Neil made up are good, but don't match the possible damage to a carrier (in his defense, he didn't list carriers as targets, though). I will have to consult with him on what would happen with the bigger bombs (e.g.: small bombs might damage the deck, but not penetrate. I think that 550 lbs bombs would definitely rip a gaping hole in the decks and the blast damage in the hangar might set off some of the planes as collateral damage. What would an He-111's bomb load do?).
Mitchell had it right, planes make a mess of ships.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
You are right Mike.
Even the Illustrious with its box girder construction and extra heavily armoured deck was not proof against 500 lb bombs.
If you read my preamble on Operation Excess when it comes out you will see what extensive damage can be done within an open hanger deck.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Excellent AAR, Mike. The size of the Glorious is... well... glorious.
REP!
Actually the armoured deck was (it was 500kg bombs that pierced it). Penetrations were from larger weapons or from hits on unarmoured sections. One of the reports I have in my office store is the official damage report from the attacks at sea and subsequent attacks whilst in Malta. They make fascinating reading. We still use them for validation of damage prediction software codes
What a lovely little test scenario, Mike. I look forward to more as you work out the kinks prior to running it at your con later this year.
And seeing the Glorious next to the coast playing mat prompts me to ask the following - what scale are the playing mats 'done' in? Do we know or is it addressed elsewhere on the Forum? At what height are our little planes assumed to be flying for things to be this size on the ground? I have been thinking of making some trench/no-man's-land overlays for the existing mats, and I'd like to get it sort of right... I've thought of using the target cards supplied with the game as templates, but in order to do "The Front" I'd like a bit more guidance, if anyone happens to know.
All the best,
Matt
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Sadly I have been grounded by a bout of pluerisy and have to stay home and "rest" so I will be working on some final details on the Glorious : )
Not been your winter Dave,
I'm really sorry to hear that. Hope you are not feeling too bad with it.
I spent three nights propped up in a chair with that many years ago.
When asked if it hurt, I replied, "Only when I breath."
Get better soon. Remember that your groupies need you, to say nothing of your Elves.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
While I'm glad you have an "official" excuse to play hooky from work and work on something more preferable to your daily grind, I really DO hope you're feeling better soon! Perhaps a little elven tender loving care will help?
Hang in there, Dave. Sending good vibes your way...
All the best,
Matt
Thanks all its a yearly affliction so I am used to my limits. Mike, have you a final list of planes you will need, I will do some looking through the storage hangers : )
Take it easy Clipper! Get well soon.
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