B-17F side and nose guns question
Could anybody of you guys explain the combined frontal firing arcs of B-17F on the base and the card?
The arcs confuse me a bit. The side gun (on the left) seems to have app. 180 degrees arc (how come?) while the nose one is rather narrow.
Am I missing something?
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
if the base is the same as whats pictured on ares page, then im also confused. all of the firing arc showed would be covered by the front guns but none of them would cover the entire arc. both cheek guns wouldve covered about 35-40 degrees on their respective sides and the nose gun about 45 degrees to the front. all of them wouldve been more constricted due more to lack of room to maneuver them in the cramped nose compartment rather than restrictions to the gimbal mounts. its also important to note that the only crew in the nose were the bombardier and navigator so only 2 of them can be manned at any one time. the top turret arc seems overly restricted to me in light of books and memoirs ive read and vets ive talked to as it should only be restricted in the rear 20 or so degrees (if even that much) directly to the rear encompassing the tail and rudder. the waist arc seems restrictive as well.
Andrea, we need your assistance here
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
Obviously the Belle is only equiped wit one cheek gun.
The gun is mounted on the left.
It's firing arc on the plane card & base is to the forward-right.
Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!
Then why it is so? This left cheek gun can not fire to the right sideOriginally Posted by Marechallannes
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
Maybe our Chinese friends monted the gun on the wrong side.
...or the plane card isn't correct.
The base and card should be the mandatory.
(I found pictures of the Bell with only one cheek gun)
Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!
but in reality the memphis belle had both cheek guns as per standard for f models and she also had nose guns which wasnt standard but a common field modification before the advent of the chin turret on the later f models and most g models.
OK, so we know there should be a cheek gun on both sides of the nose and the forward firing one. Problem is my model has only one cheek gun, on the left side. What about your models, guys?
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
Same here, Andrzej.
Found another picture with no front gun.
I think Andrea did a good job in research of the used minature version here.
Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!
i was intrigued by the question so i did a bit of pic research. all the pics i could find were of the belles stateside warbond tour. they all showed both cheek guns and 2 nose guns mounted in separate gimbals. i thought they couldve been modified after she returned to the states so i had a look at "The Memphis Belle - A Story Of A Flying Fortress (1944)" on youtube which is an USAAF propaganda film about her last combat mission. she had both cheel guns on her last mission but only 1 nose gun,port side, but you could clearly see the gimbal for the starboard side it just didnt have a gun mounted for whatever reason. the view of the nose is particularly nice toward the end where shes turning around to park on her hardstand. in any case itd be easy to run her however personal taste dictates with a few house rules so i dont think it really matters how many guns are visible. other than a 1/200 pewter mini none of my other b-17 minis that small or smaller have any guns showing, just the turrets and positions.
This may not help but interesting all the same - German mock up on how to attack the porcupine !
Having looked at this image Andrzej & from what you've said I see why it would be confusing !
Is the big arc for the cheek guns and the little arc for a single nose gun or vice versa ?! Appears both arcs are for A A damage guns. This may be one of the historical configurations where a gun was shipped out for some reason.
Last edited by flash; 12-05-2014 at 10:32.
Loads of pics with guns on both sides - trying to find one where you can see both at the same time is a little harder !
Last edited by flash; 12-05-2014 at 10:33.
This may not help but interesting all the same - German mock up on how to attack the porcupine !
Fantastic Dave! Wherever did you find that?
Having looked at this image Andrzej & from what you've said I see why it would be confusing !
Is the big arc for the cheek guns and the little arc for a single nose gun or vice versa ?! Appears both arcs are for A A damage guns. This may be one of the historical configurations where a gun was shipped out for some reason.Well I reckon that the nose gun should at least have a central 45 degree firing arc.
Thanks for your comments and the pics, chaps. So we will have to attach the missing gun to the right cheek of the Belle...
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
Ah, I found that on Wiki page for the B.17 - clicked on a pic and it came up with a scroll option - well, would be rude not to - and I found a treasure trove of pics of various configurations and that one
Does the model have two nose guns as seen in the photo's Andrzej ? Can see only one in this image.
I was thinking the big arc (2) may be for the all round coverage provided by the two cheek guns and one (the left) nose gun and the small arc (1) may be for the right hand nose gun as an extra to the front.
This could be an incarnation of a config where there was a single nose gun and the two cheek mounts:
This is not the MB, one of the copies, but look at the nose layout:
Single nose gun !
Think you need to contact Andrea for the definitive answer.
Last edited by flash; 12-06-2014 at 01:12.
That makes a lot of sense, Dave. From a few quick reads, the F models had a nose gun, manned by the bombardier, and 2 cheek guns, both manned by the navigator. So you have 2 men and 3 (or 4 in the case of MB) guns.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
My model is equipped with single forward firing gun and one (only one) left cheek gun. The right cheek gun is missing (it seems it was not there originally). Thus the 180 firing arc in the front is strange...
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
actually nose guns werent standard on the f so you see alot of variation with field mods (including 1 fort where they tried {unsuccessfully} to mount a 20mm). the belle, at least for her last mission, had 2 nose guns mounted on separate gimbals.
i think it stands for an amalgamation of all the forward firing arcs and represents that you could only bring any one of the guns to bear on a target because of their placement.
Looking at the flight stand I see the confusion. Does anyone have the base card? And do you have to move a crew member from position to position in the nose? Seeing how they would only have the nose gunner and the bombardier in the nose during combat, if memory serves me right.
Thomas
ive got the card for my 2, but i forgot to check it today. i wouldnt think itd require moving the crew around due to the cramped nature of the nose. were talking maybe 2 feet or less between guns. in unmodified f models the navigator manned one cheek gun whilst the bombardier manned the other. whom manned which depended which cheek window was staggered closer to which crewmember. in f models field modded with a nose gun or nose guns the bombardier manned the nose gun or guns and the navigator manned the cheek guns. id imagine the 2 worked out some coordination between them so as to avoid elbowing each other when going to man a gun. with only the 2 crewmen and the way the belles nose guns were mounted on separate gimbals i highly doubt they couldve been fired at the same target with any degree of accuracy. the same would hold true for trying to fire a nose and a cheek gun at the same target. so essentially only one gun could be trained on any one target from the front at any one time, and at most 1 gun could be trained on 2 different targets from the front by both crewmen at one time.
So your saying that two planes in the front firing ark would be shot at each turn?
Thomas
yes
I believe most of these photo`s were taken during the Belles US tour after her return.Loads of pics with guns on both sides - trying to find one where you can see both at the same time is a little harder !
I`ve found this one though which appears to have been taken just after her trans-Atlantic flight home.
Note that there is only one gun on the nose plexiglass mounts.
Clearly it was fairly simple to move the guns between mounts or remove or add them at will and it would appear that during the shooting af the documentary some of the guns were temporarily removed and replaced with film camera`s for `pick-up` shots.
And I`ve also found this newsreel clip which shows the Belle with both one and two guns in the nose at different points!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-RLGoIzJ0A
Last edited by Rabbit 3; 12-07-2014 at 08:37.
I think we need a kind of example/tutorial/drawing how the official mini is to be played with already existing guns as they are: one in the left cheek, one in the nose.
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
I qoute myself.
Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!
just found this pic. dont know if its the belle buts the nose gun configuration is identical.
Like all things researched the WOG Belle has a single center nose gun. The easiest to make and generic F model. There was a variety of nose gun mounts in the F production. You see upper left, and upper right, center and low right a D mount. The Belle had two nose guns, prominent in all photos. This is described as an 8 Th Air Force mount.
The card shows a right hand firing arc on a center gun mount. Here is another problem the Belle also had a gun on each side of the forward fuselage. These are missing on the card.
Rich
I think f lash nailed it. The small front arc is for the right hand forward gun only. Looking at the fit you would be unable to train the gun to the left due to th gun hiring the inside perspex. The larger should be split in the middle and cover e 're the left and right cheek guns. IMHO.
See you on the Dark Side......
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