Richtofen's Albatros DIII

[SgtRock57]

Getting ready to repaint. Going to do Richtofen's Red DIII. Sky blue underbelly and underwings, or Red?. Thanks, rookie painter

[gully_raker]

Getting ready to repaint. Going to do Richtofen's Red DIII. Sky blue underbelly and underwings, or Red?. Thanks, rookie painter

Whilst MvR flew a number of Red Albatross there is a colour profile in Osprey's Aviation Elite Unit series JG1 "Richtofens Circus" by Greg Van Wyngarden which shows an all Red D.III with sky blue undersurfaces. This aircraft has the German cross insignia overpainted on both fuselage & tail so they are barely visible. This aircraft was at Roucourt in April 1917.

There is also a profile of his Albatros D.V S/No 1177/17 which is all Red including undersurfaces flown from Marckebeeke in June 1917.
The national insignia is again overpainted.

Hope this helps!

[Teaticket]

This is the totally red one. I have an image with the sky blue underwings I found on the web but I won't post it as it has a copyright watermark on it. Search the web, you'll find it.

[Jager]

This is the totally red one. I have an image with the sky blue underwings I found on the web but I won't post it as it has a copyright watermark on it. Search the web, you'll find it.

You could post the link without violating any copyright.
Karl

[Teaticket]

I didn't think of that Karl, thanks. Here it is.
http://www.aviationgraphic.com/airpl...nne-bh-35.html

[Timmo UK]

As mentioned above MvR flew several DIII but I don't believe any of them had red underwing surfaces. Another common illustration I've seen of an MvR DIII has blue undersurfaces, all red f/l and tail with all national markings overpainted in thin paint. Upper wing is standard three colour. This is the scheme that F-Toys did.

[Naharaht]

F-toys produced a 1/144 model of Manfred von Richthofen's Albatros D.III.

['Warspite']

At various times I have seen scraps of fabric which soldiers took as souvenirs from MvR's shot-down Dr1. Interestingly the paint appeared a tad more orange than I had expected (but that could be age) but the scraps taken near the wing edge also showed traces of sky blue from the underside. It would appear that his last machine certainly had sky blue undersides.

[gully_raker]

At various times I have seen scraps of fabric which soldiers took as souvenirs from MvR's shot-down Dr1. Interestingly the paint appeared a tad more orange than I had expected (but that could be age) but the scraps taken near the wing edge also showed traces of sky blue from the underside. It would appear that his last machine certainly had sky blue undersides.

G'day Barry!
I think you will find that the blue was from before the Aircraft was overpainted all Red in the field. All known descriptions of the aircraft he was killed in refer to an "all Red" Triplane. This is how it is displayed in Omaka Museum diorama owned by Sir Peter Jackson & he is a great stickler for historical accuracy.

MvR diorama.jpg Views: 1594 Size: 119.0 KB" style="float: CONFIG" />

[Timmo UK]

Recently I read a description of 425 that suggests the earlier national markings hadn't been finished on the undersides of the wings which I'd like to get a bit more information about. Over the years there have been lots of fake bits of MvR triplane fabric appear.

There is a famous and widely published photograph of 425/17 taken in March 1918 which now leaves me in some doubt that the aircraft was red overall including the undersides of the wings. It's a very confusing image to look at due to the light and poor quality reproduction. At first glace it looks to me as if the undersides of the lower two wings were red but not the underside of the top wing! Or rather it is clear to me that the undersides of the lower two wings are red but not the underside of the top wing! However, I think it's widely accepted that 425/17 was red overall. 477/17, one of his reserve planes definitely had light turquoise/blue undersides. Both these images are published by Osprey in their Fokker Aces book so they are easy enough to get sight of.

['Warspite']

G'day Barry!
I think you will find that the blue was from before the Aircraft was overpainted all Red in the field. All known descriptions of the aircraft he was killed in refer to an "all Red" Triplane. This is how it is displayed in Omaka Museum diorama owned by Sir Peter Jackson & he is a great stickler for historical accuracy.

MvR diorama.jpg Views: 1594 Size: 119.0 KB" style="float: CONFIG" />

It was some years ago that I saw the scraps (at the IWM) but the caption notes did say that the blue came from the wing edge. They were extensive and the red came to a sharp edge/end. There was no overflow.

'All red' can mean many things to many people. All red can mean simply when viewed from above or the sides.

I would point out that in the photo (above) you cannot see the undersides.

[Timmo UK]

I would point out that in the photo (above) you cannot see the undersides.

Agreed - not entirely but when you look at images of any DR1 with blue undersides you can see the demarkation between upper and lower surface colours along the leading edge of the wing. I wouldn't be swayed either way by how this museum chooses to display MvR's late scheme 425/17 I'd be far more interested in photographic evidence. I think there must be more images taken of the troops stripping the plane that could tell us. So far I've only seen two pictures and both are tantalisingly obtuse when it comes to the question of red under surfaces or not.

Finally the picture of 425/17 in the Osprey book appears to show a good quality finish so it's possible the plane was painted for MvR at Fokker and not in the field as was the case later with Goring's immaculate white DVII.

[gully_raker]

*******Snipped********

Finally the picture of 425/17 in the Osprey book appears to show a good quality finish so it's possible the plane was painted for MvR at Fokker and not in the field as was the case later with Goring's immaculate white DVII.

Yes I agree! I remembered after posting that image that I read somewhere (too many books re MvR!) that Anthony Fokker did build one especially for MvR that was painted overall Red at the factory.

['Warspite']

I am now recanting my previous statement. I found this on Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/macspud/15774670568/

A souvenir scrap from the MvR triplane which does indeed show red over sky-blue. While not conclusive it does suggest this was probably from the underside and does tend to refute my earlier statement on the subject.

Barry

[Timmo UK]

Very interesting if it's genuine. I seem to recall Dan San writing that 425/17 didn't have blue under the red and that the plane had been overall painted in red by Fokker. I'll have to go back through some Aerodrome threads and see if my memory is right and what he actually did say about 425/17.

['Warspite']

Very interesting if it's genuine. I seem to recall Dan San writing that 425/17 didn't have blue under the red and that the plane had been overall painted in red by Fokker. I'll have to go back through some Aerodrome threads and see if my memory is right and what he actually did say about 425/17.

I did wonder if this was an example where the Dr1 had a green over blue upper surfaces scheme, which had then been repainted red but I can see no traces of green anywhere. The blue seems to vary where the red has flaked off. In those areas it appears a little darker. I assume the lines are from where the original was folded up and put in the soldier's pocket and rubbed or flaked.

[rote Flügel]

This is the totally red one. I have an image with the sky blue underwings I found on the web but I won't post it as it has a copyright watermark on it. Search the web, you'll find it.

Is there a top down view of this. I need to do a repaint for a friend and his son love the Baron, this one would be perfect.

Also the black bit at the back is why I wonder about a top down view..

[Teaticket]

Is there a top down view of this. I need to do a repaint for a friend and his son love the Baron, this one would be perfect.

Also the black bit at the back is why I wonder about a top down view..

Unfortunately this was the only plate I have seen of this plane. Looking at the edges of the upper wing there is no evidence of camoflauge, just red. Usually they have evidence of lozenges but none here, so I'd go red wing tops.

[FarEast]

The whole aircraft was red, this is from pilot accounts of those that flew against him.

Arthur Stanley Gould Lee describes his Albatros in the book "No Parachutes" (which is a book made up from his and other pilots in the 46th flight logs and letters home) as a completely Red aircraft.

[Timmo UK]

I would be very wary of taking any reference made during combat at face value so much so that I'd pretty much discount it for modelling purposes. You only have to read how various aircraft were described to realise that air-to-air visual recognition during combat is vague at best and entirely dependant on the relationship of the aircraft to each other and where the sun is. Reports may well state all red but in reality that might only mean the fuselage or include the upper surfaces etc. We just don't know.

For the MvR DIII I'd consider it to be thin red paint applied over factory finish. I think the version F-Toys did is very plausible with the factory three colour camo upper wing surfaces. This is the scheme that Greg VanWyngarden details in Richthofen's Circus (Osprey). The first indication, with photographic reference to support the notion, for an all red aircraft seems to be the DVa he flew in June 1917. (They didn't use lozenge fabric on the earlier built DIIIs.)

[FarEast]

Tim, I would put those accounts above any other as they were actually there, not only that but the reports are back up numerously by other eye witnesses.

But at the end of the day it all comes down to our own preferred sources.

[Timmo UK]

I'd have to disagree with you there. I'd only go with the idea of all red if there was a photograph to back up the eyewitness account, preferably from somebody who saw the aircraft on the ground. For example, the Jasta 11 Adjutant stated very clearly in an interview after WW2 that MvR NEVER EVER flew an all red plane and he probably saw MvR's planes every single day of his life for a couple of years, static close up! Now which source is right? Either? Neither? Look how many guys were fighting Voss in his last battle and look how they describe the plane, it varies from silvery blue to brown and yellow…

Then I guess there is selective memory and dependant on when the memoir was written or if it's taken from combat reports. Then again, if they only saw the plane from above… etc etc and so it goes on without any real conclusive proof.

The reality is that we just don't know for certain and based on what my father (flew in Royal Navy) has told me "everything changes when somebody starts shooting back at you". Eyewitness accounts are useful but clearly fallible – orthochromatic WW1 photographs can be equally difficult to interpret.

The consensus of opinion currently is for MvR's DIII to have all red fuselage and tail, three colour camo to wings and pale blue undersides. However, he flew at least one other DIII and that one might have been all red, again we don't know for certain.

[Nicola Zee]

I am now recanting my previous statement. I found this on Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/macspud/15774670568/

A souvenir scrap from the MvR triplane which does indeed show red over sky-blue. While not conclusive it does suggest this was probably from the underside and does tend to refute my earlier statement on the subject.

Barry

I don't know if you're interested but there's a souvenir scrap from MvR's triplane on display as part of a temporary display in the RAF Hendon museum. The paint does look red over sky-blue. I've no idea, though, what part of the plane it came from.

[Timmo UK]

The DRI 425/17 that he was shot down in was red overall, or at least I believe it was. I've not read much about this for ages but I seem to recall some very interesting discourse on the subject from the late Dan San who had been able to inspect some of the fabric.

All MvR's planes, were painted differently, with no two the same so although he probably flew an all red triplane (425/17) in spite of Bodenschatz's claim to the contrary, I personally don't believe his Albatros DIII was completely red. Just my opinion though based on what I've read published by those who have dedicated themselves to researching the period. Certainly VanWyngarden is of the view that the first MvR plane to have been painted all red, including the undersides, was one of his Albatros DVa. Perhaps interestingly the other day I read a piece that suggested when 425/17 was shot down the older style crosses on the undersides of the lower wing hadn't been completely converted to the straight sided pattern.

[FarEast]

But Tim, this i the Catch 22 that restorers are in as even photographic evidence is very hard to work on as discerning colour from black and white images is an art not a science. A classic example is that of the colouring of Lozenge on Central Power aircraft only until recently when a roll of fabric was found that they realized that have they been getting it wrong, now they are arguing over its true colour before fade.

As for pilot accounts read the books No Parachute and Open Cockpit, you'll soon come to realise you image of aircombat in WWI is very wrong and more often than not aircraft would circle each other with one aircraft darting out of formation to challenge others..... MvR did this on many occasions and it is where the author gives a very vivid description of MvR red Albatros whic again is then backed up by other pilots of the 46th.

[Timmo UK]

I agree that photographs are very tricky however on page 44 of VanWyngarden's Richthofen's Circus (pub Windsock) is a good enough picture of MvR DIII and it quite clearly shows three colour camo on the upper wing surfaces to which he captions that there might be very, very thin red paint over but even with this relatively poor quality reproduction in front of me as I write I can tell that it is three distinct colours. As I mentioned before I'm not saying he didn't fly an all red DIII at some point and that aircraft might be the one recorded by the pilots of 46th squadron but I know for certain that he flew one that was either camo or very thinly overpainted camo. That is the view shared by most, if not all of the most respected historians who are very well aware of all the angles on this including reading the original combat reports.

Can you quote me the exact wording from their combat reports of that day not recollection or memoirs, I know I have read the book but I also know I've confused it with Sagittarius Rising. Out of interest can you give the date of this combat.

From H. J Sparkes Bristol F2B gunner shot down by Richthofen… 'I was just getting into position to try my luck with the all red machine which I presume was Richthofen's, but the Baron got me before I got him…'

I've read lots of these sorts of quotes but what does 'all red' really mean and that's when I think the photographs are important and even more so when backed by the research of those professional historians who were able to interview some of the survivors and often able to study much higher quality photographs than the books are able to publish. Are you saying they are all wrong in the findings that they have widely published?

While I agree that the speed WW1 plane flew at is relatively slow, they were still killing machines. I bet if asked to recall the exact details of the car that nearly ran into somebody, even though they saw it very close and at relatively low speed (compared to an aircraft) their exact recollection will be coloured by the experience. As I say look at the combat reports that relate to the Voss fight – the pilots all saw the same Dr1 but they all describe it so differently, how so? I have my own views on that but what I'm saying is that I don't doubt for one minute what they think they saw but I'd be much more interested to read the exact wording of their combat reports before drawing any conclusion. And that conclusion may be to agree with you that they may well have been flying against MvR in one of the other possible two DIIIs he is thought to have flown or that the camo wing version was later painted red all over, both are very plausible. So far though I've only seen the photograph not the combat reports so I'm keeping an open mind but tending to side with those who have spent decades researching this stuff.

[FarEast]

No I'm not saying they are wrong at all and it brings me back to a post I made a few days back regarding the amount of aircraft JG-1 had at their disposal and the amount of sorties they were flying in one day, day in day out and that pilots may have met MvR without know it, or met another pilot thinking they were MvR.

Yes photographs are also very important, but even though some of them are very clear the historians will always revert to the pilot accounts to clarify their findings and they have admitted that even some of the most clearest photos can be deceptive.

In regards to the pilots reactions or recollections, these pilots that went on to write about MvR did so because they survived the war, they were killers themselves and cool under pressure, they talk about waving to enemy pilots while inverted mid dog fight (Arthur Lee = No Parachute) and how he describes in great detail what the pilot is wearing and how he is sporting the same styled mustache.

Yes the top speeds of these aircraft were very low, in a dog fight slower still.

At the end of the day there is no definitive answer and its one of the things I love about the era - as a scale modeler I am for perfection but as other professionals that build for museums say...."it might not be 100% historically accurate"

['Warspite']

I don't know if you're interested but there's a souvenir scrap from MvR's triplane on display as part of a temporary display in the RAF Hendon museum. The paint does look red over sky-blue. I've no idea, though, what part of the plane it came from.

Errr….. if you follow my picture link you will find it IS the Hendon piece of MvR fabric

Link repeated here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/macspud/15774670568/

[BlackSpy]

One of the great regrets of Shultz work on the Red Baron is that we never get a very good view of the plane at all. Snoopy's recognition of his opponent is made with confidence, but on what basis we don't - and probably can never - know.

*Edit* having just typed that, I came across this

That's from above, obviously, and no great discussion about colouring there. Sadly, no photos of the plane from below.

[gully_raker]

Fascinating! Never seen that game ever!

[gully_raker]

G'day All!
Here is a chart prepared by noted Aero Historian Dr Jim Miller showing all aircraft he has been able to trace being flown by MvR.
Hopefully my scan will be better than the image I had previously posted in another thread on MvR.

MvR Aircraft poster.jpg Views: 620 Size: 126.4 KB" style="float: CONFIG" />

[FarEast]

I never knew he flew a Roland! Many thanks for the share!!!!

['Warspite']

I never knew he flew a Roland! Many thanks for the share!!!!

Errrrr… if you check out the Roland C-II supplied in both the original Wings of War game and recently re-issued by Wings of Glory, the all-blue C-II with no front gun, you will see that it is MvR's personal machine. He flew as pilot in a machine which had only a rear-gun.

[FarEast]

Errrrr… if you check out the Roland C-II supplied in both the original Wings of War game and recently re-issued by Wings of Glory, the all-blue C-II with no front gun, you will see that it is MvR's personal machine. He flew as pilot in a machine which had only a rear-gun.

Errrr having only just got in to the game in June this year, there are let us say a few miniatures missing from my collection.

[Timmo UK]

Errrr having only just got in to the game in June this year, there are let us say a few miniatures missing from my collection.

Richthofen began his flying career as an observer on the Eastern Front. You ought to read his book – brief but interesting.

[fast.git]

Although this doesn't answer any of the questions posed about the presence of blue, it is somewhat in line with elements of this conversation... I stumbled upon an image of what is (allegedly) a section of wing strut from the Dr1 MvR was flying when he was killed:

http://ww1.canada.com/faces-of-war/the-red-baron-plane

It is displayed in the Royal Alberta Museum and came out of the collection of Wilfrid Reid “Wop” May, the pilot MvR was pursuing when he fell.