Ares Games
Results 1 to 27 of 27

Thread: MvR planes in Wings of Glory

  1. #1


    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Tim
    Location
    East Anglia
    Sorties Flown
    510
    Join Date
    Aug 2011

    Default MvR planes in Wings of Glory

    Copied over from another thread....


    Quote Originally Posted by greenalfonzo View Post
    I would really go for a new 'starter' 4 plane set with all new paint schemes (There are even a couple MVR Dr.I schemes not yet produced!). Also I would be in for the duel sets if they went with unique schemes. I know a lot are opposed to 'limited' paint schemes, but virtually all paint schemes, and consumer products generally, are limited production to some extent. Everything stops being made sometime, so best take advantage of the situation by putting out more variety to hook collectors and garner those extra sales. Anything that helps keep planes 'in print' is good for the game.

    Agree – I'd go with a new four plane box set. As you write all the planes are essentially limited editions (especially the SE5s!) and I think ARES could tap into the hardcore collectors market once they have the option to release individual planes.

    MvR flew the Fokker F1 and Dr1 Triplane in at least eight different paint schemes that we know of so I can't see ARES running out of options! I think they were all different airframes except for 425/17 that carried two slightly different schemes – before and after the national markings got changed. The airframes were 102/17, 127/17, 141/17, 152/17, 161/17, 477/17 and 425/17.

    He was shot down in 425/17.

    ARES Have made 161/17 in the duel pack.

    The original and reprinted ARES model sits somewhere between 141/17 and 425/17 but actually isn't either. However, I think recent research is suggesting that there was another airframe that was a MvR plane which does match this ARES scheme, however, I can't recall the airframe number and think this is an Alex Imrie theory based on an unidentified photograph that was previously thought to be a poor image of F1 102/17.

  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmo UK View Post
    ARES Have made 161/17 in the duel pack.
    If memory serves the mini's red/green camo was also worn by 152/17--not to challenge you, but would you mind citing a source that Ares intended it as 161? (Some of the spreadsheets I'm building for this game track individual tailnumbers as a form of ID, so if this checks out I need to amend the RDS/DP DR.I entries with both possible numbers instead of just 152.)

  3. #3


    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Tim
    Location
    East Anglia
    Sorties Flown
    510
    Join Date
    Aug 2011

    Default

    I can't give the source ARES used – you'd have to ask them that.

    IIRC 161 and 152 have different amounts of red on the tail area. On 161 the red runs up to nearly the rear of the cockpit on the top surface. Again IIRC on 152 it doesn't extend as far. I'll dig out some stuff to try to confirm that above.

    I take anything that ARES do with a pinch of salt as they have been know to make some quite basic mistakes with colour schemes that are well known and well documented, the Voss DIII being a good example.

  4. #4

    Default

    Yeah, Tim, Rickenbacker Lime Green is another textbook example of that... why the hell they couldn't have corrected it when they DID have the correct green on another mini shall forever remain Beyond Me.

  5. #5


    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Tim
    Location
    East Anglia
    Sorties Flown
    510
    Join Date
    Aug 2011

    Default

    Ah the SPAD XIII were a total mess up. I'll never understand why they get some spot on and some so wrong.

    The Klien PfalzDIII they got wrong and so the list goes on.

    I've been looking at images of 127/17, 152/17 and 161/17 – hard to tell what's right but it would seem that they increasingly get more red. It's not clear if they were repainted during the time he used them or what happened to them afterwards. Why so many? My view is that only 425/17 was all red including the wing undersides but the rudder was white.

  6. #6

    Default

    MvR: World's First Airplane Collector? LOL

    The other question is, how many did he have at any one time? We know a prime and at least one alternate... The F.I got crunched when loaned to another pilot while he was out with the head injury, I know another was handed down to Stappenhurst. Part of me suspects, with some of the quality control issues from the factory, he may have been designating himself squadron test-pilot and handing the birds off to other pilots as he deemed the A/C "fit for duty"... we can only guess what was going on in his head, and may never really know... there's only so much help Behavioral Analysis (yes, I use that dirty word "Profiling", so Get Over It LOL) can offer with the fragmentary clues available.

  7. #7


    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Tim
    Location
    East Anglia
    Sorties Flown
    510
    Join Date
    Aug 2011

    Default

    Another source states that he flew 11 different triplanes…

    I suspect your right that he had two at any one time and the others went to other pilots. Given that other Jasta would have benefitted from the DR it seems old to give one pilot 7 examples. I believe 425/17 was the only all red one with red undersurfaces and from what I've read he liked this one for low level duties when it stood a good chance of being seen from the ground.

  8. #8

    Default

    Well, two or more... but we know at least two. Also, when we look at WWI attrition rates... I'd be surprised if most squadrons didn't prang at least one a day, and would expect higher numbers. If my recollection is correct Germany in particular seems to have had a propensity for maintaining way more planes available than aircrew to fly 'em...

    The other thing is, the Dreidecker was an "Experts ONLY" toy--it would just as readily kill you as the enemy, so you really had to be skilled to stay ahead of the beast and wring the best out of it. Being given a Dreidecker, at least while they were front-line, meant you were deemed Experten, one of the Kaiser's elite, and even getting one hand-me-down like Udet (Kirschstein's, only change being Udet painting his girlfriend's name on the side) did was a Very Big Deal.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    The other thing is, the Dreidecker was an "Experts ONLY" toy Being given a Dreidecker, at least while they were front-line, meant you were deemed Experten, one of the Kaiser's elite, and even getting one hand-me-down like Udet (Kirschstein's, only change being Udet painting his girlfriend's name on the side) did was a Very Big Deal.
    I'm not sure that's true - when entire Jastas were equipped with Dr1s (Jasta 12, Jasta 19) they had a few Aces, but most of their pilots were not Experten by any means (though some became so using the Dr1's manoeuvrability).

  10. #10

    Default

    Conceded, once they had enough numbers to go relatively "mainline" - it seemed like they had a slow trickle-out, then a brief time in the sun and then swiftly demoted to training duty. Surprisingly high visibility, given that there were only 320 of 'em built...

  11. #11

    Exclamation

    This might help the discussion on MvR's Triplanes.
    The chart is by highly respected author & historian Jim Miller.

    Name:  MvRs Aircraft.jpg
Views: 1589
Size:  73.4 KB

  12. #12

    Default

    Wow Barry, where did you get that chart?

  13. #13

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles downunder View Post
    Wow Barry, where did you get that chart?
    Jim Miller kindly emailed it to me via The Aerodrome Historical Forum.

  14. #14

    Default

    Great but... could it be posted a bit larger? Thanks!

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Great but... could it be posted a bit larger? Thanks!
    Yes, please. This is great but I tried copying it to my PC and it's still too fuzzy to see properly.

  16. #16

    Default

    Could it be put into a file, enlarged so the detail is not compromised once enlarged on our own pc's, please?
    See you on the Dark Side......

  17. #17


    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Tim
    Location
    East Anglia
    Sorties Flown
    510
    Join Date
    Aug 2011

    Default

    I've seen another similar which shows a sequence of 127/17, 152/17 and 161/17 all with different amounts of red on the tail area. 127 having just the horizontal tail surfaces red, 152/17 the tail area red in the same proportions as the yellow on Lothar's DR1 and 161 taking the red up the deck to the rear of the cockpit. However, I've also seen 127/17 and 152/17 depicted in this form as well. It's hard to know, without having better reference to hand, as to which is precisely right. Even then the planes were repainted over time as the Osprey Dr1 book details.

    The squadron adjunct to Jasta 11 stated in a interview that MvR NEVER flew an all red triplane but the photographic evidence of 425/17 suggests that it was all red and quite likely to have been factory painted for him.

    It would be great if we could compile what we think is a definitive list, even if that includes options. There are a couple of triplane books I'd love to buy but with the endless desire for yet more models I can't go buying books as well!

  18. #18

    Default

    Another vote for a larger copy of that cool chart. Big enough to read the text. Looks like Jim Miller did some nice work there.

  19. #19

    Default

    A larger version of this chart would be greatly appreciated.

  20. #20


    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Tim
    Location
    East Anglia
    Sorties Flown
    510
    Join Date
    Aug 2011

    Default

    This reference for 1/32 decal sheets and the notes that briefly explain the decals and colour schemes might be of interest to some:

    http://decals.kitreview.com/decals/c...reviewrb_1.htm

  21. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    A larger version of this chart would be greatly appreciated.
    Yes please!

  22. #22

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Great but... could it be posted a bit larger? Thanks!
    Sorry Andrea but that is the only size I have.

    Might I suggest a PM to Jim on the Aerodrome Historical site or a general inquiry in the Aircraft section.

    I will have a lash at enlarging in my Paint Programme but I think it will distort the images.

  23. #23

    Unhappy

    Sorry Chaps!
    I tried to enlarge but it distorted too much.
    I will try to find an original over on the Aerodrome site but its quite a few years ago so might take some time!

  24. #24


    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Tim
    Location
    East Anglia
    Sorties Flown
    510
    Join Date
    Aug 2011

    Default

    This is worth reading as it demonstrates how a colour scheme was never fixed and evolved over time.

    http://www.fineartofdecals.com/goodi...thofens-dr-is/


    To bring this back in line with the theme of MvR planes in WoG the plane that would be really useful and that I hope they do in the reprint is MvR's Albatros DIII. With some really simple repainting of the nose and elevator several more Jasta 11 planes can be represented and with a little bit more work, but still no decals the green striped machine of Simon, that was captured, could be added. Fingers crossed that they offer us this next time around.
    Last edited by Timmo UK; 11-23-2014 at 11:11.

  25. #25


    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Tim
    Location
    East Anglia
    Sorties Flown
    510
    Join Date
    Aug 2011

    Default

    I found the image I was looking for this confirms that: the all red Triplane that WoW/WOG sell is marked as 425/17 in the very small script is nothing like 425/17 was ever recorded to have looked like. However, the model is close to 152/17 that Alex Imrie (author of Fokker Triplane book and well respected WW1 historian) believes was photographed having been painted red all over. The plane is shown with the late War crosses so must be late March, or April 1918. The text doesn't tell us when 152/17 was painted red overall so it's not clear if it ever appeared exactly like the ARES model with the early style crosses on white fields with the rest of the plane all red.

    This picture can be found on page 58 of: Windsock Fabric Special No1 Von Richthofen's Flying Circus. Greg VanWyngarden. Pub 1995 Albatros Publications Ltd and I'm sure it appears elsewhere as well.
    Last edited by Timmo UK; 12-12-2014 at 11:18.

  26. #26

    Default

    I believe this chart can be found in "Manfred von Richthofen - Ace Profiles #3" by James Miller.
    I don't know where my copy is, as most of my reference is boxed up, but not yet cataloged
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  27. #27

    Default

    Guys I might be able to shed some light on why he apparently flew so many aircraft through the eyes of an RFC pilot.

    Many of these aircraft were coming about during the turn of tides of air superiority on the Western Front, The Albatros had been very successful and finally the Triplane and Camels were making their way to the RFC and changing the balance of air power in their favor.

    Now at this time the RFC and other Aviation units were running 4-5 sorties a day with some old timers volunteering for more to boost numbers, Manfred von Richthofen and the combined Jasta's were also doing the same.

    So my assumptions are these.

    The many paint schemes are due to field repairs, aircraft getting turned around very quickly and paint being slapped on as quickly as possible, thus resulting in similar but also unique designs.

    MvR being able to commandeer any aircraft as needed to fill his role of meeting the enemy were it was needed the most and probably would fly that aircraft until his own were available or he would keep the one he was flying and the old one rotated back in to service with the Jasta it was taken from.

    MvR was given his first DR.1 during the build up for the 3rd Battle of Ypres (Sept. 1917) and as the RFC and RNAS had really stepped up aerial operations to smother the sky I'm guessing machines were made available for all pilots of the J.G 1 whoom required them to meet and engage the increased aerial activity.



Similar Missions

  1. Planes On A Train: Wings of Glory + Amtrak = Winning
    By surfimp in forum WGF: General Discussions
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 08-04-2014, 14:54
  2. WGF & WGS: Mixing Wings of Glory coastal mat with the Sails of Glory mat.
    By Oberst Hajj in forum Site News and Announcements
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 09-27-2013, 09:27
  3. Wings of Glory Series II (IV) - Planes - the poll
    By Marechallannes in forum WGS: General Discussions
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 06-07-2012, 06:33
  4. TORPEDO STRIKE - possible Expansion for Wings of Glory: Planes
    By Marechallannes in forum WGS: General Discussions
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 05-06-2012, 08:55
  5. Wings of Glory Series II (IV) - Planes?
    By Marechallannes in forum WGS: General Discussions
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 03-20-2012, 00:49

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •