Ares Games
Page 1 of 7 1234567 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 311

Thread: The Big thread of extra Maneuver Decks

  1. #1

    LOOP
    Guest


    Default The Big thread of extra Maneuver Decks

    There is a constant demand for movment-decks here in this forum. Do you think that there are any possibility that Ares will issue them as a separete item?
    I know that such a release would be welcome, both to replace wornout decks and to acompany ACs from say, Shapeways.
    If you buy a Pup, a Pfalz XII or a Dolphin, you can get the right flightstand and it would be very welcome to get the "right" deck too.

    Just a thought that turned up in my head when you mentioned reprints....
    /P-G

  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    Do you think that there are any possibility that Ares will issue them as a separate item?
    /P-G
    Much as it distresses me to say this,the short answer to this is no Per.
    We have lobbied for this many times since Ares took over, and the answer has always been that it is not a part of their marketing strategy to release anything except the boxed sets.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Much as it distresses me to say this,the short answer to this is no Per.
    We have lobbied for this many times since Ares took over, and the answer has always been that it is not a part of their marketing strategy to release anything except the boxed sets.
    Rob.
    Yes, if they sell you just the cards, then you won't buy more planes.

    And they really want you to buy more planes.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    I know that such a release would be welcome, both to replace wornout decks and to acompany ACs from say, Shapeways.
    That is exactly why they will not release decks by them selves.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenalfonzo View Post
    Yes, if they sell you just the cards, then you won't buy more planes.

    And they really want you to buy more planes.
    We all should want to buy more planes from them... it is what keeps them in business

  5. #5

    LOOP
    Guest


    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Much as it distresses me to say this,the short answer to this is no Per.
    We have lobbied for this many times since Ares took over, and the answer has always been that it is not a part of their marketing strategy to release anything except the boxed sets.
    Rob.
    I probably would have done the same if I owned Ares. Everything is business. Sad but very understandable.
    I really hadn't expected a different answer but if you don't ask.......

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    That is exactly why they will not release decks by them selves.
    However, if the decks are for aircraft they have no plans for ever releasing, as they're never going to be commercially viable, then this argument doesn't hold water. Having more kinds of aircraft in the game increases sales of the ARES ones, especially since the non-ARES ones will be more expensive.

    For customers to whom exact kind of plane doesn't matter - they'll choose ARES. They're cheaper, and require no painting or preparation.

    For those who it matters to, the more different kinds of aircraft they have available as opponents, the more likely they are to buy matching types. If a BE2 is available, ARES Fokker E.III sales will increase.

    If the production of card sets is licensed, they don't even have to put any of their own money in it. A Kickstarter would be perfect. I'm sure there are volunteers here to do artwork, and the OUSC (Stats committee) have done a lot of the work making the stats.

    There's an argument to be made not to release anything ARES is planning on producing in the next 2 years. There's a lesser argument for aircraft not going to be produced in 5 years. But beyond that, their sales would increase, not decrease.

  7. #7

    Default

    The principle argument, I assume, is that most people have only a fixed limit to their disposable income; and Ares would like to capture as much of that as possible.

    I read again and again on this forum that people were drawn to this game by the pretty little planes (I certainly was).
    So it's easy to understand why Ares have made a commitment to driving the game in that direction.

    Having made the investment on pursuing that strategy, I completely understand why they don't want to assist any competition against that by facilitating a game with either other people's miniatures or easily printed aircraft cards (probably producible without breaching copyright).

    I understand what you're saying Zoe, but how many additional aircraft have they sold because each new release is the only opportunity get new aircraft with movement decks; how many have they sold in duplicate for modification because of the additional hassle in trying to support someone else's minis without manoeuvre decks available?


    Perhaps Andrea can tell us, but I'm guess the manoeuvre cards is the clearest part of the game on which to enforce copyright. I'm not surprised they guard that.

  8. #8


    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Tim
    Location
    East Anglia
    Sorties Flown
    510
    Join Date
    Aug 2011

    Default

    I can well understand Ares not breaking the game down into it's component parts, as frustrating as that might be but if somebody was so minded they could create the decks and have them printed. Whilst the background would have to be a different illustration to avoid copyright there's nothing to stop a third party making components for the game available if they were produced in a slightly different style.

    With regards to Ares aiming for greatest sales as any business does I'm not convinced that chasing the more esoteric models at the expense of keeping the mainstream models constantly available is actually doing them any long term favours. The new models keep the die-hards happy and will attract some new players but imagine if you were new to WoG and you buy a couple of planes only to discover that you're possibly years away from being able to buy the most popular models, even though they were once available. This gives the impression that you've missed the golden age of the range as so many desirable models are now OOP. If I were ARES I'd ditch the restrictive notion of releasing in three sets of four and accelerate the mainstream models so they are always on the shelves. I know some who have given up on the game entirely for that reason. Now it looks like they've switched over to the slab wing style I've decided to purely hunt original models or those made to the higher standard, to finish my collection.

  9. #9

    strontiumdog's Avatar
    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Dan
    Location
    Gloucestershire
    Sorties Flown
    73
    Join Date
    Jun 2014

    Default

    And do we really need endless types of decks?

    Its easy for us all to get fixated on the little differences between aircraft but i imagine in terms of game mechanics many aircraft would be adequately served with existing deck types. Im sure it was as much the abilities of the pilot (if not more) as the machine itself that made the difference in many cases.

    Mind you i am biased in that as i do a lot of figure painting for wargaming, pre-painted aircraft are a joy!

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    I probably would have done the same if I owned Ares. Everything is business. Sad but very understandable.
    I really hadn't expected a different answer but if you don't ask.......
    It's a shame that they feel that way. Me personally... I think I've done more to help the game than harm their sales.

    The gods know I've spent WAAAY more money on official planes than I have on Shapeways. I suspect that holds true for all but a few of us.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strontiumdog View Post
    And do we really need endless types of decks?

    Its easy for us all to get fixated on the little differences between aircraft but i imagine in terms of game mechanics many aircraft would be adequately served with existing deck types. Im sure it was as much the abilities of the pilot (if not more) as the machine itself that made the difference in many cases.

    Mind you i am biased in that as i do a lot of figure painting for wargaming, pre-painted aircraft are a joy!
    I would think that there are probably enough decks now to cover most additions to the range of aircraft with the possible exception of large or slow craft or ones with 'special moves'.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by strontiumdog View Post
    And do we really need endless types of decks?

    Its easy for us all to get fixated on the little differences between aircraft but i imagine in terms of game mechanics many aircraft would be adequately served with existing deck types. Im sure it was as much the abilities of the pilot (if not more) as the machine itself that made the difference in many cases.

    Mind you i am biased in that as i do a lot of figure painting for wargaming, pre-painted aircraft are a joy!
    It's not so much the different number of decks Dan, as the fact that you can't get copies of the decks without an aircraft, and many of these aircraft are themselves unobtainable.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  13. #13

    Default

    And what about when your deck that came with an Unobtainium aircraft wears out?

    Were I Ares customer-care, I would at the very least propose an initiative about offering a "trade-in replacement" on damaged decks once a year. I'm positively anal about ensuring that nothing ever happens to MY decks, but not everyone is as paranoid about them as I am and things go missing on convention game-tables...

  14. #14

    Default

    Even the prettiest aircraft miniature without a proper deck is simply useless for the game. Some minis are unobtainable as you wrote. Thus preserving a deck in one form (digital) or another is simply a way to keep the rare minis flying. My two cents.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    And what about when your deck that came with an Unobtainium aircraft wears out?

    Were I Ares customer-care, I would at the very least propose an initiative about offering a "trade-in replacement" on damaged decks once a year. I'm positively anal about ensuring that nothing ever happens to MY decks, but not everyone is as paranoid about them as I am and things go missing on convention game-tables...
    I totally agree DB.
    I tag all my cards with a micro sticker and sleeve them, but the odd ones still go missing at shows now and then.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  16. #16

    Default

    I like my games with as many variables and differences per aircraft as possible (and, indeed, even within that type of aircraft according to which type of engine it was using, and whether it was weighted down by an extra gun), so I'm often disappointed when I here a new type will be furnished with an old deck.

    Also, if you buy the full series, you get extra decks anyway. I know I only open one deck per type, and leave the others in reserve in their wrappers. As someone that buys each of every new paint scheme, I have whole stacks of unused decks for all the various types filling a shoebox. The models get used, but you only need one deck out no matter how many Camels you're flying. Put them in sleeves and they'll last forever. Rather than sell replacement decks, Ares just needs to sell sleeves.

  17. #17

    Default

    Could you explain further Kev how you fly several aircraft on one deck?
    I am intrigued.
    I have a deck for every aircraft I fly.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  18. #18

    LOOP
    Guest


    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greenalfonzo View Post
    you only need one deck out no matter how many Camels you're flying.
    Well if you fly one AC at the time you only need one deck, but if you fly 3? How do you keep your moves hidden?
    Do you write them down?
    I do as you Rob. Every AC has its own deck. And if you fly 3 Camels that means 3 deck..

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    I do as you Rob. Every AC has its own deck. And if you fly 3 Camels that means 3 deck..
    Likewise.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Could you explain further Kev how you fly several aircraft on one deck?
    I am intrigued.
    I have a deck for every aircraft I fly.
    Rob.
    Very easy.... each card has a number remember.
    This is the method I used when first getting in to the Valom/Shapeways scene.
    So first aircraft you chose your cards and write the number on a pad in the aircraft console, then do the same for all other aircraft that share the same deck. Then when you come to move them, all you do is use the appropriate card then cross out the movement, move on to the next plane

  21. #21

    Default

    That doesn't feel very multiplayer friendly.

  22. #22

    LOOP
    Guest


    Default

    Not not so easy to replan your moves if nessesary...

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Could you explain further Kev how you fly several aircraft on one deck?
    I am intrigued.
    I have a deck for every aircraft I fly.
    Rob.
    I do that too. If you have a good memory is very easy. Plan your cards. If a plane will do the same maneuver other plane will, just remember who's going to make that especial maneuver. You can write on a paper too, which is more easy.
    But I think that having a deck for each aircraft is easier, of course, althought not necessary.
    Thanks


    Nick

  24. #24

    Default

    Ouch! I have a headache every time when try to fly more than one aircraft. Playing with just one deck and several planes would even increase the pain of gaming. I do admire your brain abilities, chaps
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  25. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Ouch! I have a headache every time when try to fly more than one aircraft. Playing with just one deck and several planes would even increase the pain of gaming. I do admire your brain abilities, chaps
    You are not wrong Andrzej. This "trick" can only be used with maximum 4 planes or so.

  26. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    For those who it matters to, the more different kinds of aircraft they have available as opponents, the more likely they are to buy matching types. If a BE2 is available, ARES Fokker E.III sales will increase.
    Possibly, but I'm not 100% convinced of that. I think the mass majority of players would buy the three E.IIIs that are out and then buy three BE2 decks, source the minis else were and call it good. Very few of us players have large groups to play with (needing more than 3-4 planes a side) or attend gaming conventions where a large number of aircraft on the table (or display table) is necessary. So I don't see a large increase in sales for existing miniatures just because decks are made for minis they don't make.

    Can the BE2 deck be made from an already existing deck(s) that we have? My point there is that we can make a lot of unofficial decks by mixing cards from various decks that we do have. Even with that option, I don't see a lot of people buying extra minis to build those extra decks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    If the production of card sets is licensed, they don't even have to put any of their own money in it. A Kickstarter would be perfect. I'm sure there are volunteers here to do artwork, and the OUSC (Stats committee) have done a lot of the work making the stats.
    I personally think licensing the decks out to another company is an even worse idea for Ares. Not only does that give players an avenue to not buy their miniatures, but it ensure that they would see even less return on the decks that are sold. While they might not be out any capital to do this, they are still out resources in the form of man hours maintaining the license, ensuring their brand identity and reputation are upheld, providing the company with the necessary files/artwork needed to make each new deck. It is still considerable work for little return on an option that only undermines your main product line (to whatever degree that might actually be if this all came to pass).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    There's an argument to be made not to release anything ARES is planning on producing in the next 2 years. There's a lesser argument for aircraft not going to be produced in 5 years. But beyond that, their sales would increase, not decrease.
    So say that Ares does not plan to release the BE2 we talked about above in the next 3 Series, but it is on their possible list of planes to do (which I think just about every one would be on said list). They also have 2 or 3 reprints they need to get out. Assuming that we get one Series per year that would put the last new Series out about five years. If in year two they release the BE2's deck (only), how many lost sales do you think they will have lost over the next 4 years if the BE2 ended up being in the 4th Series in this example? Quite a few I'm thinking... at least 90% of the extras people by for repaints.

    Some aircraft might not be viewed as viable production minis now, but as a business you never want to endanger possible future sales no matter how remote they might be at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmo UK View Post

    With regards to Ares aiming for greatest sales as any business does I'm not convinced that chasing the more esoteric models at the expense of keeping the mainstream models constantly available is actually doing them any long term favours. The new models keep the die-hards happy and will attract some new players but imagine if you were new to WoG and you buy a couple of planes only to discover that you're possibly years away from being able to buy the most popular models, even though they were once available.
    Very valid points that I agree with wholeheartedly. Ares is in fact trying to keep the core minis in stock. That was one of the reasons for offering the Duel packs. It allows them to have a second product line featuring the Series 1 (which lets face it, are the iconic planes of WWI) minis. I don't know of a single company that is able to keep every single product that they make in stock 100% of the time.

    The other side of that coin is that retail stores are not able to stock everyone of Ares minis at the same time either. Here in the US, Flames of War is probably the most popular tabletop wargame out there. It's a huge game for my FLGS and they would need to dedicate as much floor/wall space that they currently have for FoW to shelve all the Wings minis. And let's face it, Wings is just not as popular of a game (even if every mini was always in stock and every plane that flew in WWI was available as well).

    Having everything in stock all the time simply is just not possible. But Ares does realize to the need to have the core planes in stock or restocked within a month or so. Unfortunately for us all, that's not always possible either no matter how hard they try.

    Quote Originally Posted by strontiumdog View Post
    And do we really need endless types of decks?

    Its easy for us all to get fixated on the little differences between aircraft but i imagine in terms of game mechanics many aircraft would be adequately served with existing deck types. Im sure it was as much the abilities of the pilot (if not more) as the machine itself that made the difference in many cases.

    Mind you i am biased in that as i do a lot of figure painting for wargaming, pre-painted aircraft are a joy!
    I'd love to see a lot more slight differences between the aircraft personally. I'm also a little disappointed when a deck is reused

    Quote Originally Posted by jbmacek View Post
    It's a shame that they feel that way. Me personally... I think I've done more to help the game than harm their sales.

    The gods know I've spent WAAAY more money on official planes than I have on Shapeways. I suspect that holds true for all but a few of us.
    I'm sure it does hold true... but how would that change if you were able to buy the decks solo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    And what about when your deck that came with an Unobtainium aircraft wears out?

    Were I Ares customer-care, I would at the very least propose an initiative about offering a "trade-in replacement" on damaged decks once a year. I'm positively anal about ensuring that nothing ever happens to MY decks, but not everyone is as paranoid about them as I am and things go missing on convention game-tables...
    This is a valid concern and one I feel rather keenly with all the Con games that I run. I've got a handful of decks that have missing cards that I'd love to be able to replace If you know you have missing cards from a deck that is currently on the market, you should contact Ares and inquire about the missing card or a new deck. I'm pretty sure you would find them helpful.


    As a player, I'd love to see separate decks offered for sale. Back when they were out, I bought quite a few of the D deck boosters so that I could use them with Shapeways Dr.Is. Limitations of time and the lack of quality Shapeway printings derailed that train though. So now I'm sitting on a lot of decks that might never get used besides as replacement decks. And no, I don't want to sell them... someday I might need them for non Ares minis. lol

    I'll wrap this very long post up with a question to all of you. How much would you pay for a single deck if Ares was to sale them? $5, $7, $10 or even $12?

  27. #27

    LOOP
    Guest


    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barkmann View Post
    You are not wrong Andrzej. This "trick" can only be used with maximum 4 planes or so.
    I've been keeping 6 planes in the air in a game but it really slows down the pace and nothing I recomend.
    1 or 2 are best.

  28. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post

    If the production of card sets is licensed, they don't even have to put any of their own money in it. A Kickstarter would be perfect. I'm sure there are volunteers here to do artwork, and the OUSC (Stats committee) have done a lot of the work making the stats.
    The fact of the matter is that a lot of work has already been put in designing manoeuvre decks, and these were available on site but were pulled when Ares threw their dummy out of the pram. A KS could be the answer to production and distribution costs and licensing fees if agreement could be obtained from Ares.
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  29. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    I'll wrap this very long post up with a question to all of you. How much would you pay for a single deck if Ares was to sale them? $5, $7, $10 or even $12?
    Herr Oberst,

    I'll answer with question. If Airplane Pack (airplane itself, pegs, base, card deck, plastic "wrapping", box) costs $10 - 15, how much single deck could be priced?

    I'll sure be willing to pay any reasonable price for single deck, having above (and former booster packs) in mind.

  30. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    Herr Oberst,

    I'll answer with question. If Airplane Pack (airplane itself, pegs, base, card deck, plastic "wrapping", box) costs $10 - 15, how much single deck could be priced?
    This is kind of my point. The old booster packs had about 3 or 4 maneuver decks in them (if the plane cards were converted to maneuver cards). I think they sold for about $10? So a maneuver deck has a rough retail value of about $3 if sold as a separate product. Factor in that most Wings products can be had for about 30% off retail, and we are looking at roughly $2 for a single deck. Not a lot of room for Ares (or anyone else) to make a profit on that.

  31. #31

    Default

    Being new to the game and having bought every different booster pack I could (still missing some) at eye watering prices I can relate to wanting more manoeuver decks.
    Paying Ł10+ just to get another deck because you have to buy a miniature with it seems a bit much if on a very tight budget. Then there is the problem of new decks being poorly designed for people with failing eyesight.
    How much does a deck cost to produce, 50p? so even if a miracle happened, a new deck on its own with tax and because I am in the UK would probably come out at Ł5+.
    I am betting that quite a lot of players have come to the conclusion that printing their own as needed (costing what? 20p) is the only way to go if they are unable to buy the decks.
    I will probably print some for my own use anyway, at least I will be able to see the movement markings easier, the first thing to change is the background design.
    Wish I had seen the game when it first came out as playing catch up is a pain.

  32. #32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OldernGreyer View Post
    Wish I had seen the game when it first came out as playing catch up is a pain.
    I am with you on that.
    I have been introduced into the game less than one year ago and I had to plunder the whole World to find "old" pieces. Still missing the Albatros D.III, the Pfalz and the SE5 ...

    To make things more painful, I have 90+ WWI minis all official, but only 15% of these bought in Italy as Ares doesn't distribute here.

  33. #33

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    And what about when your deck that came with an Unobtainium aircraft wears out?

    Were I Ares customer-care, I would at the very least propose an initiative about offering a "trade-in replacement" on damaged decks once a year. I'm positively anal about ensuring that nothing ever happens to MY decks, but not everyone is as paranoid about them as I am and things go missing on convention game-tables...
    I was at first but then when I ran games at a convention and came home missing several cards I started to make my own. Now I'm not so worried about losing or wearing out cards as they are easy enough to make.

  34. #34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    I've been keeping 6 planes in the air in a game but it really slows down the pace and nothing I recomend.
    1 or 2 are best.
    Uuh. 6 planes?!? Too much for my head. Prefer scanning the deck and printing it, if possible.

  35. #35

    Default

    Just about every show demo/participation I've put on the public ask the main question: Where can I get them and how much?

    They always refer to the Ares models, whilst they like the look of the non-Ares models most want to play with ready painted miniatures. That is the draw. The non Ares models seem to come to us die hards who wish to expand the game into areas that Ares don't produce planes for, yet, or never will. Personally I think Ares are missing a side of the hobby that is crying out for assistance.

    As to cost how much have I paid for the blister packs of maneuver cards and all the variant aircraft cards produced by Nexus? Ł4-8 depending on source.
    I would say Ł5 for 3-4 decks plus some variant cards would be reasonable.

    Neil
    See you on the Dark Side......

  36. #36

    Default

    I totally agree Neil, as I have just paid Ł8.50 for a three deck pack of two J and a K just to get the K deck.
    I worked out that I have spent so much time, photo paper and ink on repro decks over the last few months, that I would willingly have spent the Ł110 with Ares just to save all the fuss and bother. That is just the extra money they would have taken from one person, not counting the Nexus decks that I have managed to get hold of which must add up to another Ł100 or so.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  37. #37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I totally agree Neil, as I have just paid Ł8.50 for a three deck pack of two J and a K just to get the K deck.
    I worked out that I have spent so much time, photo paper and ink on repro decks over the last few months, that I would willingly have spent the Ł110 with Ares just to save all the fuss and bother. That is just the extra money they would have taken from one person, not counting the Nexus decks that I have managed to get hold of which must add up to another Ł100 or so.
    Rob.
    Exactly true. What Neil wrote "a side of the hobby" that the game generates is totally neglected by Ares. They would fill that niche easily providing gamers with dedicated supplies they need in blisters, expansions, cards, decals, special rules sets, detailed maps of terrain of specific air battles (so to say Lancaster poster is a very humble example), miniature terrain, ground targets or whatsoever. There is a whole world of airwarfare to be explored.
    Of course it is their business and it is not me to suggest them what to do, but I am affraid their horizons are somehow narrowed.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  38. #38

    Default

    Yeah, "Missed Opportunities" seems to be a very big Recurring Theme here... I don't know if I'd get an approval to publish here, but there are times when I've thought about asking Roberto what if anything might have changed in WoG and SoG if they'd known at the games' inception under Ares what they know now.

  39. #39

    Default

    I would also like to add that not having all the mini's available all the time is only adding to the problem. The amount of times the public have asked where can they get the Richtofen mini and others not in stock is unbelievable. There is an expanding market out there and the more discerning gamers and newbies are looking to other manufacturers and probably other game systems to fill the void(s).
    See you on the Dark Side......

  40. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    Very valid points that I agree with wholeheartedly. Ares is in fact trying to keep the core minis in stock. That was one of the reasons for offering the Duel packs. It allows them to have a second product line featuring the Series 1 (which lets face it, are the iconic planes of WWI) minis. I don't know of a single company that is able to keep every single product that they make in stock 100% of the time.
    ...
    Having everything in stock all the time simply is just not possible. But Ares does realize to the need to have the core planes in stock or restocked within a month or so. Unfortunately for us all, that's not always possible either no matter how hard they try.
    True today, but...

    A decade or two back, you could have said the same thing about the music industry. It was impossible for any brick & mortar shop -- or any record company -- to keep every album or CD in stock, and you were pretty much limited to what you could find in your local CD/record store or hunt up through sales of used media. Today, it's mostly digital sales, and the questions of inventory and materials are quaint relics of a bygone time. Video stores have mostly disappeared due to streaming and Netflix. The book-printing industry isn't that far behind.

    I think the same thing is going to happen with 3D printing. If you've seen some of the recent announcements, it's clear that we're only a few years away (say, 2-10) when you can buy full-colored, strong, and highly detailed models with a nice finish -- much nicer than what we can get out of Shapeways today. You'll be able to internet-order via Shapeways, or you might phone something in to a local printer shop and drop by to pick it up an hour or two later. (Eventually the printers will make its way into the home directly, but that's further out.)

    When that happens, "stock" of a product becomes an obsolete concept. All of the questions of inventory and shelf space disappear, and it may actually be easier to custom-order a full-color 3D print of (say) an Fokker D.V than it is to buy the cards to go with it! If Ares wants to get ahead of the curve, they should start thinking now how to embrace the 3D printing industry and the changes that are coming.

  41. #41

    Default

    A very interesting prediction Daryl.
    Home replicators, now where have I seen that before.
    It's just a pity that I won't be around to see it in reality.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  42. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    True today, but...

    A decade or two back, you could have said the same thing about the music industry. It was impossible for any brick & mortar shop -- or any record company -- to keep every album or CD in stock, and you were pretty much limited to what you could find in your local CD/record store or hunt up through sales of used media. Today, it's mostly digital sales, and the questions of inventory and materials are quaint relics of a bygone time. Video stores have mostly disappeared due to streaming and Netflix. The book-printing industry isn't that far behind.

    I think the same thing is going to happen with 3D printing. If you've seen some of the recent announcements, it's clear that we're only a few years away (say, 2-10) when you can buy full-colored, strong, and highly detailed models with a nice finish -- much nicer than what we can get out of Shapeways today. You'll be able to internet-order via Shapeways, or you might phone something in to a local printer shop and drop by to pick it up an hour or two later. (Eventually the printers will make its way into the home directly, but that's further out.)

    When that happens, "stock" of a product becomes an obsolete concept. All of the questions of inventory and shelf space disappear, and it may actually be easier to custom-order a full-color 3D print of (say) an Fokker D.V than it is to buy the cards to go with it! If Ares wants to get ahead of the curve, they should start thinking now how to embrace the 3D printing industry and the changes that are coming.
    It may one day come to that... but I not sold on it happening in the next 10 years. About 2.5 years ago I was looking at 3D printers as well... the $100,000 dollar versions. There were only really 2 that could give the resolution that could come close to injection molded plastic. And those could not match the surface finish of it. The material that it printed was also not as strong as plastic... and there was no color option. The other printer I looked at was also in the $100k range. The material was again not as smooth as plastic. It could print something like 40k colors, but the finish was like fine grit sandpaper and kind of fragile. I say they are at least 10 years away from combining those two types of printers and another 5 years from getting a decent material to work with them (for our kinds of needs). And that is still going to be in the $100k range.

    I don't see 3D printers having a real impact on the mass production world. They are a great tool, but not suited for mass production.

  43. #43

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    This is kind of my point. The old booster packs had about 3 or 4 maneuver decks in them (if the plane cards were converted to maneuver cards). I think they sold for about $10? So a maneuver deck has a rough retail value of about $3 if sold as a separate product. Factor in that most Wings products can be had for about 30% off retail, and we are looking at roughly $2 for a single deck. Not a lot of room for Ares (or anyone else) to make a profit on that.
    I guess $2 would bring profit with quite good ratio. Even $3 for single deck is good price both for Ares and community. I believe there is matter of will and/or possibilities, and not the profit itself. A person, at the moment, probably spends similar amount of money per deck at xerox office... And Ares covers not that part of the market, instead of taking that money for the product we all want and need.

  44. #44

    Default

    At the end of the day Ares do not have the budget to maintain stock in at all times, even the big hitting game X-Wing Miniatures has exactly the same problem as not only do they need to allocate budget but they also need to work with the Chinese factories to allocate floor time for running the moulds.

    You will probably find that each release is financed heavily by the previous and if they make enough profit they will channel that in to both releasing older series. The fact that they seem to release new series every 2 or 3 years and re-release older series the same shows that Wings of War/Glory generates very little revenue in the grand scheme of things.

    Also, I think a lot of you don't realise how expensive it is to 'retool' for making miniatures, it's incredibly expensive to make the moulding for both the metal and plastic parts and if something goes wrong or it doesn't meet the standard/requirements the company is looking for it can push the lead time and expenses up (this happened with the Millennium Falcon and they actually had to completely retool for that miniature)

    Now if you start providing ways for your existing client base to source playing materials through other avenues you are going to be cutting in to any profits that are going to help the company release newer models. Let's face it we are an impatient lot and if say there was a deck for the SE5 available as a separate add on we would all probably just buy the pack and go through shapeways to get the miniature.

    Then you have players like me, I buy the miniatures out of necessity, I actually hate the Ares miniatures - I think they are crude and poorly modeled and the painting is dire at the best of times (If you ever strip one down to the bare metal you'll see just how much detail is lost in the painting!) especially when compared to other games such as the X-wing miniatures that are at a much smaller scale and have a much higher level of detail in the molds and painting.

    At the end of the day I would much rather source my miniatures through Valom, Shapeways and other 1/144 scale modelers as I also love painting and building my own, I'm sure there are more like me and this would hit revenue for Ares and contribute to the further demise of the game and Ares ability to continue it.

    It's sad to say that Wings of Glory in both WWI and WWII is a fringe game, those that play it love it passionately, I certainly do, but when you look at it in the grand scheme of things Wings of War is never going to be the huge it we hope it will be.

    You want the Ares to produce more on a quicker time frame...... BUY BUY BUY miniatures don't just buy two or three of a new release - BUY THEM ALL!

    Talk to your LGS and have them put a window display up..... one of the members here did a stella job of making display for his library so volunteer to make a display, and hold regular events at the LGS..... it's how Games Workshop became the monster it is today - they focused on the new recruits - even now GW makes no secret of not giving a damn about veterans of the games they offer (many are now run by Fantasy Flight Games) to them its all about the latest game and capturing as much new blood as they can!

    Note: I worked for GW many many years ago so know about how it works.

  45. #45

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FarEast View Post
    At the end of the day Ares do not have the budget to maintain stock in at all times, even the big hitting game X-Wing Miniatures has exactly the same problem as not only do they need to allocate budget but they also need to work with the Chinese factories to allocate floor time for running the moulds.

    You will probably find that each release is financed heavily by the previous and if they make enough profit they will channel that in to both releasing older series. The fact that they seem to release new series every 2 or 3 years and re-release older series the same shows that Wings of War/Glory generates very little revenue in the grand scheme of things.

    Also, I think a lot of you don't realise how expensive it is to 'retool' for making miniatures, it's incredibly expensive to make the moulding for both the metal and plastic parts and if something goes wrong or it doesn't meet the standard/requirements the company is looking for it can push the lead time and expenses up (this happened with the Millennium Falcon and they actually had to completely retool for that miniature)

    Now if you start providing ways for your existing client base to source playing materials through other avenues you are going to be cutting in to any profits that are going to help the company release newer models. Let's face it we are an impatient lot and if say there was a deck for the SE5 available as a separate add on we would all probably just buy the pack and go through shapeways to get the miniature.

    Then you have players like me, I buy the miniatures out of necessity, I actually hate the Ares miniatures - I think they are crude and poorly modeled and the painting is dire at the best of times (If you ever strip one down to the bare metal you'll see just how much detail is lost in the painting!) especially when compared to other games such as the X-wing miniatures that are at a much smaller scale and have a much higher level of detail in the molds and painting.

    At the end of the day I would much rather source my miniatures through Valom, Shapeways and other 1/144 scale modelers as I also love painting and building my own, I'm sure there are more like me and this would hit revenue for Ares and contribute to the further demise of the game and Ares ability to continue it.

    It's sad to say that Wings of Glory in both WWI and WWII is a fringe game, those that play it love it passionately, I certainly do, but when you look at it in the grand scheme of things Wings of War is never going to be the huge it we hope it will be.

    You want the Ares to produce more on a quicker time frame...... BUY BUY BUY miniatures don't just buy two or three of a new release - BUY THEM ALL!

    Talk to your LGS and have them put a window display up..... one of the members here did a stella job of making display for his library so volunteer to make a display, and hold regular events at the LGS..... it's how Games Workshop became the monster it is today - they focused on the new recruits - even now GW makes no secret of not giving a damn about veterans of the games they offer (many are now run by Fantasy Flight Games) to them its all about the latest game and capturing as much new blood as they can!

    Note: I worked for GW many many years ago so know about how it works.
    This is, of course, where the huge Nexus/Ares mistake of mixing slow sellers & popular planes in a single series is such a disaster for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarEast View Post
    Very easy.... each card has a number remember.
    This is the method I used when first getting in to the Valom/Shapeways scene.
    So first aircraft you chose your cards and write the number on a pad in the aircraft console, then do the same for all other aircraft that share the same deck. Then when you come to move them, all you do is use the appropriate card then cross out the movement, move on to the next plane
    This is pretty similar to what I do. You just leave the decks out for whoever needs them to actually move their plane. You use a sheet with all the cards printed on it for reference and planning, then you just write down the moves. Really easy and fast to pick up.

  46. #46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greenalfonzo View Post
    This is, of course, where the huge Nexus/Ares mistake of mixing slow sellers & popular planes in a single series is such a disaster for them.
    You see that's very subjective, what you might see as a plane you want might not be what somebody else is after. The other issue I see here is that Nexus/Ares don't really know where they are actually going with this. They have this game that sells on a slow sure tap but it's not really the big hitter.

    I also feel that they need to bring in a fresh product management team for this game as I really don't see any real change in the direction or any new dynamics to the game since they switched to miniatures, everything else has just been repackaging and branding. No disrespect to those currently doing the job, it's a great game but I think they have taken it as far as it can go and without fresh input this game WILL die out as more and more people switch to making their own maneuver decks and ordering models elsewhere or switch to a competitors product who do have a long term business plan for the game.

  47. #47

    Default

    My wife runs her own business.
    If I had a pound for every time someone came up to her and suggested how she should manage her business, or expand her product range...

    I think it's very easy for us to talk about what Ares shoud do, or "missed opportunites"; but small businesses have to live within the limitations of cash flow, production bandwidth and risk profile. I think we have to consider that Ares might be happy with the WoG range being moderately, but reliabley successful.

    I'm not suggesting that Ares have a perfect knowledge of the Wings of Glory domain; but they know a lot more than I do about what they're selling and what they're not.
    I've been bitten by the bug and spent a lot on WoG products, and it's nothing compared to some on this forum.
    But I've also been surprised by how many people I know own a small number of WoG planes.
    My guess is that their sales profile doesn't just reflect the purchases of this forum's posters, or even necessarily what Games Shop owners see.

    And I certainly don't know much about their manifacturing considerations either.

    I short, I don't feel qualified to understand what they should or should not be doing.

    But I would say that if people feel there is a range of products that might work beyond what Ares offer now, then perhaps there's business opportunity for someone.
    Certainly there are enough people on this forum who already do some of that to offer advice.
    Last edited by QB Fox; 11-16-2014 at 05:21.

  48. #48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QB Fox View Post
    But I would say that if people feel there is a range of prodcuts that might work beyond what Ares offer now, then perhaps there's business opportunity for someone.
    Certainly there are enough people on this forum who already do some of that to offer advice.
    Generic maneuver decks

  49. #49

    LOOP
    Guest


    Default

    Ares do reprints of minis but mayby they could do some reprits of the old boosterpacks as well. Not a new
    produkt, just a reprint....

  50. #50

    Default

    I've enjoyed reading this thread -- there are a lot of good and interesting points raised. I might as well add a few comments of my own.

    I am probably somewhat atypical as I don't actually own any WGF planes and am unlikely to buy any. I prefer planes of my own manufacture, or planes at a different scale than normal. I have bought sets of cards -- Famous Aces, Booster Packs, Rules and Accessories -- and would buy additional cards if they were available. Now, even if the cards were available on their own, my purchases would probably not go very far to keeping Ares afloat, but they would get more $$ from me that way than they do right now.

    I understand why Ares doesn't sell the cards separately. I'm certainly not their target market. They're targeting the buyers of fleets of models, and the few $$ they lose from not supporting what I would buy probably doesn't figure much.

    To compensate, I have also used the technique of writing down orders and using a single deck to fly many airplanes. Rather than writing the cards number, though, I just sketch the manuever arrows. It is very quick to do; probably quicker than shuffling through the deck to find the cards that you want. (I just make sure to have an aide memoir at the top of each sheet so that I know how many side slips etc. are available for each plane.)

    Anyhow. Just my 2 cents.

Page 1 of 7 1234567 LastLast


Similar Missions

  1. Extra Maneuver Decks
    By KirkH in forum WGF: General Discussions
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 01-23-2017, 11:36
  2. Extra Damage Decks
    By ktodd in forum WGF: General Discussions
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 07-30-2016, 16:30
  3. Need Extra Maneuver Decks
    By freebird-52 in forum WGF: General Discussions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-08-2013, 05:03
  4. extra maneuver decks?
    By pstapleton53 in forum WGF: General Discussions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-27-2012, 08:25

Members who have read this thread: 15

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •