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Thread: Are some planes poor choices without altitude rules?

  1. #1

    Default Are some planes poor choices without altitude rules?

    Which planes should be avoided by new players who have not worked their way up to using altitude yet.
    What I mean to ask is, can anyone tell me which planes do not do so well in dog fights without being able to use their climb rate advantage.
    I looked at the list of climb rates but climb rate alone does not account for its maneuver deck.

    Oh! I should mention I a referring to WWI
    Last edited by bmwrider; 10-28-2014 at 11:06.

  2. #2

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    Well Todd, without altitude rules I would simply avoid B firing decks vs. A firing decks ...

  3. #3

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    I personally feel the Dr.I is at pretty big disadvantage when altitude rules are not used. Its slow speed means that opponents can really dictate when and where the fight takes place. With the altitude rules, it's higher rate of climb allows it to have some control over this as well.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwrider View Post
    Which planes should be avoided by new players who have not worked their way up to using altitude yet...
    None Todd, provided you are battling with contemporary types; the Dr1 ain't quick but it's manoeuvrability part way makes up for this (it can't outclimb the Spads, SE5 or N.28 in the game anyway but can out manoeuvre them) and you don't need altitude to fly B against A gun types, if you follow that thinking then some historic opponent types may never meet and you'll just be denying yourself the pleasure of using them !

    "He is wise who watches"

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mau Fox View Post
    Well Todd, without altitude rules I would simply avoid B firing decks vs. A firing decks ...
    Do most planes with B guns climb fast?
    Or is it just that the B planes now bring nothing to the fight without their climb rate?

  6. #6

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    I don't have enough minis to compare stats so I need some other way to understand while I am getting started.
    Maneuverability + climb rate + damage deck + damage resistance = combat level so to speak

  7. #7

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    Planes with 'B' guns (the ones with a single MG) tend to be earlier planes than those that are 'A' gunned (having 2 MGs). As such, they usually had less powerful engines and so were slower and had more trouble climbing. In general, they will be inherently at a disadvantage fighting against later aircraft with more powerful guns and more powerful engines. This will be the case with or without altitude rules. If anything, using altitude will accentuate the difference with late-war aircraft having generally superior climb rates.

    As others have said, though, don't shy away from 'B' gunned craft. Use them with their historical counterparts and they will do just fine. (Note, though, that twin-gunned Albatros D.IIIs were contemporary with a lot of single-gunned Entente planes!) A DH.2, for example, will fare poorly against a Fokker D.VII, but should do well enough against a Fokker E.III.

    As an additional note, I will usually use the 'B' gunned two-seaters with 'A' gunned scouts. The twin firing arc will more than make up for the reduced firepower of the individual guns.

    I generally don't use altitude in my games. (I think my attitude towards those rules are getting to be quite well known around here!) There aren't any planes that I wouldn't use in a scenario, though.

  8. #8

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    As the Oberst mentioned: The Fokker Dr.I can show it's complete superiority only with altituide rules.

    But you can't abstain from it anyways.
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  9. #9

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    I don't play with altitude rules, and I try to match historical adversaries. Dr.1s and Albatros D.Vas against Triplanes? It depends on who's flying what and what damage draws come up, but either can win.

    I made up this list to do the matches: General Overview of WWI Miniatures - Timeline and Theaters

    I flew a scenario of Fokker Triplanes against Sopwith Triplanes, and both sides won once each.

    PS: If I'm flying against Andy [Nightbomber], I don't plan on surviving, no matter what he is flying against me. He's just that good of a pilot.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwrider View Post
    Or is it just that the B planes now bring nothing to the fight without their climb rate?
    Hi Todd,

    Actually I intended you were referring to new players having little confidence with the game. I was not meaning B planes bring nothing to the fight without altitude rules.

    Sorry for having confused you.

    I found that new players, that also have poor confidence with the manouvre decks, quickly alienate from the game as soon as they found their aircraft crippled after a few game turns.

    That's why, in my club, I tend to avoid B vs. A dogfights between "young eagles"

    Mau.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mau Fox View Post
    Hi Todd,

    Actually I intended you were referring to new players having little confidence with the game. I was not meaning B planes bring nothing to the fight without altitude rules.

    Sorry for having confused you.

    I found that new players, that also have poor confidence with the manouvre decks, quickly alienate from the game as soon as they found their aircraft crippled after a few game turns.

    That's why, in my club, I tend to avoid B vs. A dogfights between "young eagles"

    Mau.
    Hmmm... From things I've read on this Forum, that could be "young eagles" of all ages, too.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #12

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    As some of the guys have pointed out, as long as you stick to historical match ups, everything should play out nicely. There are some planes that do not fly historically with out altitude though. While the Dr.I can't out climb the SPAD XIII, making the SPAD fight in the vertical drastically reduces it speed. The Dr.I also slows down, but not in proportion to the SPAD. The SE5 is even worse off when forced into the vertical. Not only does it slow down like the SPAD, many of its better moves are Steeps, so by climbing ad diving, you can remove those from its available options to a large extent.

    Also, two seaters become more problematic to fight against without altitude rules. You can't get behind and below them like pilots did in real life.

    You can still shoot down two seaters or win with Dr.Is without altitude rules, you just have to play them differently.

  13. #13

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    Use year limits and points to help determine what is fair.
    Flying a Fokker E.I vs a Camel is not fair, but verses a DH2 is fair.
    Instead of a one on one match up Albatros D.III vs Spad VII non altitude. Try 2 Albatros D.IIIs vs 3 Spad VII's. It is a lot of fun.

    In the file section there are stats for every aircraft produced.
    There are points and how to determine points in this section.

  14. #14

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    A deck isn't that scary advantage. IMHO maneuverability is most important feature in the game. Maneuver gives the edge, not machine gun.

  15. #15

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    I see occassional posts about the advantages of playing with altitude when attacking 2-seaters -- being able to come up underneath and behind in their blind spot. No offense, but does this EVER actually happen in WGF?

    Based on my own experience in playing the game, it is rare enough that you are able to catch an enemy in a position where you are able to follow it around for more than 1 or 2 maneouver cards. (Am I right? How often have you been in a tailing position and managed to keep it for more than a single card.) Then try doing that same thing one peg below the enemy... and necessarily at short range since your firing range is reduced. And keep that without the enemy diving and putting you out of that position.

    I want to ask all of you who play with altitiude: In all honesty, does this happen? Often enough to justify saying that 'is how you do it when you use altitiude rules'?

  16. #16

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    Hi Jon,

    basically it depends on how much realism and tactics players want to experience.

    I guess that the success of the WoG game system is that it can be played by a variety of players each of them to his own taste.

    Having said that, let's come to the two seaters ...

    Two seaters were mainly used for recon mission and artillery spotting, hence these had to fly ... high (3.000 - 4.000 meters on the Italian front). I like to play two seaters that way thus a two seater, on my map, would appear at a high altitude, usually six pegs.

    There are two ways I use the interceptors (usually at a 2:1 ratio i.e. 2 scouts and 1 two seater), one is that they enter the map from a low altitude, usually two or three pegs, as if they were alarmed and had to take off in order to intercept the enemy machine; the other is a coincidental meeting while the scouts are on cruise duties, we usually assume a cruise altitude from four to seven pegs randomly.
    Playing that ways I usually see (and play) nice and tactics games where the two seater manages to climb and escape taking advantage of altitude and speed or dive quickly in order to have the interceptors outside the blind spot of the rear MG thus accepting the fight, this is at discrection of players depending on their personality.
    It is also nice to see the scouts managing to climb and approach as fast as they can from below taking real advantage of the rear blind spot or diving as birds of prey on the two seater (in that case even a +1 damage due to firing from above rule).

    That's the way I read things went in reality. It has been interesting to read Francesco Baracca's letters to his mother where the Ace describes his tactics and, early in the war, his complain about the Ni.11 being too slow at climbing so that, often, the enemy had all the time to fly home before the Nieuport reached the needed altitude.

    I also like matches that end that way: the two seater managed to escape and little or even none single bullet has been shot.
    For me, it is not compulsory turning the sky into a fireworks field as I tend to appreciate the whole completion of the aircraft I am flying at that moment hence its manouvrability, its climb rate and its fire power.

    Of course, players can also play without altitude and having fun. That's the great aspect of the WoG system.

    Mau

  17. #17

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    I think it's important to remember that WGF isn't a balanced game, historically WW1 planes were often very mismatched. Just look at the plucky DH2: underpowered and undergunned from the moment the Albatros entered the scene, yet the DH2 stayed in service right through til 1917. See the mismatch as a challenge! I've shot down many a Dr.1 with my DH2

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrkev View Post
    See the mismatch as a challenge! I've shot down many a Dr.1 with my DH2
    Kev, never was a truer word spoken.
    I love underdogs! And the DH.2 as well!

    Mau

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mau Fox View Post
    Kev, never was a truer word spoken.
    I love underdogs! And the DH.2 as well!

    Mau
    Last night my SS.III was shot down by Nieuport 23 - such things happen often enough in the game to keep it unpredictable, and yet enough historically accurate.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by steel_ratt View Post
    I see occassional posts about the advantages of playing with altitude when attacking 2-seaters -- being able to come up underneath and behind in their blind spot. No offense, but does this EVER actually happen in WGF?
    Sure does

    Quote Originally Posted by steel_ratt View Post
    Based on my own experience in playing the game, it is rare enough that you are able to catch an enemy in a position where you are able to follow it around for more than 1 or 2 maneouver cards. (Am I right? How often have you been in a tailing position and managed to keep it for more than a single card.) Then try doing that same thing one peg below the enemy... and necessarily at short range since your firing range is reduced. And keep that without the enemy diving and putting you out of that position.
    With a high climb rate scout, it's relativity easy to stay just one climb counter below a two seater. The best is when you can line up a dive (or over dive) that allows you to shoot at them with the +1 going down and then sit right below them for a turn or two shooting them. I've seen a game where one player tails another player over three turns... that's 9 maneuver cards. And many other were someone got shot 4+ consecutive times by the same opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by steel_ratt View Post
    I want to ask all of you who play with altitiude: In all honesty, does this happen? Often enough to justify saying that 'is how you do it when you use altitiude rules'?
    Yep, or at least how I try to do it The more historically the two seater player plays, the more it works out this way of course. Getting below and in between a two seater can make it really hard for them to reach their objective. Even if you don't shoot them down, a lot of times you can deny them access to their target area and win the mission.

    Now, if the two seater is being flown like a scout, the chance of any of this working go way out the window... but so too does their objective most of the time. Again, a win for the scout mission wise if not combat wise.

  21. #21

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    "Now, if the two seater is being flown like a scout, the chance of any of this working go way out the window..."

    Ah... now this, I think, is the crux of the issue. I've seen it happen frequently, possibly with the strategy being "let's get rid of these EA so that we can complete our mission in peace". Possibly worth playing around with that.

    Thanks for the feedback.

  22. #22

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    There sure is a mix of opinions here.
    I would have to say that straight up dog fights, altitude could set some planes apart, I just don't want to miss the usefulness of a plane due to my ignorance of its capabilities.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwrider View Post
    There sure is a mix of opinions here.
    I would have to say that straight up dog fights, altitude could set some planes apart, I just don't want to miss the usefulness of a plane due to my ignorance of its capabilities.
    For the pure fun of the game, just play whatever mini you like against whatever you like. Each game will be fun. If you are playing really mismatched planes against each other, just play two games of it... with the players switching sides between games. That way each get to play using the superior plane


    Quote Originally Posted by steel_ratt View Post
    "Now, if the two seater is being flown like a scout, the chance of any of this working go way out the window..."

    Ah... now this, I think, is the crux of the issue. I've seen it happen frequently, possibly with the strategy being "let's get rid of these EA so that we can complete our mission in peace". Possibly worth playing around with that.

    Thanks for the feedback.
    Yes, this being a game we as "pilots" to not concern ourselves with mortality or orders from HQ. When you play in a campaign environment, both of those change to a degree. The other real life factors that we don't game with most of the time are fuel (or time over target) and surprise. The time over target aspect would mitigate the “I’m going to go shoot down the EA so that I can do my job in peace” aspect a lot. Dogfighting takes both time and fuel, and when your job is to take recce pics and get them back to HQ in the fastest and safest manor, a two seater pilot would not waste those two things.

    Surprise also made a lot of two seaters abandon the mission and fly for safety as well. With the observer’s head down doing his job, the pilot was left to fly a predictable flight path and only one set of eyes to both watch the sky for EA and watch his flight path to give the observer the view he needed. This allowed many scouts to obtain superior positions before they were spotted by the two seater pilot.

    Both of those real life aspects are hard to translate to the tabletop.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwrider View Post
    ... I just don't want to miss the usefulness of a plane due to my ignorance of its capabilities.
    Then the answer is to play with them all and learn their capabilities from experience. Once you've gone through what you own you'll have a pretty good idea how others you don't have are likely to perform and will be able to make purchases based on that experience.

  25. #25

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    Last night I flew a Sopwith Camel against an 'auto-pilot' Dr.I using the solo rules, and no altitude rules.

    The DR.I completely obliberated my Camel.

  26. #26

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    Fly planes against their historical opposition for the most enjoyable game and for the best insights into the historical "realities" of the period. Flying DH2s against Fokker D.VIIs is going to be really challenging and probably not much fun (for the DH.2 pilot). Not all planes were an even match (hey, that's reality) but (in general), the hopeless mismatches had been weeded out buy newer types or high casualty rates. I know that people play the games for various reasons, but (IMO) if you stick to planes of a contemporary period, you will get more from the game.

    Chris

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by LS650 View Post
    Last night I flew a Sopwith Camel against an 'auto-pilot' Dr.I using the solo rules, and no altitude rules.

    The DR.I completely obliberated my Camel.
    It can happen! Just like in the real war, Dr.I pilots did score kills over Camels. It would be interesting to see what the kill ratios were between those two planes. Even if we could did that data out, it would be very subjective at best. In WWI dogfights consisted of many aircraft and it would be really hard to quantify the data. But, it's still be interesting I say!



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