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Thread: ? about the use of Richthofen's Roland C II

  1. #1

    Cool ? about the use of Richthofen's Roland C II

    A guy in my WOG group picked up the Richthofen C II without a front MG, considering we are new to the game I think it bummed him out a little when we realized it was missing a front arc.

    I think the history of he used the C II would help us set up game using that plane so will find some love for the unique version of the Roland Richthofen flew.

    Why did they remove the front gun and what was the advantage?
    What specialized missions was the plane used for?

    Any info would be greatly appreciated.
    And I hope this will help others find an interest in the Manfred C.II
    Last edited by bmwrider; 10-22-2014 at 13:16.

  2. #2

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    I have no idea why the gun was removed.
    If your friend is disappointed he could easily draw the front arc of fire on the base and use the plane as it had the front gun, as normal
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  3. #3

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    Ciao guys,

    actually the gun was not removed.

    A first batch of 50 units ordered in December 1915 came with an LMG for the observer. These were the C.II.

    A second batch of 25 units ordered in March 1916 came with the addition of a fixed forward firing LMG. From then on all successive orders came with the added LMG. These were the C.IIa. A total of 217 built.

    Mau

  4. #4

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    The nutshell is, it's not a "removed" but a "Never Had". Also, if memory serves MvR started as an observer and then moved up-front...

  5. #5

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    Ok, but how did MvR use the C.II?
    Was it photo missions only?
    Did that plane fly mostly during the day? explaining the sky blue paint.
    Was the C.II ever used for bombing?

    We would like to use the C.II in game as it was used in the real world.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwrider View Post
    Ok, but how did MvR use the C.II?
    Was it photo missions only?
    Did that plane fly mostly during the day? explaining the sky blue paint.
    Was the C.II ever used for bombing?

    We would like to use the C.II in game as it was used in the real world.
    Without dipping into a bunch of books, the C.II was used for pretty much any 2 eater mission.
    At that point of the war, they Germans didn't do a lot of day bombing over the lines, and ground unit support missions hadn't started yet.
    Now, the Germans usually escorted 2-seaters with other 2-seaters, often of the same type. But due to it's maneuverability, the C.II was often used as an escort for other types.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  7. #7

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    Todd,
    I suggest you to have a look at this online Windsock Datafile about the Roland C.II.

    You will find some clear explanations to your questions.

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/190994072...LFG-Roland-CII

    Mau

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Also, if memory serves MvR started as an observer and then moved up-front...
    That is correct.

    It might be of interest to recall that the early use of the flying machines was intended to be an ersatz of Cavalry actions intended as long range recon patrols.
    Hence the use of Cavalry officers such as MvR and Voss, just to name a couple of the better known.

    It is also of interest that the early two seater pilots were unteroffizieren as "driving" the flying machine was intended to be a secondary role as opposed to the primary role of spotting enemy positions or troops.
    Thus the "chaffeur" role was more appropriate for NCO's rather than officers.

    Mau

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mau Fox View Post
    That is correct.

    It might be of interest to recall that the early use of the flying machines was intended to be an ersatz of Cavalry actions intended as long range recon patrols.
    Hence the use of Cavalry officers such as MvR and Voss, just to name a couple of the better known.

    It is also of interest that the early two seater pilots were unteroffizieren as "driving" the flying machine was intended to be a secondary role as opposed to the primary role of spotting enemy positions or troops.
    Thus the "chaffeur" role was more appropriate for NCO's rather than officers.

    Mau
    There's also the fact that with the locking down of the trenchlines (less so on the Eastern front, but still there), the cavalry became under used, if not unused. So many cavalrymen found other means of employment; I suspect the officers had an easier time transferring to flying, while many of the troopers got put elsewhere, including the trenches
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwrider View Post
    Ok, but how did MvR use the C.II? Did that plane fly mostly during the day? explaining the sky blue paint. Was the C.II ever used for bombing?.
    Recon, fighter escort, bombing - you'll have to do a bit of research to find out what MvR specifically did & when the aircraft was used for the various roles.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwrider View Post
    Ok, but how did MvR use the C.II?
    Was it photo missions only?


    Without a front gun any aircraft could be used for photo-recce, general recce (eyesight), artillery observation either by radio or hand-dropped signals, dropping propaganda leaflets, dropping messages to forward troops, dropping light bombs, grenades or flechettes. These later were buckets of steel darts which could be tipped over the side from about 5,000 feet. On their way down they attained the speed of a rifle bullet and would be lethal if dropped along a supply route, especially over marching troops or horse-drawn vehicles.

    The French were quite fond of flechettes and once killed a top ranking German general with one.

    In addition the observer can still fire his gun over the side and trench strafe or attack a balloon. The absence of the front gun is no great handicap.

    To confirm earlier point most early two seaters (except perhaps the One and a Half Strutter) started life with only the rear gun. The front gun was either added 'in the field' or after interrupter/synchroniser gears were invented. The One and A Half Strutter started with the front gun as it was the first UK aircraft to be designed for a synchronised gun.

    Barry

  12. #12

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    Interesting thread here. What I know about the Roland is that it was fast, could fly high and was used to deep recon in enemy lines (am I correct?).
    Im thinking in getting a FFA292B Roland and im seeing it has two firing arcs and its almost 360º. Is it too "overpowered"?
    Thanks


    Nick

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barkmann View Post
    Im thinking in getting a FFA292B Roland and im seeing it has two firing arcs and its almost 360º. Is it too "overpowered"?
    There's a lot of carping about 2-seaters being overpowered; don't believe a word of it. Get to short range aft, and stay there (use the "blind spot" rule, and it makes life even worse for the 2-holer).

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barkmann View Post
    Interesting thread here. What I know about the Roland is that it was fast, could fly high and was used to deep recon in enemy lines (am I correct?).
    Im thinking in getting a FFA292B Roland and im seeing it has two firing arcs and its almost 360º. Is it too "overpowered"?
    Thanks


    Nick
    The newer wings of glory, Richthofen (sky blue) version is the only one that does not have a front gun

  15. #15

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    Not true, the original WoW Richthofen Roland (which the mini you refer to is a straight reprint of other than some format changes in the card art) was rear-gun-only too. I specifically asked my contacts at Ares if there were any stat changes to warrant replacing my originals with new, and the answer was "No".

  16. #16

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    There were two blue ones in the first series. Richtofen's, then the other one which had a front gun.

  17. #17

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    How to tell, the front-gunner had a "Walfisch" face on it, two dot "eyes"and a line "mouth"--the ancestor of the Sharkmouth motif, and a very common addition to Rolands, Eduard Ritter von Schleich being one of its more famous fans.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mau Fox View Post
    Todd,
    I suggest you to have a look at this online Windsock Datafile about the Roland C.II.

    You will find some clear explanations to your questions.

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/190994072...LFG-Roland-CII

    Mau
    Great info there Maurizio....Thanks for the link.

  19. #19

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    Here the plane identified as von Richthofen's:

    Name:  CIIMvR2.jpg
Views: 232
Size:  165.3 KB

    On his diary, there are several references to when he flew two-seaters. Here:

    http://www.century-of-flight.net/Avi...%20journal.htm

    Search for this:

    In the Air
    The next morning at seven o'clock I was to fly for the first time as an observer!-I was naturally very excited, for I had no idea what it would be like. Everyone whom I had asked about his feelings told me a different tale. The night before, I went to bed earlier than usual in order to be thoroughly refreshed the next morning. We drove over to the flying ground, and I got into a flying machine for the first time. The draught from the propeller was a beastly nuisance. I found it quite impossible to make myself understood by the pilot...
    And go on reading.

    No reference to the models he flew. Here a summary of the facts in his diary but with references to them:

    http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/...p/redbaron.htm

    Displeased with the inaction, Richthofen asked for a transfer to the Luftstreitkräfte (Aerial Combat Forces) in May 1915, after an unpleasant assignment to the quartermaster's corps. Granted, he traveled back to the East where he served as an observer with Fliegerabteilung 69 from June to August 1915. Flying long reconnaissance missions over the front, Richthofen was happier and soon was transferred back to the Western Front. Arriving at Ostend on August 21, he flew as an observer during patrols over the North Sea.
    Shifted south to Champagne, he succeeded in shooting down a British Farman with his observer's machine gun, but received no credit as it fell behind the Allied lines. In October 1915, Richthofen began pilot's training and passed his final exams on Christmas Day. Assigned to Kampfgeschwader 2, he began flying bombing missions in support of German troops during the Battle of Verdun. Flying two-seater Albatros B.IIs and Albatros C.IIIs, Richthofen rigged a machine gun on the top wing of his aircraft. With this arrangement, he down a French Nieuport on April 26, but again received no credit.
    Our Roland C.II seems to enter the scene just a bit later:

    http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=43053

    At the link above, his C.II is credited as a Kagohl 2/ Kasta 8 plane based at Mont-Morville aerodrome in May-June 1916.
    (notice that no Albatros C.III is quoted).

    Here why the Roland has a larger than usual field of fire, in our game:

    Name:  roland_C2.jpg
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Size:  24.8 KB

    Outr three engines Caproni Ca.3 were used to drop flechettes too, at least in North Africa.
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 10-24-2014 at 00:16.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Here why the Roland has a larger than usual field of fire, in our game:

    Name:  roland_C2.jpg
Views: 219
Size:  24.8 KB
    That shows the arc of fire to perfection Andrea.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    There's a lot of carping about 2-seaters being overpowered; don't believe a word of it. Get to short range aft, and stay there (use the "blind spot" rule, and it makes life even worse for the 2-holer).
    Yes, ok. And anyway there are two B guns so it's a challenge to the fighters.
    I know Richtofen's Roland doesn't have the frontal gun, but I dont want it actually. Well. Not now. The Roland I really wanted was the other blue Roland depicted in WoW series II. But I cant find it.
    And Andrea, that image shows very good the firing arc. But it cant shoot in an altitude below the plane right?
    Thanks


    Nick

  22. #22

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    Also, to help your friend to come over this little "flaw": I also remember from MvR's book that he was quite an aggressive observer and pushed his pilot to go after enemy fighters. It was the very earliest days of combat aviation. So the plane was at least equal to the scouts of its time.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Du doch nicht! View Post
    Also, to help your friend to come over this little "flaw": I also remember from MvR's book that he was quite an aggressive observer and pushed his pilot to go after enemy fighters. It was the very earliest days of combat aviation. So the plane was at least equal to the scouts of its time.
    The Roland C.II was almost a Bristol Fighter in it's day; even Ball had problems with them in a Nieuport.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus



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