Using 2 seater in group play?
As you may know my group is new to the game, we want to add 2 seaters but seem to see a balance issue between both sides, it looks like the german planes have far better firing arcs.
Is this the case or are we just not clear about how the arcs work?
If this is the case how do we keep it balanced, we are more concerned with game play than historical accuracy.
We want to keep it fun so we will keep playing.
The Airco DH.4 seems to have larger blind spots.
The only twoseater with a different firing arc is the Roland C.II. As for balance, the Entente are for the most part faster and more heavily armed as I recall (I've not compared them in years.
i think other than the roland the firing arcs for all the 2 seaters is the same (our group uses a house rule for the halberstadt clII giving the rear gun an arc encompassing everything not covered by the front gun after seeing original pics showing a barrel deflector "hoop" on the top wing to prevent shooting off the tips of the propeller). ill do a side by side comparison of the bases of all but the rumpler (still need one of those).
generally the entente 2 seaters tend to be better armed and faster when compared to their contemporaries (ie the keil mission dh4). i dont think the differences amount to much overall as theyre fairly close anyway.
That would help us a lot, thank you.Originally Posted by milcoll73
Regardless of balance of play, using two-seaters in their own right can be a lot of fun. Throw a two-seater in, and watch how the fighters learn to either stall to stay on their tail or turn away after making a pass so as to not be shot at by both the front and rear guns.
We have one of each and the roland seemed to have far more shots in both games.
I think it may have less effect in senario play, I hope so at least.
heres pics of the bases for the 7 i own. also heres some pics from our last monday night game that started out all 2 seaters. some of us respawned as fighters and they didnt fare all that well vs the remaining 2 seaters.
I have found the best way for singles to deal with two seaters, is to stay behind them, stall or side slip a lot and gang up in twos to split their fire. They cant hit two of you at once.
Also get up close and personal. Two A cards vs 2 Bs soon starts to tell no matter how unlucky you are.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Its kind of funny seeing those single seaters all nose down towards the end. A dangerous game if you are on your own!!
An enjoyable picture run! Its great seeing the planes in action close up.
War gaming 101: Concentration of fire, distribution of damage.
"Disperse to move; concentrate to fight."
May be of some help:
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...Wings-of-Glory
(Andrea's point values)
Nice pics of the game Phillip. But, I am extremely disheartened to see that the Pfalz was allowed to explode. Blasphemy my friend, I would have none of that!
weeeeelllllll i would go so far as to say i ALLOWED it to explodeNice pics of the game Phillip. But, I am extremely disheartened to see that the Pfalz was allowed to explode.........things just kind of got out of hand and it sort of BLEW UP in my face.........
For two seaters, get into short range, on the tail and the two seater can't shoot due to blind spot, if you can do this at beginning of turn, you get tailing also, so you should get in a few cards without a shot back.
After seeing this I ordered a couple of Rolands and a DH4 from the latest reprint series.
heres an excerpt concerning 2 seaters from a book i read recently, "war birds, diary of an unknown aviator" c1926.
"I hear that Mathews is now a member of the sadder-but-wiser club. He dove straight down on a two-seater and the observer didnt do a thing but shoot the front end of his plane full of holes. He got back to the lines but cracked up and lit on his neck. These boys will learn some day that one two-seater can lick one scout any time unless the scout can stick under his blind spot. But these Hun two-seaters havent got any blind spot. The long ones have a hole in the bottom of the fusilage and they can shoot down at you and these new ones have a double tail and are so short that the observer can stand up and fire right down at you while the pilot simply pulls up in a stall. And you cant take them from a front angle because the observer can traverse his guns over the top of the upper wing. Of course, if theres two of you, that is another story, but it takes two scouts to lick a good two-seater. These Bristol pilots say they can lick two scouts. They fight them like scouts and the observer simply guards the tail. If you want to go to heaven, the easiest way i know is to dive on a two-seater. We all do it and take a chance but the percentage of gentlemen who got cured of it is rising."
i find this to be basically true in game and, once again, makes me admire how right they got it.
And that is why I feel that if you shoot down a two-seater than you should get double the points for a kill.heres an excerpt concerning 2 seaters from a book i read recently, "war birds, diary of an unknown aviator" c1926.
"I hear that Mathews is now a member of the sadder-but-wiser club. He dove straight down on a two-seater and the observer didnt do a thing but shoot the front end of his plane full of holes. He got back to the lines but cracked up and lit on his neck. These boys will learn some day that one two-seater can lick one scout any time unless the scout can stick under his blind spot. But these Hun two-seaters havent got any blind spot. The long ones have a hole in the bottom of the fusilage and they can shoot down at you and these new ones have a double tail and are so short that the observer can stand up and fire right down at you while the pilot simply pulls up in a stall. And you cant take them from a front angle because the observer can traverse his guns over the top of the upper wing. Of course, if theres two of you, that is another story, but it takes two scouts to lick a good two-seater. These Bristol pilots say they can lick two scouts. They fight them like scouts and the observer simply guards the tail. If you want to go to heaven, the easiest way i know is to dive on a two-seater. We all do it and take a chance but the percentage of gentlemen who got cured of it is rising."
i find this to be basically true in game and, once again, makes me admire how right they got it.
Thomas
Interesting account. I hadn't read of any German 2-seater with a rear "tunnel gun"; only the Gothas AFAIK. Maybe the writer was grouping those in the "2-seater" category?heres an excerpt concerning 2 seaters from a book i read recently, "war birds, diary of an unknown aviator" c1926.
"I hear that Mathews is now a member of the sadder-but-wiser club. He dove straight down on a two-seater and the observer didnt do a thing but shoot the front end of his plane full of holes. He got back to the lines but cracked up and lit on his neck. These boys will learn some day that one two-seater can lick one scout any time unless the scout can stick under his blind spot. But these Hun two-seaters havent got any blind spot. The long ones have a hole in the bottom of the fusilage and they can shoot down at you and these new ones have a double tail and are so short that the observer can stand up and fire right down at you while the pilot simply pulls up in a stall. And you cant take them from a front angle because the observer can traverse his guns over the top of the upper wing. Of course, if theres two of you, that is another story, but it takes two scouts to lick a good two-seater. These Bristol pilots say they can lick two scouts. They fight them like scouts and the observer simply guards the tail. If you want to go to heaven, the easiest way i know is to dive on a two-seater. We all do it and take a chance but the percentage of gentlemen who got cured of it is rising."
i find this to be basically true in game and, once again, makes me admire how right they got it.
The "new ones" with a "double tail" are obviously the Hannover CLs; very dangerous 2-seaters!
Interesting account, Phillip. Thanks for sharing.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
I just think that if I use a Roland C.II against other 2 seaters I have a very large advantage.
I worry that it will reduce the fun for players on the other end of the roland, I am more concerned about keeping my players interested than I am in winning.
I want to play this great game a lot, and discouraging players is no way to do it.
This is just a concern that I want to address before its a problem.
In 1-on-1 games it's a true headache. But in multi games, other side can have few planes more, or you can make Entente players ace pilots.
Entente players ace pilots?
I am still too new to know what this means
There are rules in the RAP for ace abilities.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
your welcome. i wondered that myself about the tunnel gun reference since the gothas the only a/c i can recall with one. this excerpt is the reason our group uses the house rule allowing the halberstadt an increased firing arc. anyone know why the roland has the gap that it does? the little "cupola" on the top wing doesnt look large enough to justify it.
Propeller
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
i have the same concerns especially with inexperienced players. just last night was playing with 3 inexperienced players that all wanted to fly fokker d7s. i figured id let them gang up on me in a caproni to introduce them to multi crew a/c and b guns and front and rear firing arcs. the wrinkle was that another younger though intermediate player wanted to join in after about 3 turns. i thought another 2 seater would be a fair match. but after he came in it was pretty much a turkey shoot for the caproni and 2 seater. 2 fokkers down and the 3rd had to leave, the caproni had about 8 pts damage and a few 0s the 2 seater had 3 points left. it was eye opening to say the least.
does the roland have a significantly longer propeller than the halberstadt? the barrel deflector "hoop" ive seen in pics of the halberstadt isnt big enough to cause such a blind spot. from the looks of it it looks like id pretty much restrict the observer from hitting anything in the front arc but anywhere else would be fair game.Propeller
Karl
I'd have to check the minis again, but IIRC, the front BS is for same altitude, short range only, like the rear BS from the tail.
The Halberstadt should be the same (Bristol fighter too).
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
the firing arcs for the bristol and halberstadt are the same but after seeing pics of how high off the fuselage the turret ring was mounted on the halberstadt and the hoop on the top wing to deflect the barrel (presumably to prevent shooting the propeller tips) we agreed that clearly the observer could fire forward. we dont generally use altitude rules to speed up gameplay. does that mean that with altitude rules in play the rear gunners can shoot at a/c in front of the 2 seater at long range?
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