Shapeways New Pricing Scheme

Mitchell Jetten · 10-02-2014 08:02

Hi ReducedAirFact,

This is because of the powder that is unused can only be recycled once or twice.
Powder that’s been heated and cooled has been slightly damaged by this process and will make much lower quality prints. To save costs but maintain quality, we mix together 60% recycled and 40% fresh powder and use this to fill our printers. The recycled powder is itself 60% recycled, and that recycled portion is 60% twice recycled, and so on forever.

We will be writing a blog post about how machine costs are calculated later today

**QB Fox** · 10-02-2014 08:19

Originally Posted by Mitchell Jetten

This is because of the powder that is unused can only be recycled once or twice.

Unless I've misunderstood, that's not quite true.

Following your maths more than 20% of the material has been recycled 3 or more times, and more than 10% 4 or more times.

But I think I get the point about wastage.

Mitchell Jetten · 10-02-2014 08:21

Yeah my apologies, once or twice was the easy way to explain it, you are right that some of the material is used multiple times!

**OldernGreyer** · 10-02-2014 11:00

Well, I'd hate to be the person with the microscope.
Yep that grain of powder can be used again.
Nope, bit used.
Nope, bit used.
Good to go again.
Yep that one is still good.
Nope, completely Kna*****d
Yep looks unused........................

**Zoe Brain** · 10-02-2014 23:48

Originally Posted by jbmacek

And the one that I just finished a week or two ago? It's going up by close to $20. I was hoping to be able to buy one, but not at that price.

I don't need an R.IV. Don't even want one that much - only one was used operationally.
But it's now or never. I've just put one in my shopping cart, and some hangers too.

**Zoe Brain** · 10-03-2014 00:08

Originally Posted by Mitchell Jetten

We will be writing a blog post about how machine costs are calculated later today

Dank u well.

Looking at the new pricing scheme, I can see how it makes sense. It's very unfortunate that the larger biplanes are going to increase so much they're no longer viable, as I feel the real labour cost of producing them isn't reflected accurately. They take up a large amount of tray volume (hence larger proportion of the labour costs for a run, as well as amortisation of machine costs), but the cleaning labour cost is probably less than for smaller models. There may be a justification for re-introducing the large volume discount. However, in the grand scheme of things, that's fine-tuning.

I've found in my last orders that the cleaning was almost nonexistent anyway, all hollows still filled with powder, and quite a lot of the externals too. Given the high labour costs, and decreased quality with re-used powder, perhaps it's cheaper not to clean them, except quickly and superficially. Recover 40% of the powder in 10% of the time it takes for 80%.

Where SW dropped the ball is in the timing. Before Xmas, and only giving one week for designers with hundreds of models to optimise for the new pricing scheme. We're not going to be affected too much (small rise, only large biplanes no longer viable), but the H0 and N gauge railway people are going to really hurt.

One thing I have to praise SW for. Now instead of paying $20, I pay $15 for shipping to Australia, via USPS. That's a bargain (which means you may be losing money on it for multiple-hundred-dollar orders like mine).

**Zoe Brain** · 10-03-2014 00:45

Mitchell - here's some of the things SW has allowed us to do.

CM: 8.09 w x 5.33 d x 2.264 h - The model is only just over 5cm long

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CM: 8.794 w x 10.04 d x 2.658 h - These ones a little under 9cm

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**jbmacek** · 10-03-2014 05:20

They have really allowed us to expand on the game, that's for sure. I've played whole missions in which we used nothing but 3d printed planes, and no "official" planes.

**Boney10** · 10-03-2014 05:32

I would have liked to have got a couple of AEG IV for Xmas, I just ordered a few Spits and Whirlwinds just before this was announced. Looks like it's back to Red a Eagle and superglue

**Jager** · 10-03-2014 12:45

Originally Posted by decapod

There may be ways to reduce the new prices slightly. Moving the prop from the tail to underneath the body helps a little bit.

Or maybe leave the prop off entirely, for those who will attach a prop disc?
Karl

**Zoe Brain** · 10-04-2014 05:07

While I'd recommend sticking with Shapeways for most products -especially the WWII stuff where prices will mainly stay the same or drop - for large biplanes it might be worthwhile going to other 3D printers. It's not reasonable to have Shapeways make a loss with their way of doing business, other manufacturers who do things in a smaller-scale less industrial-strength way might be able to make these models at a reasonable cost and still make a profit.

It's chancy. Shapeways have a well-deserved rep for quality, and re-printing if the model is unsatisfactory. Their customer service is a huge advantage. Those things which we've become accustomed to might not be true for less professional operations.

From the Shapeways forum:

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As you can see, Shapeways prices are in general very competitive, especially considering the support, forum etc. But here, as with large biplanes, prices have gone up by about 50%. Competitors might be able to do it for a 10% price rise, and in one case, maybe even a drop (though I wasn't impressed by pinshape's website)

**Zoe Brain** · 10-04-2014 05:12

Originally Posted by Boney10

I would have liked to have got a couple of AEG IV for Xmas, I just ordered a few Spits and Whirlwinds just before this was announced. Looks like it's back to Red a Eagle and superglue

I think the AEG G.IV, being somewhat dense, might be about the same price as before. Spits and Whirlwinds might become cheaper (unless bought as multiples - there the designers might have to do some work, spruing them right wingtip to right wingtip and alternating direction)

**decapod** · 10-04-2014 07:48

Originally Posted by Zoe Brain

While I'd recommend sticking with Shapeways for most products -especially the WWII stuff where prices will mainly stay the same or drop - for large biplanes it might be worthwhile going to other 3D printers. It's not reasonable to have Shapeways make a loss with their way of doing business, other manufacturers who do things in a smaller-scale less industrial-strength way might be able to make these models at a reasonable cost and still make a profit.

It's chancy. Shapeways have a well-deserved rep for quality, and re-printing if the model is unsatisfactory. Their customer service is a huge advantage. Those things which we've become accustomed to might not be true for less professional operations.

As you can see, Shapeways prices are in general very competitive, especially considering the support, forum etc. But here, as with large biplanes, prices have gone up by about 50%. Competitors might be able to do it for a 10% price rise, and in one case, maybe even a drop (though I wasn't impressed by pinshape's website)

Unfortunately a lot of the other sites won't print models that shapeways accept - their material minimum thicknesses are usually more.

I'll do my best to try and optimised my models but it looks like there will be some rises.

WW2 seems to be the winner here - most of my monoplanes should drop in price. Though Oddly the DVIII and Bristol M1C stayed the same instead of dropping.

**Stoff** · 10-04-2014 08:33

Or make the move to paper modeling.

Stoff

**Jager** · 10-04-2014 09:28

Sadly for me, Shapeways was my go-to for biplanes: there are resin options for 1/200 monoplanes, but the thought of building 1/144 biplanes ....

Well, I still have those Reversco D.VIIs and Pflaz D.XIIs to build. Maybe I'll get better.
And, yes Christoph, there's always the paper route.
Karl

**Womble** · 10-04-2014 11:10

Daryl, do you think you'll get the ships Camel on sale before the prices go up?

**Пилот** · 10-04-2014 11:28

If monoplane prices are dropping, it's probably good news for me - as I plan to boost Yugoslav theatre and open some new front, too.

**ReducedAirFact** · 10-04-2014 14:40

Originally Posted by Womble

Daryl, do you think you'll get the ships Camel on sale before the prices go up?

No, I always order (and receive) some test prints before marking them for sale to the public. However, Shapeways' "before and after" pricing tool says that model will only see small increase in price (~$0.50US). I could mark it as "BETA" if you want to take a chance and include it in a larger order.

**Zoe Brain** · 10-04-2014 15:31

Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact

No, I always order (and receive) some test prints before marking them for sale to the public. However, Shapeways' "before and after" pricing tool says that model will only see small increase in price (~$0.50US). I could mark it as "BETA" if you want to take a chance and include it in a larger order.

YES PLEASE

**Boney10** · 10-04-2014 16:23

Originally Posted by Zoe Brain

I think the AEG G.IV, being somewhat dense, might be about the same price as before. Spits and Whirlwinds might become cheaper (unless bought as multiples - there the designers might have to do some work, spruing them right wingtip to right wingtip and alternating direction)

I'll keep that in mind then Zoe, I'll wait and see what the price change is next week.
I may still get my AEG for Xmas then

**Womble** · 10-04-2014 17:11

Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact

No, I always order (and receive) some test prints before marking them for sale to the public. However, Shapeways' "before and after" pricing tool says that model will only see small increase in price (~$0.50US). I could mark it as "BETA" if you want to take a chance and include it in a larger order.

Yes pls. I have a 130 euro order in my basket and it'd make a great addition to it. Thanks.

Ian

**ReducedAirFact** · 10-04-2014 19:35

Done!

**Jager** · 10-05-2014 03:47

Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact

No, I always order (and receive) some test prints before marking them for sale to the public. However, Shapeways' "before and after" pricing tool says that model will only see small increase in price (~$0.50US). I could mark it as "BETA" if you want to take a chance and include it in a larger order.

Daryl:
what does the pricing tool say about your Albatross C.V and LVG C.VI?
Karl

**ReducedAirFact** · 10-05-2014 10:01

Originally Posted by Jager

Daryl:
what does the pricing tool say about your Albatross C.V and LVG C.VI?
Karl

They'll be US$1.00 to $2.00 more expensive, which is typical for two-seaters.

The only things I have that this may be catastrophic for are the Zeppelin and hangar frames. The jury is still out on balloons....Shapeway's original tools made it look like the changes had little impact on their price, but they've modified their tool and the recent version shows them increasing greatly too (probably because the new tool has figured out that they can't put another print in the void in the center of the balloon, or something along those lines). Observers will need to be repacked tighter.

I'll let others speak about the large airplanes if they have specific examples. I wonder if they could still be printed cheaply if a little minor assembly is needed on the wings and struts? The problem with current models is that you will be paying for the empty space between the wings.

**Jager** · 10-05-2014 14:12

Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact

They'll be US$1.00 to $2.00 more expensive, which is typical for two-seaters.

Thanks; I can wait for funding to replenish then. Maybe SW will have a holiday sale this year.

Karl

**jbmacek** · 10-06-2014 05:01

Time is almost up. I'm hemming and hawing over what to put in this purchase. That R.IV would look neat on the table, and I think I'd feel a bit daft having spent all the time doing the 3d modelling on that thing, and not buying one.

**decapod** · 10-06-2014 05:06

Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact

I wonder if they could still be printed cheaply if a little minor assembly is needed on the wings and struts? The problem with current models is that you will be paying for the empty space between the wings.

Let me know if you find anything - I've tried a few options to pack multiples tighter without assembly but it didn't have much effect on price.

**jbmacek** · 10-06-2014 05:19

I did a test on my N.28, spruing two together to see what the new price would be. The difference in price between the new with sprue and the old without will be 81 cents. Honestly, I think I'd rather just drop my markup and soak up the price increase. Changing every file would take too much time, and time is money.

**Womble** · 10-06-2014 13:41

Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact

Done!

Thanks Daryl, I've placed an order.

**Zoe Brain** · 10-06-2014 20:29

Originally Posted by jbmacek

Time is almost up. I'm hemming and hawing over what to put in this purchase. That R.IV would look neat on the table, and I think I'd feel a bit daft having spent all the time doing the 3d modelling on that thing, and not buying one.

I've bought one anyway.

Things to consider for cost minimisation on the smaller biplanes: first, put the prop as a separate (but sprued) part under the top wing of a biplane, rather than on trailing edge.
Second, do the same for the undercart. Cut out a thin slice from the bottom of the model where the undercarriage is attached, then move the slice so it's sprued between the wings. You're paying for that volume anyway. This might save a whopping 25c.

On the larger ones - you could make an "R.VI plus escort" with a few fighters sprued between the struts of the main wings. Again, saving 25c per cc of wasted volume.

But again, we're fiddling round the edges, a few cents here and there, when the real problem is the extra dollars. Loops won't work due to orientation issues, it has to be sprues.

**7eat51** · 10-06-2014 21:27

Just put in an order. I have a few new models coming for the Polish-Soviet War and early WWI. I will be interested to see how prices are in the new day.

To all of you who have created these designs - thank you.

**jbmacek** · 10-07-2014 08:20

Okay, I'll be clicking over all of my models to "not for sale" during the next hour or so while I try figuring out what to do next.
Thanks for buying!!!

**Boney10** · 10-07-2014 09:50

Shame it's come to this John, but for me thanks for the SE5 foursome but mostly the MS BB, cheers

**jbmacek** · 10-07-2014 09:56

No worries. I'm sure we'll figure out something and pick up the pieces down the road.

**decapod** · 10-07-2014 15:05

Prices for my models are now up to date with the new pricing scheme.
About half of them are now "at cost" (mostly multiples x2 or x4) and the rest are hopefully at the same or lower price than before.

Hopefully we'll find a way to get things down again - it looks like the model railway fraternity were hit a lot harder than the 1/144 modellers.

**Zoe Brain** · 10-07-2014 15:50

The only ones badly hit are the various Zeppelin-Staakens, which are now all over $75.
The O/400 is now $33.76 - he can't have much (if any) markup on that.
The Ilya Maurometz likewise - still $24.77
AEG G.IV from one designer has gone up a dollar, but the Kampfflieger one is still the old price.

Designers with reasonable markups (still only 20%) are absorbing the price. Those with almost no markup (Reduced Aircraft Factory, I'm looking at you) that used to sell at cost or near it have gone up a bit, but can still be cheaper than competitors.

All the Zeps though are now in the "Luxury Goods" category. When compared to full retail on most models in wargaming, even now they're not too bad. And I can attest to the fact that they look quite special on the table. I don't expect Ares will be able to produce them for much less - we're talking about a model 4 times the size of a 1/200 B-17F.

**john snelling** · 10-07-2014 16:46

Thanks once again for the heads up. What cost me $55 now would cost $80.

**Teaticket** · 10-07-2014 17:54

Just looked at the new prices. Placed an order over the weekend, on 25 planes (including 2 Staakens, 2 Handley Pages...) I dodged a bullet and saved $101.43! The order totalled ~$320 so considerable savings on the big toys. Single smaller planes didn't go up that much, ~$1-2 a plane. Some designer's priced haven't changed at all? Strange to see that.

**ReducedAirFact** · 10-07-2014 22:11

I too have reopened my shop for sale, except for the handful of designs that are now impractical under the new pricing (zeppelin frame, hangar frames, perhaps balloons) and ones I'll need to redesign for better "packing" (observers). Congrats to those that got their orders in under the old prices. If there's one silver lining to the cloud, I expect we'll be seeing a lot of beautifully painted planes in the Painting Showcase over the coming months!

On a side note...Teaticket, the final price of the plane did not change on Tuesday if the original_price+designer_markup was greater than the new price... Shapeways simply left those (customer) prices as they were. Since most production prices went up for these types of models, that means the production price increases simply ate directly into the designer's markup. They didn't leave us fully helpless against this... there were some tools to pre-set those markups when the prices changed. But I bet most low-volume designers didn't bother with them. So you may see some of the prices rise again as the designers restore their markup to normal levels.

**jbmacek** · 10-08-2014 05:31

Originally Posted by Zoe Brain

The only ones badly hit are the various Zeppelin-Staakens, which are now all over $75...

And there are no mark-ups on any of those.

On the plus side, the price of the Catalina dropped by $10.

**Jager** · 10-08-2014 12:25

Originally Posted by jbmacek

On the plus side, the price of the Catalina dropped by $10.

Adding that to my wish list

Karl

**Smitch** · 10-08-2014 12:40

My local gaming group just put in a combined Shapeways order for a bunch of models; I have eight models coming myself, mostly various two-seaters.

Even with the new pricing, I will likely continue buying from Shapeways, if the average increase for a standard size biplane is in the neighborhood of $1 - $2. I just won't be buying a Staaken!

**jbmacek** · 10-08-2014 13:15

Originally Posted by Smitch

I just won't be buying a Staaken!

Which is pretty much why I posted this. I figured there were a few out there who might have been waiting to buy a Staaken when Shapeways had their Xmas sale, and by then, the price would be beyond their reach.

As it was, I sold four, including one to myself, so I'm glad I let you folks know. I think the thing that sold the most during this affair would be multi-pack planes, especially multi-pack Nieuports, followed by multi-pack Dolphins.

**Teaticket** · 10-08-2014 13:28

Appreciated the heads up. I bought 2 Staakens! Probably would have only gotten one before the looming price hike but I figure I won't ever need another now. Also got one of your multi-pack Nieuports, can never have enough of them.

**jbmacek** · 10-08-2014 13:40

Awesome! Thanks!!!

**RJG173** · 10-08-2014 14:04

Sorry, John, but I didn't buy any of your models, but Colinwe should be happy.

**jbmacek** · 10-08-2014 14:13

That's cool! Spreading it around is a great idea!

**Zoe Brain** · 10-09-2014 03:48

A caveat - SW has admitted that the algorithm used to calculate "machine volume" is buggy. Most models aren't affected. Those that are - it may as well be a random number. Models that should be $20 can be listed as $3, others at $1500 (actual examples).

SW thinks that only about 1% of models are affected - but they have 2,000,000 models on file.

A quick look through the list showed no obviously insane prices - but check anyway when you adjust markup to avoid surprises when they fix it.

Also...

As some of you may have noticed, we've temporarily increased lead times for the Strong and Flexible family on the materials status page and your cart.

We expect to experience temporary shipping delays of up to 1-2 business days while we move to our new factory in Eindhoven.

It affects anyone shipping outside the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand (basically wherever the Eindhoven factory ships to!)

If you are in those regions affected, you will see the correct dates in your cart, if you're not, you won't.

Please note that this is just temporary, so we have NOT changed the lead times on the materials page.

Thanks for your patience while we move all the 3D printers!

**Zoe Brain** · 10-09-2014 18:17

I made 2 large orders just before the price change, deliberately concentrating on aircraft I thought would rise in price.

About a third have not. One was 7c cheaper. Rises varied from 40c for the cheaper single seaters and more expensive 2-seaters, to $3 for the very cheapest 2-seaters which were being sold with almost no margin. All 2-seaters from various designers now are comparable in price.

Kampfflieger had markups I would call "reasonable" before, rather than "concessionary". Commercially, 60-70% is not uncommon, and I think his 30% or so was very good. It's just that others were using 5-10% as a service to the hobby rather than as a commercial venture, we've been spoilt. Anyway, he's eating the increase (to remain competitive?). A Dr.I will cost $8 from him, but $5.50 from another designer (instead of $5.00). The only significant rise I could see was his 4xStrutter model, which went from $20 to $27. That's probably cost price, no margin. Still less than $8 a model, which when you think about it, is dirt cheap.

A couple exploded in price. The hanger frame - $14 before, $55 now (and not for sale because of that). The R.IV - $55 before, $76 now (with no margin). The 2mm Chain Home radar set went from $32 to over $80 IIRC.

In summary - designers who almost gave away their stuff free have had to raise prices, but those who were making a dollar or three on each have not. Apart from the Giants, aircraft in general are still as cheap as chips.

**ReducedAirFact** · 10-09-2014 23:34

While some designs have probably gone extinct, there are some things we can do under the new pricing rules that work to our advantage. Material is now much cheaper, as long as you keep the overall size down. As an example, I reworked my "Observers with Lewis Guns" models -- a design with 36 figures. I used to cost $5-$8 (I don't remember) but it shot up over US$20 in WSF material under the new model. That's because it was pretty sparse...lots of dead air (and dead air now costs money).

I packed the figures closer together, reduced the "margins", and added a second layer of inverted figures (for a total of 72), and the price for the new model is in the $10-$15 range, so roughly the same cost per observer as before. It looks messy, but the top and bottom layers don't touch, and I think you'll be able to cut the uprights and just lift the top layer apart from the bottom.

So some things can certainly be salvaged.