Zeppelins in WoG

LOOP · 09-10-2014 01:14

Well I start this thread as a result of a missionreport from jbmacek.
He had made a fantasic "mini" of zeppelin that made up a part of the mission.
As I find these flying cigars fascinating I really would like to hear all your experiences of gaming with them and collect all sorts of info. on how to make them playable.

Do all zeps have 4 gunners? How fast are they (in WoG-speed) How to bring them down? (rockets?, incendinary bullets?, just a motherload of bullets...)
The altitude-issue. etc, etc..

So please will someone get the snowball rolling

P-G

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 09-10-2014 03:10

Start by having a look here.
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-Archidamus%29

And here.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...y-2nd-3rd-1916

Rob.

**jbmacek** · 09-10-2014 05:55

Originally Posted by LOOP

Well I start this thread as a result of a missionreport from jbmacek.
He had made a fantasic "mini" of zeppelin that made up a part of the mission.

Yoink!!! Credit where it is due. That mini was made by Clipper/Dave.

LOOP · 09-10-2014 06:05

My bad... Sorry Clipper/Dave

**jbmacek** · 09-10-2014 06:29

No worries, my mistake for assuming everyone would recognize that fact.
And the zepp belongs to Tuskine/Anthony.

He was running it using whatever rules are floating around here on the site, as far as I know. I wasn't too worried about how he was running it; I was worried about not getting blasted by the thing!

LOOP · 09-10-2014 06:31

How many gunpoints do that Zep have? 3? Or more?

**Kubajs** · 09-10-2014 06:34

My version of Zeppelin is very simple to play. But it's possible to play with two of them.
More info you can find here:
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...e-Con-testing)
and here:
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...ons-Collection
and here:
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...=1#post297016¨
The Pictures from playing with Herr.Oberst here:
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...l=1#post306899

**jbmacek** · 09-10-2014 06:55

Originally Posted by LOOP

How many gunpoints do that Zep have? 3? Or more?

This one had, as I recall, 5 fore, 3 amidships, and 1 aft.

LOOP · 09-10-2014 06:56

that is some heavy armament.....
How fast is it? It can't be very fast.

LOOP · 09-10-2014 06:59

And how do you move it? I mean you can't use a card or base that are as big as it is. Then it would be a real racer!! Do you have a card that are "fighter"-sized?

LOOP · 09-10-2014 07:37

Here I found a useful thread.... What you can't find here ain't worth reading.......
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...?752-zeppelins

**tusekine** · 09-10-2014 08:05

Originally Posted by LOOP

And how do you move it? I mean you can't use a card or base that are as big as it is. Then it would be a real racer!! Do you have a card that are "fighter"-sized?

Per-Gunnar,

I used XD speed based on some information Clipper sent along with the Zep. But I did not do the actual WoW movement (put card to front of base, then move back of base to arrow of card) since that would result in an enormous speed. I out the card to the front of the base, then moved the front of the base to the card, so the Zep only moved the distance of the arrow each turn. According to Jane's, speed for that Zep was 60mph, or just under 100 km/h, so according to the guidelines used by the unofficial stats committee, it should be an XB or XC deck.

The base that Clipper provided (as an aside, the whole Zeppelin just looks and feels fantastic!) is smaller than the actual model, and the model itself is 1:214 scale. So we used the actual model rather than the base to figure shooting and hits. For the next game, I will create a base on a 1:144 scale, and will add firing arcs.

We also played without altitude, this being the first time we ever flew a Zeppelin, but will probably use altitude in future games. Since the Zeppelin has 3 guns above front, two below front, two amidships below, and two in the tail, it will make firing arcs more relevant and interesting. As it was, I tried to adjust firing arcs based on common sense. One interesting point is that since the guns are located on the center line of the zeppelin and the craft is so wide, it is quite difficult for the Zeppelin gunners to hit anyone within half a ruler for double damage.

**flash** · 09-10-2014 08:47

From the other thread:

Right all you Zep fanatics out there Per has thrown down the gauntlet.
Now give him the truth about Zeps. If it comes only from me he may think I am biased.
Rob.

This was my first ever shot on a Zep Per....
Name: TWWS Zep 1 - My first shot on a Zep 1.jpg
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Destroyed a gas cell and damaged some around it ...

And this was it's first round of return fire ...!
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Name: TWWS Zep 2 - Zeps first shot on me.jpg
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The second round of return fire wasn't quite as bad thanks to a few zeroes but that was eight (8) potential hits in return in just two movement phases - thank goodness I was at long range !

Hopefully that will give you an idea of how tough they can be.

LOOP · 09-11-2014 00:23

Originally Posted by tusekine

We also played without altitude, this being the first time we ever flew a Zeppelin, but will probably use altitude in future games. Since the Zeppelin has 3 guns above front, two below front, two amidships below, and two in the tail, it will make firing arcs more relevant and interesting. As it was, I tried to adjust firing arcs based on common sense. One interesting point is that since the guns are located on the center line of the zeppelin and the craft is so wide, it is quite difficult for the Zeppelin gunners to hit anyone within half a ruler for double damage.

Aboute the gunners on the zep. Because they have so many guns isn't it nesseary to use some sort of altitude-rules. If I where to attack a zep I would try not to attack from the side. Every gunner on the ship will have a go at me then. But an attack from above, below or perhaps straight at the back or front will spare me some holes in my AC. But then I must be able to get to a diffrent altitude than the zep.
How did you solve this problem?

**gully_raker** · 09-11-2014 17:39

Originally Posted by LOOP

Aboute the gunners on the zep. Because they have so many guns isn't it nesseary to use some sort of altitude-rules. If I where to attack a zep I would try not to attack from the side. Every gunner on the ship will have a go at me then. But an attack from above, below or perhaps straight at the back or front will spare me some holes in my AC. But then I must be able to get to a diffrent altitude than the zep.
How did you solve this problem?

Per take a look at F/O Kytes BRF mission info in the WW1 Over the Trenches Early Doors campaign for a good idea on Zep rules & shooting. Its called "The Bigger they come----"

LOOP · 09-11-2014 23:50

Originally Posted by gully_raker

Per take a look at F/O Kytes BRF mission info in the WW1 Over the Trenches Early Doors campaign for a good idea on Zep rules & shooting. Its called "The Bigger they come----"

I'll do that. Thanks

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 09-12-2014 00:11

I can't really claim much originality for that Chaps. I just modified Clipper's rules which he sends out with the Zep models.
Rob.

**flash** · 09-12-2014 01:21

Originally Posted by LOOP

About the gunners on the zep. Because they have so many guns isn't it nesseary to use some sort of altitude-rules. If I where to attack a zep I would try not to attack from the side. Every gunner on the ship will have a go at me then. But an attack from above, below or perhaps straight at the back or front will spare me some holes in my AC. But then I must be able to get to a diffrent altitude than the zep. How did you solve this problem?

We played that particular game without altitude to keep it simple for the first time out - so it can be played without them ! In that pass enthusiasm took over, and as in real life without experience would you know where all the guns are ? Probably not.
Problem with altitude is that a Zep was generally higher than a fighter could get so that could make attacks from above difficult; a scenario adjustment would sort that issue but playing the birds at a height of numerous pegs is also difficult if you want to make it look right. An attack from below is recommended but each gondola has guns so getting into position might still be punishing - guns top front and in the very tail also discourage those approaches and remember that once you've got in to shoot them up you still have to get out so are then likely to get clobbered by their other guns ! When you've played this type of game a few times you begin to find the paths of least resistance, gun jams and wounded gunners sometimes further opening the door to get in and out without too much damage.

**Nightbomber** · 09-12-2014 02:52

I have finished my house rules " Easy Zeppelin 2D/3D" and hope to test them tonight on table in a 4 players group. If the plan works out, the AAR with pictures will follow.
Andy.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 09-12-2014 03:22

I look forward to comparing your rules to Clipper's set Andy.
Rob.

LOOP · 09-12-2014 04:08

Originally Posted by Nightbomber

I have finished my house rules " Easy Zeppelin 2D/3D" and hope to test them tonight on table in a 4 players group. If the plan works out, the AAR with pictures will follow.
Andy.

Lookong forward to that report

LOOP · 09-12-2014 04:48

Originally Posted by flash

We played that particular game without altitude to keep it simple for the first time out - so it can be played without them ! In that pass enthusiasm took over, and as in real life without experience would you know where all the guns are ? Probably not.
Problem with altitude is that a Zep was generally higher than a fighter could get so that could make attacks from above difficult; a scenario adjustment would sort that issue but playing the birds at a height of numerous pegs is also difficult if you want to make it look right. An attack from below is recommended but each gondola has guns so getting into position might still be punishing - guns top front and in the very tail also discourage those approaches and remember that once you've got in to shoot them up you still have to get out so are then likely to get clobbered by their other guns ! When you've played this type of game a few times you begin to find the paths of least resistance, gun jams and wounded gunners sometimes further opening the door to get in and out without too much damage.

Well I realize all this. And the fact that Zeps flew so high that they where allmost impossible to reach for ACs makes many senarios hard to recreate.
A doking senario or a zep forced down by bad weather leave a door open for an attack from above.
And the fact that zeps had so many guns must have forced pilots to learn the best way to approach them.
Another thing. As a pilot you could try to create a safer passway by targeting the gunners and silence the mashineguns that way. It must be easier to do that on such a slow target, even if the
thing is shooting back at you, than say on a bomber. You wrote something in that direction but I mean as a approachstrategy.

**flash** · 09-12-2014 12:09

Originally Posted by LOOP

...Another thing. As a pilot you could try to create a safer passway by targeting the gunners and silence the mashineguns that way. It must be easier to do that on such a slow target, even if the thing is shooting back at you, than say on a bomber...

In real life you might try that - bit hard to emulate in the game when you're drawing cards from a deck though. Anyway, have a go yourself and see how you get on !

**flash** · 09-12-2014 12:09

Originally Posted by LOOP

...Another thing. As a pilot you could try to create a safer passway by targeting the gunners and silence the mashineguns that way. It must be easier to do that on such a slow target, even if the thing is shooting back at you, than say on a bomber...

In real life you might try that - bit hard to emulate in the game when you're drawing cards from a deck though. Anyway, have a go yourself and see how you get on !

**Nightbomber** · 09-12-2014 20:06

Rules tested

Blast we had. AAR will follow.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 09-13-2014 01:26

That's good to hear Andy.
I've been fretting over how well this baby would play ever since I conceived it.
thought it might be a Blimp too far.
Rob.

**Nightbomber** · 09-13-2014 06:49

The AAR is here, chaps.
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...es-Strike-Back

LOOP · 09-17-2014 23:58

Originally Posted by flash

In real life you might try that - bit hard to emulate in the game when you're drawing cards from a deck though. Anyway, have a go yourself and see how you get on !

Well true again. It easy to forget that this is only a game. Well I must find time to read all your rules and make a 2D, paper-zep. (you have to start somewhere

)
Now I'm recovering from a nasty stomachsickness..... No fun.....

**flash** · 09-18-2014 00:24

Good luck with both of those ! Get well soon

LOOP · 09-18-2014 06:56

Originally Posted by Nightbomber

The AAR is here, chaps.
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...es-Strike-Back

When reading this AAR I got to wonder if it is possible to score a 0 hit while shooting a zep. But then again....... you could argue that you only hit things
that was allready damanged and thereby do no addisional damage. And with the +1 rule you DO do some damage....so... This needs some more thinking

Great AAR Andrzej by the way

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 09-18-2014 07:04

Originally Posted by LOOP

When reading this AAR I got to wonder if it is possible to score a 0 hit while shooting a zep. But then again....... you could argue that you only hit things
that was allready damanged and thereby do no addisional damage. And with the +1 rule you DO do some damage....so... This needs some more thinking

Great AAR Andrzej by the way

Certainly with ordinary bullets Loop you could get a bullet to go right through the Zep and the pressure of the gas just closed up the hole made with the flap of gut like a sealing washer. It did happen.
Rob.

LOOP · 09-18-2014 07:31

I'm so glad that I opened this thread. It makes some good reading and set me in a creative mode. Me'sa like it!!

LOOP · 09-18-2014 07:38

I'm so glad that I opened this thread. It makes some good reading and set me in a creative mode. Me'sa like it!!

**Nightbomber** · 09-18-2014 07:47

Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte

Certainly with ordinary bullets Loop you could get a bullet to go right through the Zep and the pressure of the gas just closed up the hole made with the flap of gut like a sealing washer. It did happen.
Rob.

Thanks for that self sealing info, Rob. I must do some research on fighting Zeps. Could you suggest any reading?

**RJG173** · 09-18-2014 08:14

The Zeppelin Fighters by Arch Whitehouse comes readily to mind. Although it may not be easy to find.

**Nightbomber** · 09-18-2014 08:38

Thank you Robert. Have found one used copy on ebay.uk for 7 USD and bought on the spot.

**flash** · 09-18-2014 10:46

Originally Posted by LOOP

When reading this AAR I got to wonder if it is possible to score a 0 hit while shooting a zep. But then again....... you could argue that you only hit things that was already damaged and thereby do no addisional damage....

You are regarding the zero as a miss whereas you could regard it as a hit, just one that caused no serious damage.

Originally Posted by LOOP

...And with the +1 rule you DO do some damage....so... This needs some more thinking

Great AAR Andrzej by the way

+1 on a 0 does not count and is still a zero

Aim Rule: "When a plane fires at the same enemy plane for multiple phases in a row, it can fire with more accuracy. From the second phase of consecutive fire, even from one turn to the next, all the damage cards causing damage score one additional damage point. However, zeroes are still considered zeroes."

LOOP · 09-18-2014 12:00

And you are of course right Dave. My bad.
I had to much focus on how big they are and that they must be easier to hit.
But a zero is a zero.

**flash** · 09-19-2014 00:08

Having had my tail whipped in my latest outing against the beasts I did suggest removal of the zeros, other than those with special damage, from the attackers deck and no +1 for the defenders guns (in this case we were not using individual weapons).. not sure it would have made a huge difference but would have made me feel a lot better !!

LOOP · 09-19-2014 01:25

Originally Posted by flash

Having had my tail whipped in my latest outing against the beasts I did suggest removal of the zeros, other than those with special damage, from the attackers deck and no +1 for the defenders guns (in this case we were not using individual weapons).. not sure it would have made a huge difference but would have made me feel a lot better !!

Maybe it was this I wished for to