A mystery unravelled.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-07-2014 13:02

Researching for my August Game over Malta, I unwittingly unraveled a mystery that has been bugging me from the start of my campaign. I knew that a French seaplane had defected from Tunisia to join the British in Malta during August 40, but could find no supporting evidence as to what sort of plane it was.
Trawling through the web tonight I suddenly came across this.

According to Armistice terms, all French aircraft were grounded, but after the Royal Navy attack on the French fleet in Mers el-Kébir, maritime patrol off the North African coast became a regular duty for the crews. In spite of the Royal Navy attack, one Latécoère crew defected to British-held Malta in July 1940. The airmen joined the RAF, and their aircraft, repainted in RAF colours, was used operationally.

.

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All my Christmases have come at once.
Rob.

**Barkmann** · 08-07-2014 13:40

Great find Rob! I got a book that tells something about this plane:
Attachment 139645
Sorry for the quality of the image.
Thanks

Nick

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-07-2014 14:35

Thanks for the extra info Nicolas.

Now the real problems start. When it was a pipe dream no worries.

Now I need to work out how to make one, get the stats committee to do the maths, get a card done and find a movement deck to fit it.
No worries there then.

Rob.

**Lt. S.Kafloc** · 08-07-2014 14:42

You need the plane first Rob. The floats and struts should be no problem.

Neil

**clipper1801** · 08-07-2014 15:27

Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte

Thanks for the extra info Nicolas.

Now the real problems start. When it was a pipe dream no worries.

Now I need to work out how to make one, get the stats committee to do the maths, get a card done and find a movement deck to fit it.
No worries there then.

Rob.

How many do you want? Elves are waiting . . ..

**OldGuy59** · 08-07-2014 15:31

Not that the stats are right, but...

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**clipper1801** · 08-07-2014 15:35

Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte

Thanks for the extra info Nicolas.

Now the real problems start. When it was a pipe dream no worries.

Now I need to work out how to make one, get the stats committee to do the maths, get a card done and find a movement deck to fit it.
No worries there then.

Rob.

How many do you want? Elves are waiting . . ..

**Barkmann** · 08-07-2014 16:35

No problem Rob.

This plane is beautiful and a miniature of it would be great. I will search all internet to find it.
Thanks

Nick

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-08-2014 00:20

Originally Posted by Skafloc

You need the plane first Rob. The floats and struts should be no problem.

Neil

Yes Neil, having seen your How to on Float planes and having done a couple of WW1 conversions, I had a mind to try it.
Just a matter of finding something like the right body.
Any ideas anyone?
Rob.

**Rabbit 3** · 08-08-2014 04:01

Originally Posted by clipper1801

How many do you want? Elves are waiting . . ..

By the looks of it he only needs one. A single elf can probably knock one up in a couple of minuites!

**Jager** · 08-08-2014 04:17

From the wiki article, and an on-line aircraft performance site, I'd go with Carl Brisgamer's XS deck (300kph). Ceiling: 7; Climb: 8
Hits and guns look good, Mike.
Karl

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-08-2014 08:49

Originally Posted by clipper1801

How many do you want? Elves are waiting . . ..

Just the one if it's no bother Dave. I will soon have more of your models than Ares ones at this rate.
I just noticed your Banner. Superb.
I don't think I have answers to all my questions answered so fast in all the time I have been on here.
Thanks to Clipper, OldGuy59, Barkman, and Jager.
Rob.

**Barkmann** · 08-08-2014 09:03

Here's another image, in the internet and in english:
Attachment 139795
Thanks

Nick

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-08-2014 10:46

Once again thank you Nick.
Rob.

**clipper1801** · 08-08-2014 14:34

Okay the elves did their job, now I have to do mine (mail duty)

I am also tossing in a set of outer pontoons for your Sunderland from Blackronin

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-08-2014 14:38

Originally Posted by Rabbit 3

By the looks of it he only needs one. A single elf can probably knock one up in a couple of minutes!

So it's true then.
Rob.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-08-2014 14:39

Originally Posted by clipper1801

Okay the elves did their job, now I have to do mine (mail duty)

I am also tossing in a set of outer pontoons for your Sunderland from Blackronin

Rob.

**Jager** · 08-08-2014 15:00

I don't know why anything David does surprises me, but it still does.

Karl

**Barkmann** · 08-08-2014 16:16

Ok, that mini as awesome! You really did a great job David. But what are the "elves"? When i see your mention, i laugh without reason.... Anyway
Thanks

Nick

**OldGuy59** · 08-08-2014 16:19

Darn,
I can't give you more Rep. Mutual admiration is not encouraged on this site.

**Lt. S.Kafloc** · 08-08-2014 16:34

Too darn quick, blink and you'd miss it. Great job as ever David, not forgetting the Elves too of course.

**gully_raker** · 08-08-2014 20:00

Another superb effort from Clipper & the Elves.
That great gesture sure does deserve Rep!

**Blackronin** · 08-09-2014 02:04

I just reached this thread and Dave already took care of it. Amazing. This plane has some sweet lines.
You are becoming the Museum of WW2 Air Combat, Rob.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-09-2014 02:32

Originally Posted by Blackronin

I just reached this thread and Dave already took care of it. Amazing. This plane has some sweet lines.
You are becoming the Museum of WW2 Air Combat, Rob.

I don't claim to be that by any stretch of the imagination Quim, but I am learning a lot about Malta in the course of this research.
Rob.

**Blackronin** · 08-09-2014 02:34

Well, soon you'll have all the planes that operated from Malta and that is grand.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-09-2014 02:39

There are just one or two more Quim, but they tended to just be passing through. I think that the only obviously serious omissions are now the Cant Bomber and the Beaufort Torpedo Bomber, if we exclude the invasion of Italy, and I don't intend to go that far.
Rob.

**Blackronin** · 08-09-2014 02:57

The Beauforts aren't hard to find. Try Ron. Was the Cant an Alcione?

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-09-2014 03:32

Originally Posted by Blackronin

The Beauforts aren't hard to find. Try Ron. Was the Cant an Alcione?

Yes! This is the one.

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Rob.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-09-2014 03:40

Originally Posted by Blackronin

The Beauforts aren't hard to find. Try Ron.

Ron who Quim?
Rob.

**Blackronin** · 08-09-2014 03:47

Ron Crawford from HBM miniatures. He still has (I think) Beauforts.
His mail: ron200hbm@gmavt.ne

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-09-2014 04:02

Originally Posted by Blackronin

Ron Crawford from HBM miniatures. He still has (I think) Beauforts.
His mail: ron200hbm@gmavt.ne

Thanks Quim,
i'll get in touch with him.
Rob.

**tikkifriend** · 08-09-2014 05:59

Originally Posted by clipper1801

Okay the elves did their job, now I have to do mine (mail duty)

I am also tossing in a set of outer pontoons for your Sunderland from Blackronin

The man is a God

**Barkmann** · 08-09-2014 07:52

Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte

Yes! This is the one.

Rob.

You mean this one Rob?
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/M...ione-italy-_JM
Brazilian collection. The only good thing that can add to WoG here, as far as i know.
Thanks

Nick

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-09-2014 08:21

That's the Baby Nicolas.
Rob.

**Barkmann** · 08-09-2014 08:32

What can i do? Anyway they are 1/144 a and come with a base.

Thanks

Nick

**flash** · 08-09-2014 11:21

And here it is in the flesh in Grand Harbour:

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Somebody else used them too !

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And here is something for the elves ...

**Blackronin** · 08-09-2014 11:24

Beautiful, Flash. This photo brings the campaign closer to reality, doesn't it?

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-09-2014 12:00

Originally Posted by Barkmann

What can i do? Anyway they are 1/144 a and come with a base.

Thanks

Nick

Nice find Nick.
It's just a pity they are in 144 and not 200.
Rob.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-09-2014 12:03

Originally Posted by flash

And here it is in the flesh in Grand Harbour:

Somebody else used them too !

And here is something for the elves ...

That is an incredible find Dave.
I have been chasing this for a year nearly, and just finding the name of the seaplane involved has opened up all this information.
thanks for this next piece of the jigsaw in place. now I will try and find out what happened to the French pilot after he joined the RAF.
Rob.

**Barkmann** · 08-09-2014 12:16

Can't you use them together Rob? I know it's different scales, but they are very close. Anyway, its your choice. And great find flash, the images really bring something more to the discussion.

Thanks

Nick

**Blackronin** · 08-09-2014 12:21

Originally Posted by Barkmann

Can't you use them together Rob? I know it's different scales, but they are very close. Anyway, its your choice. And great find flash, the images really bring something more to the discussion.

Thanks

Nick

Oh Nick! For some of us scale means a lot.

We just couldn't use scales so different as 1/144 and 1/200.
Scale is absolutely necessary for the "suspension of disbelief" that we look for in our games.

**Barkmann** · 08-09-2014 12:29

Originally Posted by Blackronin

Oh Nick! For some of us scale means a lot.

We just couldn't use scales so different as 1/144 and 1/200.
Scale is absolutely necessary for the "suspension of disbelief" that we look for in our games.

Of course, sorry Joaquim. Its just that this doesn't bother me a lot. I mean of course i CAN'T use a 1/200 BF109 with a 1/144 BF109. In the case of bombers i guess its different. Its STILL a different scale, but our eyes (at least mine) dont see a big diffence. But that is just for 1/144 and 1/200. And i can't say nothing as my minis for WWII didn't arrived (its been a month now!).
Thanks

Nick

**Blackronin** · 08-09-2014 12:32

I understand. I'm used to wait 3 or more months some times, Nick.
As for the bombers, when you put a 1/200 me-109 near a 1/144 Wellington you can see the difference I'll tell you.

But that's me, there are others that don't mind the scale difference.
I used to play 1/72 ww2 and when a tank was 1/76 sold as 1/72 I got angry...

**Barkmann** · 08-09-2014 12:36

Thanks Joaquim. I have a 1/144 Lancaster and a B-17, so i can't tell anything.

Nick

**Blackronin** · 08-09-2014 12:40

One uses what one's got.
When I start playing Wings of War WW1, I was considering using only 1/300 planes. I've bought 20 or so and then I've built one 1/144 paper Camel and hooked I was. I still have the 1/300 models waiting and bagged.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 08-09-2014 12:41

Originally Posted by Blackronin

I understand. I'm used to wait 3 or more months some times, Nick.
As for the bombers, when you put a 1/200 me-109 near a 1/144 Wellington you can see the difference I'll tell you.

But that's me, there are others that don't mind the scale difference.
I used to play 1/72 ww2 and when a tank was 1/76 sold as 1/72 I got angry...

You would think that with my mixing scales of ships for photographs it would not matter, but that is just for the effect of perspective.
To use 144 bombers I would have to put them in the foreground of every shot which would restrict the game too much.
i do not wish to sound ungrateful Nick, as it was very good of you to even take the trouble to find the bomber for me, but just as Quim says, in the case of scale I'm afraid that I am that anally retentive.

Rob.

**flash** · 08-21-2014 09:04

Found this Rob - used in the Med for 'special & secret' actions....

Spits on floats ! Just in case you want one in your inventory

**Barkmann** · 08-21-2014 09:10

Now what the heck is this?!?!? Spitfires on floats?!?!?? They are so beautiful.
Thanks

Nick

**OldGuy59** · 08-21-2014 09:13

Originally Posted by flash

Found this Rob - used in the Med for 'special & secret' actions....

Spits on floats ! Just in case you want one in your inventory

Not a surprise, if you consider the origin of the spitfire was this plane: Supermarine_S.6B

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**Lt. S.Kafloc** · 08-21-2014 09:39

On 12 October 1942 the Spitfire floatplane made its maiden flight from Southampton harbor and initial test flights showed the need for a larger ventral fin. After more modifications, the Spitfire floatplane prototype flew again in January 1943 from Glasgow, Scotland, on its first RAF service trials. Fully loaded, the Spitfire floatplane only weighed 1,100 lbs more and only suffered a 40mph reduction in maximum speed, being capable of 324 mph at 19,200 feet. With a rate of climb of 400 feet/minute, it was less than a stock Mk.V Spitfire, but acceptable to the RAF. Surprisingly, there was only a modest reduction in maneuverability and test pilots found the Spitfire floatplane more maneuverable than any other floatplane. Handing both in the air and on the water was found to relatively easy during the service trials. Other than having to compensate for the torque of the engine on the takeoff run by applying 1/3 to 1/2 rudder, the RAF test pilots felt that the Spitfire floatplane could be easily flown by line pilots.
In the summer of 1943, the RAF began planning for an operation that would utilize the Spitfire floatplane against the German garrisons on the Dodecanese Islands in the eastern Mediterranean off the coast of Turkey. Transport aircraft supplied the various garrisons and the plan was to use Spitfire floatplanes hiding at a small, uninhabited island in the area to attack the transport aircraft. A submarine would be used as a base and house the crews and between missions the Spitfire floatplanes would rest at their moorings next to the submarine under camouflage netting. Folland Aircraft was issued a contract to convert two more Spitfire Mk.Vs to floatplane configuration and after the flight testing of the two newer aircraft, all three three were partially disassembled and shipped to the RAF seaplane base at Fanara, Egypt, on the shores of the Great Bitter Lake. The prototype was found to have serious corrosion in the empannage and was set aside until Folland could ship a new tail to the base. The other two Spitfire floatplanes were assembled and test flown with the work finishing up in November 1943. Operational pilots were recruited from Spitfire crews assigned to the Middle East and they received brief seaplane conversion training on a Supermarine Walrus before converting to the Spitfire floatplanes. Four pilots underwent conversion training for the Dodecanese operation.

During training on the Egyptian lake, the pilots found that the floats leaked more than hoped and the aircraft had to be hauled out of the water to allow the floats to drain. Not an issue at a seaplane base, but at a submarine mooring on a small island in the Dodecanese Islands, it would be an issue. Pilots also found that the Spitfire floatplane only handling vice was trying to take off in crosswinds over 15 mph which was near impossible. Questions arose as to whether a suitable "secret" location could be found in the Dodecanese chain that would allow more flexible takeoffs. Discussions on the matter eventually proved to be moot as the Luftwaffe reinforced the area just a few weeks prior to the planned start of the operation. The four pilots were released back to their original Spitfire units and the three Spitfire Mk.V floatplanes were put in storage.

It wasn't quite the end of the story yet as during the spring of 1944 the idea of the Spitfire floatplane was re-examined for operations in the Pacific. Once again, the RAF asked Folland to convert a Spitfire and this time a powerful Mk.IX was chosen, making its first flight on 18 June 1944. With a more powerful engine, this version of the Spitfire floatplane could even outperform a standard land-based Hawker Hurricane. However, the pace of the war intervened again as the operational need faded and the Spitfire Mk.IX floatplane joined the other three Mk.V float planes in storage. Eventually all were scrapped, ending the story of a unique Spitfire variant that hearkened back to its roots as one of Reginald Mitchell's inspired Schneider Cup racing floatplanes.