is this a SPAD VII or XIII?
Cheers!
I'm planing on re-painting a SPAD after Cne Armand Pinsard, commander of SPA78.
Do any of you know if the SPAD depicted on the attached photo is a S.VII or an S.XIII? (website says S.XII but I'm sure that's wrong, so I'm guessing a S.XIII with a missing "I")
Additionally: there is also a reference of on of Pinsard's SPAD S.VII carrying the escadrille's leopard on yellow (see picture on the website). Do any of you know if Pinsard also had a black SPAD.XIII with a yellow leopard? thanks
I think that's a Spad VII, it looks small for the XIII and I can only see a single gun.
There was a Spad XII which was to mount a 37mm cannon but it was not a priority aircraft, Spad VII and XIII taking that.
That's my 2d anyway , hope it helps
What makes you so sure that's wrong? I haven't had the time to dig up info, but that looks like a center mounted single machine gun, which means it's not a XIII.Originally Posted by Gallo Rojo
I think it's unlikely that he had a SPAD XIII Panther, as that's a SPA78 insignia, and he spent the latter part of his WWI career commanding SPA23.
Sure looks like it is a XII to me - note the strut positioning in particular - very close to the leading edge of the lower wing, rather further back on the (slightly forward staggered) upper wing. It's definitely not a XIII - cabane struts are angled on that, so easily spotted, so it's VII or XII to decide between.
Yes I see what you mean about the struts Dom, also looking closer the MG looks to be more starboard than centre, which does suggests it is a XII as you say.
Looks like a SPAD VII to me, mainly because of the single MG. XIIIs didn't had single machine guns. By this single photo i could guess it is an VII.
Thanks
Nick
OK, just had a check of the references, and I was wrong - looks like it's a SPAD VII - the XII doesn't seem to have had the bulged fairings on the nose, just above the exhausts, which the VII and XIII did. Struts rule out a XIII, so VII for the win.
(As an afterthought, yes the gun is offset to the right, but that was normal on VIIs as well as XIIs - the offset was rather more marked on the XII, but even on the VII it was slightly to starboard of the centreline.)
Last edited by Dom S; 07-29-2014 at 15:17.
I though the Spad VII and XIII gun were central above the engine, with just the XII offset.
I shall have to go back and do some reading it seems
It's a pretty slight offset on the VII - much more pronounced on the XII. You can definitely see it here though.
http://www.mincbergr.net/uploads/ima...pad-vii-01.jpg
that's why I was pretty sure it wasn't a S.XII
Plus, the gun looks like a MMG, not a cannon (but I may be wrong on that)
so the consensus is that it was a S.VII
The gun is an MG, but would be on a SPAD XII too - the cannon was buried in the front fuselage, firing through the propellor hub, while it had a single Vickers MG on the top. The bulges settle it though.
So an SPAD S.XII had acutally two guns: the regular MMG and the Cannon?
Yes, that's right.
thanks!
do any of you know if there is any un-official guidance about what Damage Deck should be used by a SPAD S.XII? I'm guessing a combo of a B deck for the single MMG and .... what?
Definitely not both together - you fired one or the other. B deck for the MG, yep, not sure about the cannon - the consensus seems to be the C deck for the cannon, but given the difficulty of actually scoring a hit with it, I'd be tempted to only allow the cannon to fire when in the enemy's rear arc.
thanks Dom
It was a single shot cannon Ezekiel fired by a flexible bowden cable that was reloaded after each shot and they carried 10-12 rounds for it. Have a look here for more info.
Ground guns of similar type had a practical rof of 10rpm. That would be a round every 6 secs, so that would tie in nicely with a reload of 3 phases in game terms.
Guynemer's first victory with a SPAD XII was a two-seater Albatros 27 July 1917 (1 shells and 8 cartridges from Vickers), next a DFW two-seater (2 shells and 30 rounds Vickers).
Seems the cockpit filled with fumes when the cannon was fired so you might want to take that into account somehow.
Last edited by flash; 07-31-2014 at 11:24.
Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"
Spad VII, it might even be "Revanche IV" painted black.
I know this has been discussed earlier, probably in the house rules section.
Given that the gun is being reloaded by a pilot, flying a plane and choking on cordite fumes, reloading might take longer than 6 seconds.
If you go with 3 cards; they should be 3 straights, no shooting, and no tailing.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Maybe not allow use of the MG in the phase immediately after the cannon has been fired ?
Looks like the Vickers MG was used for ranging purposes so to limit the cannon fire you could set its use to firing only after a phase of MG fire, or, maybe even successful MG fire, though that may be a bit harsh.
This would give you a phase of MG firing, a phase of the cannon being fired and a phase of cockpit full of fumes and no firing/reloading.
Here is more discussion on the type with rule ideas:
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...85-SPAD-Cannon
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...85-SPAD-Cannon
The Stats show it as: SPAD XII 17Q1-Q418 / Mvr Deck S / Damage B+C / Hits 16 / Max Alt 12
Last edited by flash; 08-01-2014 at 08:09.
This is why I never trust Wiki:
From Wiki:
On 1 November 1916, he opened his victory roll in air combat. After a winter's layoff, he resumed his winning way on 23 January 1917, flying as Commanding Officer of Squadron N78.[7] He became an ace on 6 March, and would continue to fly Nieuports into battle until his 16th victory on 5 Jun 1917.[2]
Just one week later, Pinsard crashed and suffered serious injuries. He would be confined to hospital for several months. Upon his recovery, he was appointed commanding officer of Squadron Spa23. Pinsard was entrusted with the first Spad VII fighter to see combat, on 23 August 1917.[6] He painted it black and entitled it, "Revanche IV" (Revenge IV).[8]
1. He was assigned Spad VII (possible S.122) on 23 August 1916 and scored the first victory for the Spad VII on 26 Aug 1916.
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