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Thread: Captured Planes

  1. #1

    Default Captured Planes

    While hunting through the download section for custom plane cards I came across a Spitfire in German markings a Stuka in RAF colours.

    And it got me thinking what other captured planes were used? Did they have an impact in the war? Why were they used?

    I know from my days playing tank battles that the Russians used captured Panzer IV's and Tigers mainly due to the heavy losses suffered when Germany invaded but did the Russians also ustilise captured German planes? did the British/U.S use German/Japanese planes?

    Were these captured planes any better then the ones that country employed?

    This would be a great project and an opportunity to do some repaints for those who use the official minis. Or for the likes of me who use unofficial planes a nice painting change.

    Russians using British and U.S planes don't count as they were part of the lend lease agreement.

    I don't think there would be many of these planes in use due to the potential of friendly fire downing the planes. Considering most AA gun operaters used the planes silhouette's to identify friend or foe. But having one in your squadron would be fun.

    Alan

  2. #2

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    The German Spitfires were used for evaluation and what would now be termed aggressor training. The RAF Stuka (if it's the one I'm thinking of) was used for quite some time as a squadron hack in North Africa. (I seem to recall the Heinkel 111 now in the RAF museum at Hendon was captured and used as a hack by a USAAF unit.) In general those two were the usual fates of captured planes - if it was sufficiently modern to interest the powers that be, it would end up with an evaluation unit, while if it was older and/or a firmly "known" type, it might end up being retained as a squadron runabout until something they didn't have a spare for broke.

    Actual operational use of captured aircraft was exceedingly rare - the only unit that springs to mind is KG.200, which used a number of captured bombers, chiefly B-17s. These were sometimes used for supply drops behind enemy lines (when their provenance was of some help in not getting shot at so much) but they were pressed into service as much due to the shortage of long range German aircraft as for reasons relating to subterfuge.

  3. #3

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    I think using captured planes in front line service was something quite dangerous. Pilots often fired at the right looking silouette and did understandably didnt bother to check the markings. You could have got hit till you verify them after all. A spitfire looks rather distinctively, so why bother to check the markings if you know its a spitfire? ;-)

  4. #4

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    To be honest most ground troops were pretty appalling at telling friend or foe, and cheerfully shot at anything that came too close, so it might not be as big an issue as you might think - misidentification in a dogfight is a risk though. Spares and skilled maintenance are probably bigger issues, but really the biggest objection is that if a captured aircraft is cutting edge, the powers that be will want it for evaluation, while if it isn't, well, you probably don't want to go into combat in it....

    (Trying to think of examples of captured fighters used operationally, the only one that really springs to mind is the Dewoitine 520 - the Luftwaffe used it as an advanced trainer rather than in combat units, but when the Vichy air force was disbanded the Italians nicked 60 odd D.520s from Istres that were used as interceptors against US bomber raids - the chief draw being its 20mm cannon, which was rather more use against B-24s than the MG armament of contemporary Italian types. In this case, of course, the situation's a bit different, as we're not just talking about an odd captured plane or two, but a big enough pile of planes and spares to make actually issuing them as a unit's standard equipment feasible.)
    Last edited by Dom S; 07-26-2014 at 17:54.

  5. #5

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    Hmm, now I've found a Soviet squadron of FW.190 Doras.... Combat use extremely inlikely, but definitely looks like an operational squadron - the consensus seems to be a Baltic fleet unit....

    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...use-10815.html

  6. #6

  7. #7

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    Thx guys this us a great start. Once I am home from work will do a search and see what I can find.

    I know the Finns used a lot of captured Russian tanks might check out their airforce to see what they used. I do recall they had a number of Stukas and German bombers but I think they were attached to them rather then their own.

    You would have to be very brave or really stupid to fly a captured aircraft into combat. It would be a lot easier being in a captured tank with infantry around to help with being I.D then soaring through the clouds and hoping that your not shot down by your own forces.

    Alan

  8. #8

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    The Finns used whatever they could get hold of. http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/e4...df?MOD=AJPERES
    Last edited by Naharaht; 07-26-2014 at 20:12.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    To be honest most ground troops were pretty appalling at telling friend or foe, and cheerfully shot at anything that came too close, so it might not be as big an issue as you might think - misidentification in a dogfight is a risk though. Spares and skilled maintenance are probably bigger issues, but really the biggest objection is that if a captured aircraft is cutting edge, the powers that be will want it for evaluation, while if it isn't, well, you probably don't want to go into combat in it....
    Bear in mind, whether legit or not there was a perception from the ground that the flyboys would happily mow down anything that moved friend or foe, some AF's having a stronger rep of this than others...

    I don't know if this was fact or perception, but my Uncle Frank once told me that there was a mass groan among his entire unit every time they heard the day's Tac Air was RAF. Not saying Bader's buddies WERE triggerhappy maniacs, just that in some circles they were PERCEIVED that way.

    Of course when you got several tons of Panzer coming to ram a shell down your throat ya take ANY help ya can get... LOL

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    The Finns used whatever they could get hold of. http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/e4...df?MOD=AJPERES
    Dam now I want to make a Finnish Squadron. Back when I did FoW I played Finns mainly due to the mix of Russian and German armour plus the Finns have the best mountain fighters.

    Now I think a Finns project looks to be on the cards.

    Alan

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Bear in mind, whether legit or not there was a perception from the ground that the flyboys would happily mow down anything that moved friend or foe, some AF's having a stronger rep of this than others...
    Some things never change - 'cept the air force with the rep !

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I don't know if this was fact or perception, but my Uncle Frank once told me that there was a mass groan among his entire unit every time they heard the day's Tac Air was RAF. Not saying Bader's buddies WERE triggerhappy maniacs, just that in some circles they were PERCEIVED that way.

    Ha, from the British POV it was the USAAF that were the dangerous ones; as the old adage put it, when a plane appeared over the Normandy battlefield, everyone looked to see whose it was. If it was RAF, the Germans ran for cover, if it was Luftwaffe, the British ran for cover, and if it was USAAF, everyone ran for cover....

    Doubtless perception accounts for a lot, but I can only think of one nation whose highest-ranking casualty in WWII was the result of air attack by his own side.... (Mind you, the US tank force probably weren't too upset about it....)
    Last edited by Dom S; 07-27-2014 at 02:40.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    See what you did here, Dom?! Now I'll have to buy 4 P-40's and paint them as Japanese! Oh man! I don't have that kind of money to expend!
    (Starts singing an happy tune while decides where to get the P-40's...)

  14. #14

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    Don't forget to include this one, complete with preserved nose art....

    http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...fdefx75eww.jpg (Looks like an error by the artist on type - should be a P-40E.)

    Original:

    http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...0/japhawk3.jpg

  15. #15

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    Dom, I had already seem these.
    But I like the orange nose captured P-40´s.
    The P-40 is one of my favorite planes.

  16. #16

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    Here is a list of captured planes used by the R.A.F.: http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/Foreig...WIIService.cfm

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Here is a list of captured planes used by the R.A.F.: http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/Foreig...WIIService.cfm
    Thx heaps David will check that list out once I am home from work.

    Alan

  18. #18

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    Reference Book: _Foreign Planes In The Service Of The Luftwaffe_, Jean Louis Roba. Lots of pics, with some explanatory material.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Reference Book: _Foreign Planes In The Service Of The Luftwaffe_, Jean Louis Roba. Lots of pics, with some explanatory material.
    Book Depository has it listed for $32.95NZD next time my wife does a book order will add it.

    Looks like I will have two projects my German Squadron and my Finns the lad can have his Russians with both lend-lease planes and soviet built versions.

    Will be a fun few projects to research and paint up.

    [Added]
    Just had a brilliant idea this would make a great fathers day present from the kids

    Alan
    Last edited by Greywolf; 07-27-2014 at 14:28.

  20. #20

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    Offtopic, @ Dom: It also helps to consider that Uncle Frank was like THREE DAYS' worth ahead of the front line (and thus, three days' march behind enemy lines and in a Target Rich Environment with not a lot of friendlies around... and oh by the way, they were hunting SS too). O.O

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Offtopic, @ Dom: It also helps to consider that Uncle Frank was like THREE DAYS' worth ahead of the front line (and thus, three days' march behind enemy lines and in a Target Rich Environment with not a lot of friendlies around... and oh by the way, they were hunting SS too). O.O
    Sounds a bit like a Kelley's Heroes movie, but with an official hunting license.
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywolf View Post
    Book Depository has it listed for $32.95NZD next time my wife does a book order will add it.

    Looks like I will have two projects my German Squadron and my Finns the lad can have his Russians with both lend-lease planes and soviet built versions.

    Will be a fun few projects to research and paint up.

    [Added]
    Just had a brilliant idea this would make a great fathers day present from the kids

    Alan
    The Finn's will be a fun project; I have a number of unpainted planes for them to do.
    Search through Zoe Brain's postings; she has a number of Finnish planes in her stable.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  23. #23

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    Karl

    Thx I found her planes she has two Finn planes as far as I can she has a Buffalo but not sure on the 2nd planes.

    I think for my Finns I need to nail down whether I do a Winter War or Continuation War theme.
    But I think my starting point will be some Bf109's and some Buffalo's.
    Add in some Ju88's to the mix. Will do some research on my days off.

    Cheers
    Alan

  24. #24

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    Definitely continuation war then - the Finns had very little in service for the winter war - it was over before most of the newer aircraft were delivered.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywolf View Post
    I know the Finns used a lot of captured Russian tanks might check out their airforce to see what they used.
    Captured Russian or Lend-Lease aircraft that saw combat:

    1 Hurricane IIC (note - there were a number of ex-UK Hurri I's too)
    2 I-16 (1 I-16/18, 1 other)
    20 I-153 (half from the Germans)
    3 LaGG-3
    1 P-40M
    7 Pe-2
    1 Pe-3
    4 IL-4 (from Germany)
    11 DB-3M (early model IL-4)
    24 SB-2M (16 from Germany)
    4 Po-2
    (plus various seaplanes)
    More detail than you ever wanted to know about I-153s in Finnish service at http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/polikarpov_finland.htm

    Il-4 and LaGG-3


  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywolf View Post
    Karl

    Thx I found her planes she has two Finn planes as far as I can she has a Buffalo but not sure on the 2nd planes.

    I think for my Finns I need to nail down whether I do a Winter War or Continuation War theme.
    P-36 Hawk.
    Also... Ms406/410, Fiat Gr50, Do17, Ju88, Bf109G, for Winter War 30 Finnish and 12 Swedish Volunteer squadron Gladiator II...

    Numbers:
    Finland received 30 M.S.406's from France in 1940, and a further 57 captured M.S.'s were bought from Germany. After 1943, 40 M.S.'s were modified into Mörkö-Moranes with a more powerful engine.
    97 Blenheim I and IV- 75 Mk Is and 22 Mk IVs
    12 Hurricane I's from the UK in 1940 (too late for Winter War)
    42 captured Curtiss Hawk 75A's from the Germans, 29 from France and 13 from Norway.
    44 Brewster B-239 Buffaloes from the United States (too late for Winter War)
    35 Fiat G.50s from Italy
    97 Fokker D.XXIs, at least one of which was armed with 2 Madsen cannon (12 rds each though)


    Click image for larger version. 

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    157 Bf109G (48 G2-Trop, 109 G-6)
    15 Do17Z
    24 Ju88A4

    For Winter War - Gladiators, Ms406, G.50, D.XXI, Blenheim 1 only.

  27. #27

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    Thx heaps Zoe
    You have a very nice collection of planes.

    I think its going to be continuation war for me.
    My shopping list so far is looking like:
    6 Bf109's
    3 Brewsters
    1 Hurricane
    2 Ju88
    3 Blenheims

    I want to do some research and try and find a squadron that uses or could have used these planes. Find the pilots who flew them then find some talented person to make up some custom cards for me.

    Putting all of my other projects on hold so I can get this one started and get those birds in the air.

    Alan

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywolf View Post
    I want to do some research and try and find a squadron that uses or could have used these planes.
    Alan
    Lentolaivue 24, flying the Buffaloes, (although it later converted to 109Gs) was by far and away Finland's most famous and successful squadron. A summary of which squadrons were issued the various types can be found here:

    http://www.oocities.org/sturmvogel_66/Finnaf.html

  29. #29

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    A talented person to make some cards?!
    Well, I don't know... Can you give me a M?!

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    Lentolaivue 24, flying the Buffaloes, (although it later converted to 109Gs) was by far and away Finland's most famous and successful squadron. A summary of which squadrons were issued the various types can be found here:

    http://www.oocities.org/sturmvogel_66/Finnaf.html
    Dom that was a great read it gave me everything I need now to create my flight.
    Thx heaps this project is going to be loads of fun. Will check out Lv24 and see what else there is out there on the squadron.
    [Added]
    Found this:
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._2...dron_(Finland)
    deffinatley going for the Lv24, Lv31 squadrons, and I can add in Stukas from the German Jabo squadron that was attached to the Finns. Will add in the Blenheim as well for bombing runs.

    Alan
    Last edited by Greywolf; 07-28-2014 at 12:01.

  31. #31

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    You should be able to find a fair bit, and if you're so old-fashioned as to get books, the Osprey title on them is extremely good, not to mention packed with eye candy.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    You should be able to find a fair bit, and if you're so old-fashioned as to get books, the Osprey title on them is extremely good, not to mention packed with eye candy.
    Not old school I do use PDF's but i find flipping through a book can be easier.
    Plus the kids want to get a book for me.

    Alan

  33. #33

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    examples of Finn Planes:

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    any one keen to try and make some custom cards?

  34. #34

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    <- often wondered if the Beech Staggerwing could have been made into a fighter; and if so, how it would have performed...

  35. #35

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    I must move away from the Soviet-Finnish war...

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    I must move away from the Soviet-Finnish war...
    No!!! stay we need good pilots.....
    I love the Finns as they were greatly out numbered but they still fought on.
    If I ever get back into WWII armoured battles I will be fielding the Finns.

    Alan

  37. #37

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    I'm on the Spanish Civil War, BoB, Malta, Eastern Front, Pacific... You can't ask more from me, Alan, you can't!! I'm more overstretched than Rommel in 1943! I'm done... A man has his breaking point, Alan... Ah... Show me some more photos, please... The Finns had P-40?!... Just asking... Just asking...

  38. #38

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    The Brewster with the yellow bands are from Lv24 squadron (Lynx)
    Anyone keen to do up some cards for me?
    Famous Finnish pilots:
    Top 10 aces of No. 24 Squadron

    Ilmari Juutilainen: 94 victories, double Mannerheim Cross knight
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmari_Juutilainen

    Hans Wind: 75 victories, double Mannerheim Cross knight
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Wind

    Eino Luukkanen: 56 victories. Mannerheim cross winner.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eino_Luukkanen

    Olavi Puro: 36 victories.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olavi_Puro

    Nils Katajainen: 35.5 victories. Mannerheim cross winner.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nils_Katajainen

    Lauri Nissinen: 32.5 victories. Mannerheim cross winner. Killed in action
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_Nissinen

    Kyösti Karhila: 32 victories
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C3%B6sti_Karhila

    Jorma Karhunen: 31 victories. Mannerheim cross winner.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorma_Karhunen

    Emil Vesa: 29.5 victories.
    Tapio Järvi: 28.5 victories.

    Been a blast searching for info on these planes and pilots.

    I was reading an article about planes that could have been on the "top 10 worse WWII planes" funny thing the Brewster Buffalo and P-39 were on the list as not performing up to expectations when used by the U.S ( the reasoning behind the lack of performance was based on victories vs losses)

    Yet the Brewster was held to a high regard by the Finns and the Russians enjoyed great effectiveness with the P-39's.
    I think the reason the Finns were able to hold out against the Russians were not due to the machines they flew but the pilots who flew them. While the Russians who had a huge amount of planes had very inexperienced crews and couldn't hit the side of a barn in broad daylight at 50m.

    In fact more times then not the Russian pilots would not engage the Finns as most encounters were in the Finns favour.

    Will continue to dig out other planes that were captured and used against their original owners.

    Alan

  39. #39

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    This was to have been my project for next year but I've plumped for the Med theater. Perhaps 2016.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    I'm on the Spanish Civil War, BoB, Malta, Eastern Front, Pacific... You can't ask more from me, Alan, you can't!! I'm more overstretched than Rommel in 1943! I'm done... A man has his breaking point, Alan... Ah... Show me some more photos, please... The Finns had P-40?!... Just asking... Just asking...
    Just for you: captured Planes and British purchased.
    P-40 (Captured)
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    Soviet PE-2 (Captured)
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    Blenheim (British Purchased)
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    Gladiator
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    Hurricane
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    Alan

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    This was to have been my project for next year but I've plumped for the Med theater. Perhaps 2016.
    Meditraian theatre is not one of my strong points. Who are you flying in that area?

    One area I have never been interested in is the Pacific theatre even though its in my neck of the woods. Not sure why maybe due to not wanting to fly Japanese planes. For me as a young fella and now much older has been the Eastern front and the Soviet-Finn wars.

    Alan

  42. #42

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    What are you doing, Alan?!
    What are you doing to me?!
    Don't you know that I already have to buy a squadron of P-40's for the Japanese?
    In the beginning I only needed 4 P-40's for my Americans in the Pacific.
    Then I got my French P-40's that were begging me to enter the Battle of France. So I had to change History for them to have a go at it.
    Then the Flying Tigers were screaming for action...
    And in North Africa they were making wonders...
    Now will I have to enter the fray in Finland?! I'm Fin... I'm Finished...

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    What are you doing, Alan?!
    What are you doing to me?!
    Don't you know that I already have to buy a squadron of P-40's for the Japanese?
    In the beginning I only needed 4 P-40's for my Americans in the Pacific.
    Then I got my French P-40's that were begging me to enter the Battle of France. So I had to change History for them to have a go at it.
    Then the Flying Tigers were screaming for action...
    And in North Africa they were making wonders...
    Now will I have to enter the fray in Finland?! I'm Fin... I'm Finished...


    This one thread is going to grow into a monster of a project. My shopping list is getting longer by the minute.

    With son being an inexperienced pilot it will be exactly how the Russians were during this conflict. So being out numbered and out gunned will be off set.

    Really looking forward to getting this under way. So come on and join in on the Finn fun.

    Alan

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywolf View Post
    I was reading an article about planes that could have been on the "top 10 worse WWII planes" funny thing the Brewster Buffalo and P-39 were on the list as not performing up to expectations when used by the U.S ( the reasoning behind the lack of performance was based on victories vs losses)

    Yet the Brewster was held to a high regard by the Finns and the Russians enjoyed great effectiveness with the P-39's.
    The Finns figured out to strip a lot of unnecessary stuff off the Buffalo, which did wonders for its performance. The Russians figured out the P-39 was never going to be a brilliant fighter, so they used it as an attack plane which could serve as a fighter if needed as the Lady Popova so eloquently phrased it: "It worked").

  45. #45

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    It would be interesting see what other planes were utilised better by foreign nations then those who built them.

    Trying to locate some 1/144 Brewsters but nothing local so far.

    Would the stats of the Brewster change due to alterations cones by the Finns?

    Alan

  46. #46

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    Buffalo stats should vary wildly depending on the model and user - there was a worryingly detailed discussion on it a while back, which I think is reflected in the stats committees figures for the Buffalo. Broadly speaking, the earlier the model, the better it was (and the Finns got the first lot....) Over time it was weighed down by more and more "essentials" that proved utterly counterproductive - the extra weight of armour, self-sealing tanks etc. meant they did far more harm than good.

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...120#post165120
    Last edited by Dom S; 07-31-2014 at 15:45.

  47. #47

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    PS for 1/144 Buffs, the most readily available option is probably True North.

    http://www.oldglory25s.com/index.php...atname=&#39;US'

    It's also popped up as an F-Toys gashopon model before, but no idea how easy or otherwise that is to get hold of.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    PS for 1/144 Buffs, the most readily available option is probably True North.

    http://www.oldglory25s.com/index.php...atname=&#39;US'

    It's also popped up as an F-Toys gashopon model before, but no idea how easy or otherwise that is to get hold of.
    I went to the site and did a test run to see how much postage is:

    3x Buffalo's $27USD
    International postage $65.95USD

    AHHH MMMM Well ain't going to happen.
    Back to the drawing board.

    Alan
    Last edited by Greywolf; 07-31-2014 at 19:27.

  49. #49

    Dom S's Avatar
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    Dom
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    See the "shipping" page - the online calculator defaults to using flat rate boxes, which is massive overkill here - if you give them a call or email, I'm sure they can sort you out.

  50. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    See the "shipping" page - the online calculator defaults to using flat rate boxes, which is massive overkill here - if you give them a call or email, I'm sure they can sort you out.
    I read the shipping page most what I got from it was he would charge u the amount if you paid by PayPal and refund the difference if it was cheaper or charge your credit card the correct amount.

    Will send and email to see what response I get.

    Alan

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