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Thread: MH-17 and what? Do you care? I am not sure.

  1. #1

    Default MH-17 and what? Do you care? I am not sure.

    I just can not believe that. Such a tragedy and not a thread? No religion nor politics, right? You feel right? Congrats.
    B 17s and Lancasters are on show. 80 children killed in the air by Ru...n bandits are not that interesting?
    I HATE!!!!!!! that.
    I am a senior member. Or I am not. Forgive me that. Ban my thread, guys, no matter.
    A Spit buried in Burma or a Dornier sunk in the Baltic Sea is a news. A plane shot down by a gang of Ru...s and 80 kids killed are not!
    I kept silent for 24 hours waiting. No one mentioned that. Or I missed a thread. Are you serious?
    Are we a band of brothers? I do not believe we are any more.
    Politics? NO. An aggression. You do not see that, right? Oh Ban this thread, Herr Oberst and I am out of business. No matter.

    We HERE are out in the middle of nowhere for you out there, but Mordor is coming. Feel that. You will face that, sooner or later.

    Just ban this thread, if you please. Then I am out of this for sure.

    Sorry for being furious.
    Andrzej.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  2. #2

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    My prayers are with the family and friends of all those who suffered.

  3. #3

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    Greetings Andrzej! I completely agree with you, I am never quite sure what becomes proper or polite, but this event is one of several over there in the past few years that has greatly disturbed me. I cannot imagine the memories and pain your country and others in the area must be remembering-it was not that long ago for your country to see the same kinds of events occurring. I have lost contact with some old time friends in the Ukraine and can only wonder where they are now. I would really like to talk this over, maybe it is better by PM, but I have to know your thoughts and worries. History is history and the events and tyrants are still among us. Our prayers and support are with you always! Dave

  4. #4

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    Andrzej,

    This is a huge topic where I work as I have the pleasure of working with two Polish citizens and a Ukrainian and if you are a student of history you'll be very worried about the events that are unfolding in Eastern Europe, I know for a fact that the people of Poland do not believe that the crash in 10 April 2010 that killed the Polish President was an accident so I can understand how this is alarming.

    However I agree with David, it is hard to know what is proper conduct as we have members from all over the world and regardless of race colour or creed we probably all agree that the death of the innocent is a bitter pill to swallow.

    I sincerely hope that those responsible are brought to justice while those in power do everything to stop the escalation of what could become the start of another world war.
    Last edited by FarEast; 07-18-2014 at 16:53.

  5. #5

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    Its a hard thing to address Andy, and while any kind of acknowledgement here would be proper, I understand Keith' objective to keep this forum free of politics and religion. There are many forums available to address topics like that. This subject certainly can be addressed here without infusing politics or religion into the discussion in my opinion. I will admit that your post was the first I've heard of this heinous act. I would not view the lack of a thread or post here on this subject as a sign of indifference or lack of caring. As a long time member here I would hope you know that. Being here only a very short period of time, I have seen caring, helping, kindness, and support in the vast majority of the members here. I think though, that this forum may just be a place to come to not think about the cruelty and evil that seems so prevalent in our world today. Once again, I would not see the lack of discussion here as an indictment of the membership. I will be praying for all those who lost loved ones in this horrific act.

  6. #6

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    This is the first I'm hearing about it as well! I almost never watch the news anymore and on busy weeks like this one, almost no TV at all.

    Actions like these and the men that commit them should be condemned by the entire world. My heart and thoughts go out to the families of the victims.

    I also feel your pain and anger brother. Know that many of us are with you in spirit if not physically. While this tragic event is politically charged, are discussion of it here does not have to be. Let us make it about those that were lost and how they will be remembered.

  7. #7

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    Thanks Andrzej to bring this topic online on our loved forum.
    I agree with you and everyone about not bringing politics and religions on a place like this. I do have to admit that i heard on the news that a plane was shot down by the Ru...., but unfortunately almost all time of the news were dedicated to the World Cup (tipically brazilian: focusing on little matter things). But i appreciate your thread and i think that the community should bring topics based on tragedy (even i, in my times of Nick_ace posted a thread about one). This conflict in eastern europe is getting complicated, so i like when people post comments about it. I dedicate thoughs, prays and my heart to them.

    Nick

  8. #8

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    My Dear Friend Andrzej,

    Please do not apologize for being angry, angry at this event and the senseless loss of life, angry at what this event could signify for the future, and angry at our silence. For many of us, this site is more than a platform to discuss gaming; it is a community. Whether community was initially intended, it is, now, a significant aspect of our time here. So you have space, dear Andrzej, to express your disappointment and anger.

    I am not sure why we have been silent in sharing with each other the horror of this event, and as a community expressing our outrage and sorrow. In a world in which causing offense is a cardinal sin, in which tolerance has been redefined to validating all viewpoints as equal in value, in truth, in beauty, in good, we have lost some measure of ability in discussing such events as this criminal act, and in doing so free from fear, free from censure. There are events that should transcend national, even ideological, lines. I state should, but unfortunately, some ideologies celebrate that which is an affront to, and violation of, our shared humanity. I believe this tragedy is one such transcending event that should sadden and anger all of us, and one of which we can publicly express our heartfelt concern for the victims and their survivors without violating our community's norms. If any fear of reprisal, either from administrators or fellow members, was the cause of our silence, that would be a sad indeed. If our silence stemmed from lack of care, that would be an indictment against our humanity. I hope our silence stemmed from other, less ignoble, reasons.

    For the families and friends of those who were killed, I pray, in time, they find some measure of healing and peace.

    For those who committed this heinous act, I pray they receive what justice demands.

    For the rest of us, whether in power or not, I pray we recognize and acknowledge the reality that there are individuals and systems that work against the common good, and that we respond with the wisdom necessary for a better world.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

  9. #9

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    hi Andrzej. its not that i (and i presume others) are indifferent to the heinous nature of this act. its just that i consider this site, as a gaming pastime site, a haven from the trouble so rampant in the world today and try my best to keep the madness at bay.

    also for many americans including myself (and many others as evidenced by what i see and hear) are somewhat emotionally numbed of late. weve had quite a bit of bad news for quite awhile now and it takes a toll emotionally. its not that i dont care. in fact im outraged by the general course of events in that region (especially as an historian) but i find it hard to arouse much emotion about any sort of tragedy of late. i seem to vacillate between being a news junkie and shunning it.

    and speaking of news another factor is our news media in the us. lately it is more about presenting a "dog and pony show" to distract people from the excesses of certain politicians than being "fair and balanced" (if it ever was). and lets face it US news media has never been a bastion of a balanced world view when comes to international happenings. i try to seek other sources such as BBC america but even that is becoming more and more like US media and is anything but balanced.

    in any case rest assured i empathize with your pain and outrage even if i dont express it immediately. feel free to PM me if you need to vent or just want someone to talk to.

    as for mordor rising ive known it since 9-11-01 and the intervening years have done nothing to dissuade or redirect my feelings. i often liken my feelings to friends as to what an average roman citizen must have felt when from, atop one of the 7 hills, he saw the massing barbarian hoards "is this the end of all ive known, is there nothing i can do to change that?"

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by prymus View Post
    Its a hard thing to address Andy, and while any kind of acknowledgement here would be proper, I understand Keith' objective to keep this forum free of politics and religion. There are many forums available to address topics like that. This subject certainly can be addressed here without infusing politics or religion into the discussion in my opinion. I will admit that your post was the first I've heard of this heinous act. I would not view the lack of a thread or post here on this subject as a sign of indifference or lack of caring. As a long time member here I would hope you know that. Being here only a very short period of time, I have seen caring, helping, kindness, and support in the vast majority of the members here. I think though, that this forum may just be a place to come to not think about the cruelty and evil that seems so prevalent in our world today. Once again, I would not see the lack of discussion here as an indictment of the membership. I will be praying for all those who lost loved ones in this horrific act.
    I am always short of words so what prymus has stated I agree with.

  11. #11

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    Personally I'd prefer not to see things like this discussed here (especially when the circumstances have not been established - the situation is considerably more murky than is generally being reported). The internet is awash with understandable outpourings of grief and anger, I find it nice to find little spots of calm away from it all for a few minutes respite. The alternative is, I feel, that this site and others like it will descend into acrimony and anger like so many others have. And where do you draw the line? I'm sure the numbers of dead and maimed civilians and children in Gaza, or the recent massacre in Nigeria makes some angry and upset too.

    So whilst I appreciate the feeling (and in this case I've been touched lightly by this dreadful incident), please take it elsewhere.

  12. #12

    Angry

    I only just picked up on this via Facebook as I, like Keith, try to avoid TV news as it is always full of terrible things & never any good stories.
    I do however deplore such a wanton act by whoever was the perpetrator, Russia or the Rebels.
    I sincerely hope the International Community seeks a full investigation & brings to Justice those responsible.
    As our Prime Minister stated "That was an act of Murder against almost 300 innocent people & children".

  13. #13

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    I am with you Andy, this is truly tragic. I pray for the families and their loss. I know there is evil in the world and hope. Thank you for waking us up.

    Thomas

  14. #14

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    Dear Andy, I've always been for speaking our minds up everywhere.
    I don't agree with the ban of politics or religion in the Aerodrome but I respect it because I was always taught to respect the house of my neighbor.
    That was the reason I spoke not here of this event. I spoke of it in other places.
    I wrote to my friends in Ukraine and probably a couple of friends will come to Portugal to live as they are terribly afraid.

    I'm glad you said your mind. I fully agree with your rage and I really don't know what will come out of it.

    I hate trolls and trolling and that's why I love the aerodrome so much. With a few exceptions nobody has any patience for trolling and we tend to soften heated discussions. But this is different. It's not politics or religion. It's loss. It's mourning for innocents and we all here are comrades when it comes to loss and mourning, so you can have your say and we should all be enraged and sad and mourning.

    Take this embrace from Portugal, dear Andy, I'm mourning with you.

  15. #15

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    As I read these posts, I am torn between what Andy says, and the need to keep things in proportion. I believe that we as a community sometimes need to speak out on issues which effect us all. If we do not it is a victory for evil, no matter how small.
    As several of you know some of my ancestors are Dutch, and it is that Nation which bears the greatest loss.
    The nearest people who were killed to my home came from villages south of Notts.
    All of us here are sensible and rational people. With the safeguards that Keith has established, I do not feel that we should fear the repercussions of simply expressing our outrage about such an abhorrent act of murder of innocent people. To let it go unremarked is simply condoning yet another act of savagery.
    I am almost totally with Andy in his statement, excepting that I for one did not speak out because I still have not got over the feeling of sickness and impotence to do anything to redress this crime against humanity.
    We can only pray for those suffering because of it.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  16. #16

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    I do not think that, IMHO, Andrzej comments were or are or were meant to be political. Just an outpouring of anger over a senseless act in which, again, the innocent have suffered great loss.

    My thoughts and prayers, and I am sure I echo everyone else', go out to the families and friends who have suffered a loss in this atrocity.

    Neil
    See you on the Dark Side......

  17. #17

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    I find I can't type a reply to this that won't at least risk hurt feelings and people taking my reply the wrong way. So I've deleted my many attempts, and would respectfully suggest that is precisely why this is no place for the discussion of life's horrors. There are plenty of relevant fora where opinions can be aired and spleens vented, but this has always been a refuge from them, and is the better for it; discussing life's horrors here won't make the world any better, it'll just lead to divisive discussions and hurt feelings here as well.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    hi Andrzej. its not that i (and i presume others) are indifferent to the heinous nature of this act. its just that i consider this site, as a gaming pastime site, a haven from the trouble so rampant in the world today and try my best to keep the madness at bay.

    ...

    in any case rest assured i empathize with your pain and outrage even if i dont express it immediately.

    ...
    Andrzej,
    I choose not to post about this madness on our forum. I am stunned and horrified by what happened, and cannot see how this helps anyone's position in the Ukranian conflict. I desperately await answers, and hope for justice. I'm also desperately afraid this will just draw in more opponents and bigger devastation to a struggling and suffering country.

    I just didn't want to share this seathing pit of negative emotions on this forum.

    Mike

  19. #19

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    This event is an abhorrent crime without doubt and we all hope that those responsible are identified and dealt with but I agree with the reasoning of DM and Dom about discussing it on the forum.

    "He is wise who watches"

  20. #20

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    I have a small Ukrainian flag in my house because that is where one side of my family is from. The other one is a Slovak flag. I will only say as others have that prayers and thoughts go out to all that were lost in this tragic "incident".

  21. #21

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    Boss-fella says "NO RELIGION OR POLITICS". That's enough for me.

  22. #22

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    ...and that's it.

    No Religions - No Politics.

    I'm content that we draw a line after 1945 for poilitcal discussions.

    Sometimes you can see suggestions of the the trenches of political opinions here. That's ok - but it's enough, too.



    It's a damn tragedy what happenend over Donezk Andrzej and it moves me, too.

    Let's see what will be published about this shootig of a civilian passenger plane. What factors lead to the shotdown of this flight or was the Malaysian Airline jet just a random victim? (Means was this possible for a Lufthansa flight or a British Airways flight, too?)

    Mostly I'm surprised that the flight routes are that close to the insurgence region, beside the fact that we heared the whole time that the Ukrainian army loose helicopters, fighters and transport planes there.


    For the political aspect.

    We (and I mean Germany in special) left Eastern Europe once to the Russians. That will not happen a second time. The line of defense is clear for me at the moment. (EU border)

    On the other hand I don't feel that states like the Ukraine, Moldau, White Russia or Georgia are part of Europe at the moment, ruled by oligarchs or a semi dictatorship.



    How to punish Russia - trading partner of great parts of the EU and delivery man of needed resources?

    Who and what heats the homes of hundreds of thousand families in South East Europe, when there is no more gas from Russia. French electricity generated by nuclear power?

    Where to get all the needed resources then? From China? ...or the Middle East? (There are no EU air craft carriers there. )

    What will happen to Russia if there is no more cash from the EU and the USA?



    I hope the responsible persons will finish this local conflict as soon as possible. The EU can't throw everything in a conflict like this. (Remember what happened 2008 in the Kaukasus, when a Georgian president thought he can mess with Russia with his option of a NATO membership.)

    Russia secured what it wanted: The Crimea.

    I don't think Russia will stress itself with another region like Chechnya if it conquers the Eastern Ukraine.
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 07-20-2014 at 01:56.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  23. #23

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    Please accept my apology for the turmoil in the site I had initiated, friends.
    I strongly support the No Religion No Politics rule here, but just could not (psychologically) get along and pass by this tragic event and wanted to share my feelings with you.
    You are the community I appreciate very much and I feel there is no better place to exchange thoughts.
    Once again, forgive me the emotional explosion of mine, this shall never happen again.
    Andy.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  24. #24

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    Andy, for me no apologies needed.
    Welcome back.

  25. #25

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    What's to apologies for Andy.

    You were just expressing your emotions. Sometimes it's good to get them out in the open.

    And this from an Englishman! Whatever next.Quick supply me with a new stiff upper lip.

    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    I strongly support the No Religion No Politics rule here, but just could not (psychologically) get along and pass by this tragic event and wanted to share my feelings with you.
    Understood. No apology needed. The rule is good, even essential, but should a time come when it cannot be obeyed, we have to suspend it temporarily, on a strictly limited basis.
    This was such a time.
    May it never happen again.

  27. #27

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    Dear Andrzej,

    All of us who know you are glad you were able to share with us your feelings. Being there for each other in times like this is what it means to be wingmen.

    We have your six,
    Eric
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

  28. #28

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    No need to apologize. This is what's family is for. And, you, like everyone here, is family to me.
    Last edited by Black Sheep One; 07-21-2014 at 05:27.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Please accept my apology for the turmoil in the site I had initiated, friends.
    I strongly support the No Religion No Politics rule here, but just could not (psychologically) get along and pass by this tragic event and wanted to share my feelings with you.
    You are the community I appreciate very much and I feel there is no better place to exchange thoughts.
    Once again, forgive me the emotional explosion of mine, this shall never happen again.
    Andy.
    no need to apologize andy, sometimes with such a heinous act rules should be bent to remind us all whats important in life.

    i guess i should thank you for shaking me out of my emotional lethargy. i didnt realize how cocooned id become plodding along with my head down.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Please accept my apology for the turmoil in the site I had initiated
    Andrzej, you dont need to apologize for anything. Being angry with an act like that is normal and comprehensive, and besides, is good to express your feelings sometimes. Thanks.

    Nick



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