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Thread: More realistic treatment of control and fire damage?

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    Default More realistic treatment of control and fire damage?

    REALISTIC DAMAGE

    One of the issues I have with Wings of War/Glory is the unrealistic nature of the damage - in particular the treatment of control surface damage and fires. Damage to the control surfaces simply could not repair itself during the course of a mission while any fires soon ran out of control in any aircraft made of doped linen and wood. WIth an aircraft made of those materials - in a 100 mph blast of wind and assisted by petrol - your chances of putting a fire out roughly equal a snowball's best prospects in Hades !

    I have been pondering this and have come up with this...

    CONTROL DAMAGE (left and right):
    First hit on one side - lose tightest turn and sideslip abilities on that side only. Widest turn cards remain.
    Second hit same side - lose all turning ability and sideslips on that side for the rest of the game.

    If first hits occur on both sides, both cards are effective. When both sides are hit once, any second hit on either side and you lose the ability to loop up or down plus the stall turn ability. You are now turning in one direction only. If over diving, you must turn an 'A' damage card to recover. All points damage on the card is effective. Ignore special damages and gun jams.

    If both sides of the aircraft take 'second hits' then the controls promptly collapse and the aircraft drops out of the sky like a brick.
    None of this damage may be repaired in flight, it is all permanent.

    SMOKE:
    There is no smoke without fire, if an aircraft is smoking then something is getting very hot somewhere. Aircraft which smoke take three smoke tokens and can expend one token at the end of each turn ONLY by playing a sideslip, dive or over dive card during that turn. Each move of smoking, turn one 'B' card. All card damage is effective except gun jams - if a wound card appears, it is the crewman nearest the engine. The wound may be ignored only if the aeroplane played a sideslip during the turn, this will drive the flames sideways, away from the cockpit.
    Any second smoke card turned, while already smoking, and the smoke turns into FIRE.

    If a pilot lands a smoking aeroplane he/she may escape it without further hazard.

    NOTE: in pusher-engined aircraft such as the DH2 or twin-engined aircraft all crew wounds from 'smoke' ONLY may be ignored. It is a small fire being driven backwards by the pusher engine.

    FIRE:
    This is serious and will get out of hand very quickly. There are no fire tokens. At the end of each turn the fire burns, turn one 'A' card and apply all damage at the end of the move. Ignore gun jams. If there is a crew wound, it is the crewman nearest the fire who is wounded. The wound may be ignored only if the aeroplane played a sideslip during the turn, this will drive the flames away from the cockpit.
    If the burning aircraft made a sideslip or simple dive during the turn, any '5 or '4' on the special fire damage card means the fire has gone out. Ignore those last 4 or 5 points of actual damage and ignore any related special damage. Any '0' or 1, 2 or 3 points and the fire burns on. All damage applies except gun jams. If a wound occurs, it is the nearest crew member who is wounded but this is ignored if a sideslip was played.
    If the aircraft over dives it turns one special 'A' card, any '5', '4' or '3' puts the fire out and halts all fire damage immediately. All card damage applies except gun jams. Any crew wound turned during the over dive applies as the flames were being driven straight back into the cockpit. This is a high risk strategy.

    If a pilot lands a burning aeroplane he/she may escape it. However one 'A' card is turned on landing. A 'boom' card means the aeroplane blew up on landing while a crew wound is effective on the nearest crewman.

    NOTE: in pusher-engined aircraft such as the DH2, FE2 or any twin-engined aircraft, the first crew wound from fire may be ignored. All later cards apply.

    Any aircraft which puts out a fire must attempt to either land (if over friendly territory) or leave its own baseline immediately. It is out of the game if it can reach safety. No sane WW1 pilot would attempt to fight-on in an aeroplane which had already suffered a fire as there was too much chance of it re-igniting from leaking fuel. There is almost certainly petrol leaking somewhere and engine heat, gun flashes or exhaust flames could easily re-ignite it.
    Last edited by 'Warspite'; 10-24-2014 at 04:15.

  2. #2

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    This system is OK and will bring reality to the game. But, I wouldn't ignore jammed MGs. They can get unreachable for any reason (for some time or till the end).

    I would have some remarks about downsides, if you don't mind.

    First, this system means plane could be heavily crippled early during the game. For players (booth shooter and shot) it could be a bit frustrating, specially in smaller games. In bigger games, I guess it should work.

    Second (and most serious), this would bring disbalance to damage decks, making flame occur twice more than usual.

  3. #3

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    Your points are all correct.
    My background is in early 1970s aerial wargaming using 1/72 scale models on wooden poles. Our rules were written for strict realism and not necessarily just to provide a good game. One of the best fights I ever had was when I was outnumbered two to one with a wounded rear gunner who could not fire back. I was flying a Roland C-II. This wasn't a game, it was war. I managed to not only survive against two Allied fighters and get my damaged aircraft back to my own lines, I even managed to get a couple of shots at them with my front gun (they overshot when I stalled!). I didn't shoot anything down but I outmanoeuvred them for 25 moves and I scored the ultimate victory… I survived!

    Unfortunately damage which repairs itself in flight is a myth created by the present rules. As an aircraft accumulates points and special damage the pilot must either decide to leave the scene or fight-on in a damaged machine. If the player is flying 'in character' and is risking an experienced pilot with a missions and kills history and back story, does the player quit and leave his friends to fight without him because his aircraft is damaged? Or does he/she fight-on and risk their favourite pilot in a damaged machine to save their friends. It may not be 'game' but it is 'war'. We begin to replicate the decisions and emotions the real pilots had to confront.

    Barry


    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    This system is OK and will bring reality to the game. But, I wouldn't ignore jammed MGs. They can get unreachable for any reason (for some time or till the end).

    I would have some remarks about downsides, if you don't mind.

    First, this system means plane could be heavily crippled early during the game. For players (booth shooter and shot) it could be a bit frustrating, specially in smaller games. In bigger games, I guess it should work.

    Second (and most serious), this would bring disbalance to damage decks, making flame occur twice more than usual.

  4. #4

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    Some interesting ideas there Barry - How has it affected games in play testing ?
    Ah, seems my question is already answered...!
    Last edited by flash; 06-29-2014 at 03:59. Reason: Question answered

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Some interesting ideas there Barry - How has it affected games in play testing ?
    Ah, seems my question is already answered...!
    I can't see an answer to your question.
    The few tests I have carried out so far have been 'interesting'.
    So I am now sharing the ideas with the world - or at least other players.

  6. #6

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    These are very similar to some of my own House Rules that I use in my solo games. I revert to Rules as Written (or other established House Rules) when flying with others. I don't have any problem with increased "realism" when it's for my own enjoyment.

    Rudder Damage:
    After drawing any Rudder Damage Cards remove all remaining maneuver cards, excluding any current planned maneuvers, which have the same turn indicator as the rudder damage (Left or Right). Shuffle these together and draw one card. This card is then removed from the available maneuvers for the remainder of this game.

    Smoke:
    Once an aircraft starts Smoking it will continue to do so for the rest of the game unless another special effect changes the situation. Place a Smoke counter on the aircraft card or miniature so that all players can see the effect. The player must draw one A Damage Card at the beginning of each Game Turn after all maneuvers are selected. Damage Cards that have the Fire, Engine Damage, and Explosion cards all have their normal results. All other cards are returned to the deck. Ignore all damage points. The Pilot of a smoking aircraft may not use the Tailing Skill.

    Fire:
    Once a aircraft is on fire will continue to burn until it runs out of damage points, crashes, explodes, or by some lucky chance the fire turns into Smoke. Place a Fire counter on the aircraft card or miniature so that all players can see the effect. The player must draw one A Damage Card at the beginning of each Game Turn after all maneuvers are selected. The damage amount on the card is immediately applied to the aircraft. The Fire, Gun Jam, and Rudder Jam Special Damages are ignored; however Engine Damage, Crew Member Hit and Explosion Special Damages have their normal results. The Smoke Special damage means the Fire has gone out and the aircraft is now only Smoking, exchange the Fire counter for a Smoke counter, and revert to the Smoking rule. The Pilot of an aircraft that is on fire may not use the Tailing Skill. Single engine aircraft must plan only non-straight maneuvers for the duration of the fire. An aircraft that is on fire may attempt to extinguish the flames by Over Diving or Side-Slipping maneuvers. After an Over Dive or Side-Slip maneuver, roll 2d6; success with 10+ and flames have been extinguished and the aircraft is now only smoking.

  7. #7

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    Some good ideas there for solo gaming or for club campaigns for added realism. Have to give them a go first before commenting further though.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by 'Warspite' View Post
    I can't see an answer to your question....
    I got your ethos: "This wasn't a game, it was war" - There is no 'game' play so the added realism can only make it better !

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's a bad thing - I like it !
    Taking god-like control of the player out of games and leaving things to chance is what makes it interesting to me.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I got your ethos: "This wasn't a game, it was war" - There is no 'game' play so the added realism can only make it better !

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's a bad thing - I like it !
    Taking god-like control of the player out of games and leaving things to chance is what makes it interesting to me.

    Bless you! I think we are working out of the same rule book.

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    I've used some alternatives for critical hits and dealt with control damage by including these results: you have to do a straight manuver between consecutive turns in the same direction (controls damaged); you have to do a straight before turning in the opposite direction (controls damaged), and being prohibited from doing steep manuvers other than a stall (structs shattered). The idea was to make the plane less manuverable after taking a critical hit and have the effect last throughout the game.

  11. #11

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    I always use the remove one card from the deck for rudder damage. If it occurs on the same side again another card goes and so on. If you get fire damage as often as I do, also having a couple of turns missing from your deck, and not being able to fly straight can lead to some very awkward situations. I would make a dive or sideslip mandatory for any aircraft on fire, now that I have seen it suggested and apply the A card rule at the end of it. i almost invariably overdive if on fire, and it is surprising how often it pays off. it also effectively takes you out of the game, because no one is going to follow you down, and then spend the next umpteen game turns climbing back up to get into the fight again.
    So in short, a great idea Barry, and I will certainly modify my games to take some of your ideas on board.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  12. #12

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    I never did like the auto-fix portion of the game.

    If the plane is on fire it stays on fire until a 0 card is drawn for fire damage. Fire can cause additional damage except gun jams. If you are on fire your main concern is the fire so you should not be able to shoot or go straight except to dive. No chits needed.

    I always use the remove one card from the deck for rudder damage. Like Kyte but if the Rudder damage is two remove two cards. Actually this makes it so much simpler and less chits to play with.

    Smoke the same as written by my good friend "Horse". Once again no chits needed.

  13. #13

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    I agree John.
    I do all I can to avoid chits.
    Incidentally I also make the drawing of rudder damage cards cumulative and if I am feeling really masochistic I take one of each kind of turn to that side when I draw the damage card.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I agree John.
    I do all I can to avoid chits.
    Incidentally I also make the drawing of rudder damage cards cumulative and if I am feeling really masochistic I take one of each kind of turn to that side when I draw the damage card.
    Rob.
    That is very masochistic.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by 'Warspite' View Post
    One of the issues I have with Wings of War/Glory is the unrealistic nature of the damage - in particular the treatment of control surface damage and fires. Damage to the control surfaces simply could not repair itself during the course of a mission ...
    It really depends on the damage and what caused the jam. If a shattered fuselage former threw chips into a grommet for a control cable, it could restrict movement for a few seconds, or even minutes. Moving the joystick might dislodge the chip, or repeated attempts to move the controls can "saw" through a piece of wood jamming a control.

    I have been part of a repair team that fixed a control cable that sawed through a metal former on a jet that was improperly rigged. Much longer and the control cable would have snapped, but the complaint from the pilot was sluggish controls.

    What would happen if a control cable was shot through? The rudder wouldn't work at all in one direction. If you were really unlucky, a shot could hit the bolt holding the rudder pedals to the floor, and you wouldn't be doing tight turns at all. However, even without a rudder, it doesn't mean a pilot can't turn. Rolling the aircraft in the intended direction and pulling back on the stick will allow a "turn" in the intended direction. Not a lot of finesse, but a turn nonetheless.

    So, how much realism do you want? The "explosion" card could be a catastrophic empannage failure, or as happened to Collishaw when his joystick was shot through at it's base, and he was a passenger in his own plane until it crashed. There was no other damage to his plane, until the "landing". He actually survived this with barely a scratch, but he was instantly out of the fight.

    I like the rules as they are, and the boom card is not just an explosion, it is something that instantly takes you out of the fight.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  16. #16

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    I'm nearly on the same page as you Mike.
    I to like the rules to be simple and I like the explosion-card (even if I usually place them at the lower half af the deck when starting a new game)
    I can see the unrealistic side of the standard rules and i can see why someone want to do something aboute them.
    But there are so many variables to reconsither and it is so hard to cover them all. One thing that are simple enough to change, and that I just might do,
    is letting any specialdamage affect the AC ´when on fire or smoking (like the B-deck idea). This is all simple and maby a step towards the real thing....

  17. #17

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    Note:

    The fire damage rules in my initial post have now been edited. Aircraft which over dive now turn only one special card but with an enhanced chance of putting the fire out.

    I have also tweaked the wording on control damage.

    Barry

  18. #18

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    Why to ignore gun jams? It can represent anything, from flames burning somewhere near, to pilot/crew fighting fire, disabled to shoot in those few seconds.

  19. #19

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    I think you can do rudder damage more simply. I was initially thinking that rudder damage prevents a player from planning consecutive turns in that direction, but you get almost the same result by making all turns in the indicated direction steep maneuvers. Then on a second rudder damage in the same direction you simply can not plan turns in that direction at all.



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