Targeting rules for the FE2b and DH2

[Eris Lobo]

(FYI, this is a continuation of the "Reverse Roland Rule" thread. I decided to start a new thread because I thought it was time to focus the ideas a bit differently.)

I've been pondering this whole discussion for the last couple of weeks, and I think (*cross my fingers*) that I've put all the facts together in a way that'll work in the game. Please let me know what you think!

Pilot shots:
Background: Historical testimony from pilots of the DH.2, which (like the FE2b) provided its pilots with a flexible forward machine gun mount, indicated that pilots generally hated the setup because it was very difficult to fly the plane and shoot a flexible gun at the same time. As a result, DH.2 pilots soon were routinely modifying their gun mounts so they were fixed in place to only fire forward, making it far easier to fly and shoot at the same time.

With that in mind, I propose the following rules for both the DH.2 (if playing so its gun has a flexible mount) and the FE2b:
* The pilot's gun has a 180-degree arc of fire facing forward. It can target aircraft at higher altitudes or the same altitude without constraint, but the observer creates a forward-facing blind spot for shooting targets at a lower altitude, identical to the rear-facing blind spot caused by the tail of other planes.
* Because of the difficulty of handling the flexible-mount weapon and flying at the same time, the pilot can fire his gun only during a phase in which the aircraft is flying a non-stressful straight maneuver. At no other time can the pilot fire his gun.

(Note that the above rules only apply to the DH.2 if the plane's gun is considered to be on a flexible mount. If the gun is considered to be fixed in place shooting forward, then normal shooting rules apply.)

Observer shots:
Background: FE2b observers' seats were situated in front of and below the pilot, allowing the pilot to shoot over their head. The pilot's gun was on a telescopic mount, however, and in practice the observer would often turn around, stand up in his seat, pull up the pilot's gun, and use it to fire at rearward targets. Testimony from observers indicated the high value of being able to do this, but also both the difficulty and the great risk, as the observers had no seatbelts to keep them from falling out of the aircraft should the pilot perform an unexpected maneuver.

With this in mind, I propose the following rules regarding observers in an FE2b using the pilot's gun to fire rearwards:
* An observer's forward gun is fully flexible, meaning it can shoot 180-degrees in a forward arc, and can fire without hindrance at targets higher, lower, and at the same level as their aircraft.
* When used by the observer to shoot rearward over the wing, the pilot's gun has a 180-degree rearward arc. Because of the position of the wings and the tail, rearward attacks cannot shoot at targets at a lower altitude, but the gun is unhindered when shooting at targets at the same or higher altitude.
* A marker should be used to indicate which gun an observer is currently controlling.
* An observer can switch between his own gun and the pilot's gun (or between the pilot's gun and his own gun) during any phase in which the aircraft is not performing a stressful maneuver.
* For obvious reasons, the observer cannot take control of the pilot's gun during a phase in which the pilot is using that gun.
* An observer cannot use a gun during the phase in which he switches to that gun.
* Because of the precariousness of the observer's situation, an aircraft cannot perform stressful (steep) maneuvers or Immelmann/Split-S maneuvers while an observer is shooting rearward.

Finally, note the following:
* The pilot of an FE2b can never operate the observer's forward gun, as it is much too far out of his reach
* It is possible that the pilot and the observer of an FE2b can both fire at the same target at the same time if it is in front of their aircraft. In this situation, both guns are considered separate attacks, which means that an enemy could receive four "B" damage hits if he is at close range.

Phew! I didn't expect that the FE2b would prove so ornery regarding finding proper rules to reflect historical accounts, but now I'm even more excited about using it in my early-war games!

Any comments on all this is, of course, quite welcome! See you in the skies!

-- Eris

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

How would you use this FE2b in your rules? It quite plainly has 3 lewis guns. Forward firing (flexible) observers mount, forward firing (fixed) pilots mount and rearward firing, pole mounted (flexible) observers mount.

[Eris Lobo]

How would you use this FE2b in your rules? It quite plainly has 3 lewis guns. Forward firing (flexible) observers mount, forward firing (fixed) pilots mount and rearward firing, pole mounted (flexible) observers mount.

That photograph is specifically noted in a Wikipedia article regarding the various FE2's , which indicates that the aircraft in question (an FE2d) has a "(non-standard) extra Lewis gun for the pilot."

Obviously the pilot in the photograph cannot shoot the third gun while the observer is firing backwards because the observer is in the way. It would seem to me that the extra Lewis gun in the picture serves the purpose of allowing the pilot to have a gun ready to fire forward the moment the observer gets back into his seat without requiring the pilot to pull the telescoping gun back down.

The fact that the third gun was installed in the plane in the photograph seems to me to provide clear proof that FE2 observers did indeed use the pilot's original gun quite a bit to shoot back over the wing, and for this plane they apparently decided to add an additional gun for the pilot so he and the observer wouldn't be having to share a gun back and forth.

For game purposes, the only difference to my proposed rules that I can see would be in regards to gun jams. In my proposed rules, if a gun jam result occurs while the observer is firing backwards over the wing, it also affects the pilot's ability to fire forward, as they're sharing the same gun. If the non-standard third gun is used (as in your photo), the observer and the pilot aren't sharing a gun, so if one of them gets a gun jam it doesn't affect the other's ability to shoot.

By the way, I love that photograph, as it shows just how incredibly courageous the observers were in those planes and how breathtakingly dangerous their jobs were.

-- Eris

[flash]

The F.E.2d that had the 250 hp rolls Royce Mark I Eagle and later production that had the 284 hp Mark III rolls Royce Eagle had the extra power that allowed them to carry the extra gun. The FE2d will need an extra blind spot caused by the gravity tank(?) you can see in the photo.
I don't think that they could engage aircraft at the same level to the rear due to the propeller disc so I would still apply the blind spot rule to those but no such restriction on targets above them.

[Linz]

Just a wee note this is the first time I have heard of the rear firing gun being the pilots.
From my understanding both guns were designed to be used by the Observer.
The pilot using that gun was in am emergency setting only ie Observer out of action.
Imagine if you can you as the observer trying to line up a shot when suddenly at head height the pilot lets lose with a machine gun.
For me this just does not work.
Linz

[flash]

Just a wee note this is the first time I have heard of the rear firing gun being the pilots.
From my understanding both guns were designed to be used by the Observer. The pilot using that gun was in an emergency setting only ie Observer out of action.
Imagine if you can you as the observer trying to line up a shot when suddenly at head height the pilot lets lose with a machine gun. For me this just does not work.
Linz

No one says it happened regularly or was even a sensible thing to do but it was doable. The mount was telescopic so could be dropped down. The emergency theory you gave would be the most likely I'd have said !
There are photographs of FE2b that have a swivel mount to either side of the rear gun mount in front of the cockpit to fix a gun to for pilot or gunners use to shoot at oblique angles both forward and back - this would of course require movement of a gun, and in the earliest versions I understand they carried only one. Of course the most powerful versions carried three which included a mount for the pilot which they put to good use as Eris has given account of elsewhere.

[milcoll73]

has anybody inquired to aircrew who actually operate fying examples of this a/c to see what their opinion is as to the range of fire of these weapons and its viability in the heat of combat?

[phililphall]

I have to agree with Linz. The rear firing gun was the observers. The telescoping rod, when fully closed left the gun well above the pilots head. Also the butt of the gun, when turned towards the front, couldn't be reached by the pilot. When not in use the rear gun stowed in the observers cockpit.

[FarEast]

I thought I would throw the cat among the pigeons with a few pictures:



The gunner/observer seems very capable of firing directly behind him, or it could be the camera angle.

[flash]

We know he can shoot behind him, that's not in dispute but do you think he could hit an aircraft sat on his tail in line with his rudder from there ? the tree line in this photo ? And if he can would there not be a blind spot created, on this version, by the prop and that tank on the top wing ?

[Rabbit 3]

Just a wee note this is the first time I have heard of the rear firing gun being the pilots.
From my understanding both guns were designed to be used by the Observer.
The pilot using that gun was in am emergency setting only ie Observer out of action.
Imagine if you can you as the observer trying to line up a shot when suddenly at head height the pilot lets lose with a machine gun.
For me this just does not work.
Linz

The original idea seemed to be that this second gun was for the use of the pilot, however in practice in order to fire the [deleted] thing he had to somehow stand up in his cockpit holding the control column between his knees while firing.
Not the greatest solution in the world but some pilots made it work!
In practice this gun was appropriated by the observer who still had to climb out of his cockpit in order to fire though there was a sort of wooden headrest/firing step at the cockpit rear on which he could brace himself when shooting at shallower angles while hanging on to the gun.
You still needed nerves of steel to do this though.
Often on the bomber FE2b`s when flying in formation one of the guns would be removed and would be mounted on the front during the outbound leg of the mission and then moved to the rear mount when heading for home.
If attacked by enemy aircraft they would adopt the so-called `Lufbery` maneuver and fly in a circle, covering each others tail.
some more food for thought with some pics of the modern NZ replica.

[OldGuy59]

...

Note that this particular observer isn't crazy enough to stand on the nacelle combing to fire over the top wing. Only if the plane was nose-up could the observer fire at something behind the F.E.2.

I see a separate card for the F.E.2d, and perhaps even a third card for the three-gunned version.

Mike

[OldGuy59]

...

Observer shots:
...
With this in mind, I propose the following rules regarding observers in an FE2b using the pilot's gun to fire rearwards:
...
* An observer can switch between his own gun and the pilot's gun (or between the pilot's gun and his own gun) during any phase in which the aircraft is not performing a stressful maneuver.
...

...
* It is possible that the pilot and the observer of an FE2b can both fire at the same target at the same time if it is in front of their aircraft. In this situation, both guns are considered separate attacks, which means that an enemy could receive four "B" damage hits if he is at close range.
...

-- Eris

Eris,
Awesome outline on the firing profile.

Two observations.

1. The game turn is six seconds, meaning that each phase is two seconds long. Is there enough time to switch between guns between phases, or should it be turns?

2. Were any F.E.2bs equipped with three guns, or was that only the F.E.2d with the bigger engine?

Mike

[Linz]

I would like to suggest another thought for the rear gun.
Close range only at same level and long range to next level up. No ability to fire on aircraft behind and below.
Linz

[Eris Lobo]

I'm growing to love this little plane more with each passing day ...

Isn't it amazing how the complexities of this aircraft has recently spawned three different threads ... and people are still debating exactly how to transform its abilities such that it can be modeled in terms of game play? And while everybody seems so right from their own perspective, everybody seems so wrong in light of the opinions of others ...

Regarding my conclusions regarding the plane's operations, I've done my best to stay true to the original sources -- even when the sources seem to be saying things that are amazing and almost unbelievable ... such as Libby's writings regarding having to stand up on the top of his seat as an observer in an FE2b, turn around, and pull up the pilot's swivel gun (which was on a telescopic mount, allowing it to extend upward to shoot across over the wing in a wide angle at aircraft behind the plane) ... and he did all that without having a safety belt to keep him from falling off the side! Holy cats! And what he did wasn't unique -- other FE2b observers were expected to do the same thing! Talk about balls of steel!

Maybe it's time I write that group in New Zealand that has a replica of the plane, and ask them about it. Either way, when deciding what this wonderful plane could do, and what the men in it could perform, I recommend we look first to what those men actually said in their memoirs ... because they were there and they knew it the best.

See you in the skies!!!

-- Eris

[FarEast]

I think they should all be grounded until this is resolved.

[Eris Lobo]

Grounded? What would that do to the morale of the dear fliers? Are you a Hun spy attempting to infiltrate England's ranks? *looks at you suspiciously*

[FarEast]

Who sir? Me sir?

Sneaks off to delete the OTT Early Doors campaign AAR's

[OldGuy59]

Another thread with a few draft card attempts. I still don't have a definitive answer on this, but I would think that the front arc would be 180 degrees, and to the rear at higher altitude targets only, no blind spot.

Thread here: FE2 Firing and Manouver

[flash]

For the FE2b a 360 arc, wing tip to wing tip to the front, all levels, and to the rear at targets at higher levels only.
With the FE2d with the third gun you could add in a standard arc to the front.