New dive and overdive rules

**'Warspite'** · 06-07-2014 03:58

This started in the General forum under '92 pages of joy' but should really be here:

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I suggest classifying all aircraft in dive groups from D1 to D5 with each higher number being less efficient aerodynamically.

D1: Spad XIII and SE5a - possibly also Sopwith Dolphin and the later (BMW) Fokker DVII

D2: Spad VII and SE5 + German Pfalz DIII/DXII - early (Merc) Fokker VII, possibly SS DIII/DIV as they were heavy rotaries, fast and clean. BristolF2b, Halberstadt CLII and Hanover.

D3: Most other 'inlines' including the Albatros DI/DII and the V-strutters. Fokker DVIII - a rotary-engined type but a very clean monoplane with low drag. DH 4, Breguet + Roland

D4: Most rotary-engined aircraft with tractor engines (i.e. Nieuports, rotary Sopwiths, Hanriot, Fokker E series) + Halberstadt DIII. RE8 and DH2.

D5: Most pusher-engined types such as FE2 and Vickers Gunbus (FB5).

Only the first three groups should be capable of overdive and only the GERMAN Albatros V-strutters, the Nieuport 28, Fokker Dr1 and the Fokker DVIII should turn a damage card after an overdive, the others - including Austrian V-strutters should be immune. The Austrians altered the design of their Albatroses but for some reason either never told the Germans or the Germans ignored the information.

I still favour a distance bonus (to simulate the speed built up in the dive) so... after any move (i.e. three cards played) where an dive or an overdive takes place and the aircraft survives... it may play one straight or one maximum turn card. No other card choices are allowed, no manoeuvres and no tight turns. I would also favour allowing the diving pilot to exchange the dive/overdive card bonus for a height counter instead at his/her choice to simulate using speed to trade-off for height recovery, the so-called 'boom and zoom'. This extra card or height token takes place as an extra phase before the next turn cards are chosen.

D1 aircraft - may gain one bonus card for a dive (straight or largest turn) and may gain a second complete card (straight or largest turn) for an overdive. Each card may be exchanged for a height counter instead.

D2 aircraft - may gain a bonus card (as D1) for a dive. If they go into to overdive they may gain only a stall card extra (half a straight - no turns). Only the first card may be exchanged for a height counter.

D3 aircraft - may gain a bonus card (as D1) for a dive. If they go into into overdive they gain nothing extra in terms of distance but may now exchange the earlier card for a height counter.

D4 aircraft - may only gain a stall card (half a straight) for a dive.

D5 aircraft - no dive distance bonus and may not overdive at all. I call D5 aircraft "the diving parachutes"

The bonus cards are not compulsory as the pilot may choose to dive 'throttled back'. Taking full bonuses represents a full-on power dive.

And before anyone queries this, yes I am aware that if a D1 diver such as a Spad XIII or SE5a overdives and trades off both cards for a height token, it will regain one complete height level peg as these aircraft both currently climb at '2' tokens. That is the advantage of power fighters such as the Spad XIII and compensates for their poor turning circles. In effect they can overdive into a fight, fire at the lowest level they reached but end this (3 card) turn one complete level (peg) higher than where they fired and thus reduce the gun range for next turn's return fire at them. A clever Spad or SE5a pilot will then circle and climb two moves (two tokens), regain their former height level and then overdive into the fray again. Suddenly we have real tactics and the game being played - tactically - in the third dimension.

**EddieRickenback** · 02-08-2015 19:12

Love this idea as it bugs me that the advantage of height is firepower +1 (largely negated by the further range due to altitude), as opposed to a speed advantage. Two quick questions. When they play the "fourth card" of take the climb token, is there any firing allowed after they play that card? Secondly, do they have free choice to pick the maneuver or climb after everyone has played their third card or is there some pre-planning that takes place. Thanks.

**Teaticket** · 02-08-2015 19:23

Very interesting idea here. I think you're on the right track.

**flash** · 02-09-2015 00:41

Originally Posted by EddieRickenback

...Two quick questions. When they play the "fourth card" of take the climb token, is there any firing allowed after they play that card? Secondly, do they have free choice to pick the maneuver or climb after everyone has played their third card or is there some pre-planning that takes place. Thanks.

I would have thought No on the shooting as it's an extra phase and Yes on the pre planning - to do otherwise would be grossly unfair on the other player.

**EddieRickenback** · 02-09-2015 02:05

Originally Posted by flash

I would have thought No on the shooting as it's an extra phase and Yes on the pre planning - to do otherwise would be grossly unfair on the other player.

Thanks. I'm looking forward to trying it in my next game.

**grumpybear** · 02-09-2015 04:32

Like the idea but don't think I could sell it to my group

**fast.git** · 02-09-2015 05:03

Originally Posted by 'Warspite'

I would also favour allowing the diving pilot to exchange the dive/overdive card bonus for a height counter instead at his/her choice to simulate using speed to trade-off for height recovery, the so-called 'boom and zoom'. This extra card or height token takes place as an extra phase before the next turn cards are chosen.

The bonus cards are not compulsory as the pilot may choose to dive 'throttled back'. Taking full bonuses represents a full-on power dive.

You've got some interesting thoughts here, Barry. I'm going to need to give these a go on the table before I really grok them, however. How would you handle "additional" moves, in terms of sequencing? As it stands, movement and planning are effectively simultaneous. How would you adjudicate turn order relating to decisions about exchanging cards for climb counters? Thanks.

Originally Posted by EddieRickenback

Love this idea as it bugs me that the advantage of height is firepower +1 (largely negated by the further range due to altitude), as opposed to a speed advantage. Two quick questions. When they play the "fourth card" of take the climb token, is there any firing allowed after they play that card? Secondly, do they have free choice to pick the maneuver or climb after everyone has played their third card or is there some pre-planning that takes place. Thanks.

I agree with Dave (Flash) that another shooting phase would unduly benefit the diving aircraft.

**Nicola Zee** · 02-10-2015 07:36

Originally Posted by 'Warspite'

...And before anyone queries this, yes I am aware that if a D1 diver such as a Spad XIII or SE5a overdives and trades off both cards for a height token, it will regain one complete height level peg as these aircraft both currently climb at '2' tokens. That is the advantage of power fighters such as the Spad XIII and compensates for their poor turning circles. In effect they can overdive into a fight, fire at the lowest level they reached but end this (3 card) turn one complete level (peg) higher than where they fired and thus reduce the gun range for next turn's return fire at them. A clever Spad or SE5a pilot will then circle and climb two moves (two tokens), regain their former height level and then overdive into the fray again. Suddenly we have real tactics and the game being played - tactically - in the third dimension.

There are some very good ideas to this. I particularly like the way you're handle boom and zoom - trading the bonus card for a climb counter is clever and intuitive.

On the negative - with your bonus card move - (and here I maybe just being pedantic or I've failed to understand it) but are you aware you will end up with a Spad XIII that climbs twice and then then dives moving forward more than if it simply flies forward with no change in height.

Turn 1: Spad climbs 1 and moves forward 2.
Turn 2: Spad climbs 1 and moves forward 1 and dives.
The plane is now back at it's starting height but it will then move a full straight forward plus the length of the plane card.
This bonus distance for the dive is more than twice the difference in distance between the climb card and the straight card.

**EddieRickenback** · 02-10-2015 16:24

I am going to try it this weekend with a simplified approach. Any aircraft that dives during a turn can play a "fourth" card or select a climb counter. The decision time to decide what you will do is after the second card is played but prior to the third card being revealed. If your third card is the dive card, you must simply announce it before the third cards are revealed. Once you make your declaration, you must select either to climb, select a fourth card played face down next to your third, or take no bonus. Since the selection of the fourth card happens before the third card is revealed, it brings some advantage without being overwhelming and no other player gets to adjust for it. There will be no shooting after the fourth card is played and the fourth card will not count toward sequencing. For example, you can't play a fourth card straight and then follow it immediately with an Immelman. I love the feedback as making altitude an easy addition that brings excitement to the game is important to me.

**EddieRickenback** · 02-14-2015 05:38

Tried it this weekend and it worked really well. Found out you can have altitude and dive down at the wrong time and completely waste it, or you could play that fourth card at the right time and position yourself for a great shot on the next phase. Pretty simple overall. Very pleased and everyone liked it.