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Thread: Limited Ammo and Unjamming Rules

  1. #1

    Default Limited Ammo and Unjamming Rules

    I’ve been working on ways here and there to increase the realism of Wings of War while keeping in the uncomplicated spirit of the rules. With thanks to Kaiser for the inspiration his own set of advanced rules gave me, I present here the rules we’ve been trying out to increase realism regarding shooting.

    (1) Ammo points
    * Weapons receive “ammo points” to indicate the number of bursts they can fire. These points can easily be kept track of by using the “movement point” disks provided with the rules set.
    * All guns receive 12 ammo points.
    * Most aircraft in the game are belt fed, and so the 12 points of ammo can be used continuously without reloading. However, when all ammo has been used, the gun cannot be reloaded.
    * Lewis guns and other similar weapons are allotted four drums, each with three ammo points. After a drum is empty or partially empty, it can be reloaded with a full drum (if any remain). Partially empty drums cannot be reused after being removed from the gun.
    * Easily available information on the Internet (such as Wikipedia) should indicate whether a particular aircraft historically used drums or belt-fed ammunition.

    (2) Weapon bursts
    * A weapon can fire either a normal burst or a long burst.
    * If the weapon fires a normal burst, one damage card is given to the opponent to indicate damage, as per standard rules, and one ammo point is used up for that weapon.
    * If a weapon fires a long burst, two damage cards are provided to the opponent, and two ammo points are used up for that weapon.
    * If an attack is at close range, an additional damage card is given to the opponent, but at no ammo cost to the attacker.
    * As per standard rules, the attacker’s weapon is jammed if any of the damage cards he gives to his opponent indicates a jam result.
    * If an attacker fires a long burst, however, he draws an additional card from the weapon’s appropriate damage deck. If the additional card indicates a jam result, then the weapon is jammed. The card is otherwise ignored and is returned to a random point in the appropriate damage draw deck.

    (3) Unjamming
    * Weapons are no longer automatically unjammed after three phases, but instead a pilot (or observer) must attempt to unjam their weapon at the end of each phase.
    * A pilot can attempt to unjam a weapon if the aircraft has flown a non-steep straight that phase. An observer can attempt to unjam a weapon if the aircraft has flown a non-steep maneuver of any type that phase. (An Immelmann is considered a steep maneuver.)
    * To unjam a weapon, draw a card from the weapon’s appropriate damage deck. If the drawn card is a “zero”, the weapon is unjammed. The card is otherwise ignored and is returned to a random spot in its draw deck.
    * A weapon remains jammed until it is unjammed as per the above rule.
    * A pilot faced with a jammed weapon may change his planned maneuvers in a limited way to reflect his desire to focus on the problem. To reflect this, at the beginning of a phase before any movement cards are revealed, a pilot with a jammed weapon may choose to play a non-steep straight card during the upcoming movement phase play (which simulates him removing his hands from the controls while he tries to remove the stuck cartridge), and consequently shift all of his unplayed maneuver cards one space to the right. The card furthest to the right (which has been moved off the planning field) is returned to the maneuver deck and not played during the current turn.

    (4) Reloading
    * A pilot can reload his weapon after performing two non-steep straight maneuvers in a row. There must not be a break between the two maneuvers.
    * An observer can reload his weapon after the aircraft performs two non-steep maneuvers of any type in a row. There must not be a break between the two maneuvers.

    We’ve been testing these rules, and we believe they add an interesting (and more realistic) aspect to the game. I’ll be looking forward to hearing what you think!

    See you in the skies!

    -- Eris

  2. #2

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    We use a limited ammo rule as each player draws 8 damage cards once they are gone he can no longer shoot. At long range 1 card from your 8 , at short 1 from your 8 ,1 from community deck, I think this is from KOTA rules and works well for us. As for unjamming and reloading I like what you have above [3 and 4 ]

  3. #3

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    Eris,
    Perhaps you are playing the wrong game? I am playing Wings of Glory for the simplicity.

    So, there are many simplifications to rules in this game that I live with, just to keep the fun level up. It is amazing that all the people trying to fiddle with the rules for details in ammo, climb rates, fuel, structure and speed haven't been crying about the regimented turns (ie: you have to turn the whole card's turn, but can't turn less) on a given card. Back when I first joined the forum, I found maneuver decks (now removed for copyright reasons) that proposed climbing and diving turns. I looked high and low for house rules to use these cards, but without success. These maneuvers seemed much more "realistic" to how planes really fly, than allowing climbs and dives using only straight maneuvers. Oh, well.

    So, I have been on a campaign to introduce the simple and fun game of Wings of Glory to people in my area, noting that anyone looking for realism try games like Blue Max, Check Your Six, etc...

    Please try to enjoy the game for what it is.

    Mike

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Eris,
    Perhaps you are playing the wrong game? I am playing Wings of Glory for the simplicity.
    ...
    Please try to enjoy the game for what it is.
    Mike
    I love Wings of Glory with a passion. I play it with my husband multiple times every week, and I've often run scenarios for an established gaming club in town.

    The reason I enjoy tweaking with it is not because I don't like it, but because I like it so much. If I didn't like it, I'd just put it on the shelf and play something else.

    I'm putting my own mark on the game. I'm adding to the wonderful set of rules that already exist. I'm attempting to enhance the gaming experience for the rest of the community that frequents this board.

    And I'm not alone. Look at all the hundreds of threads posted in the House Rules section for just the World War I planes alone! People creating rules for clouds, and landing while wounded, and having to sight your enemy, and attacking naval ships, and anything else you can think of that might broaden how people play the game.

    And read the posts on this board by the game's designer, Andrea Angiolino. He encourages people to suggest ideas for the game. He listens to input. And even he makes suggestions about potential modifications to the rules that might make it more realistic while keeping it fun and maintaining its flavor.

    I like to think of Wings of Glory as a living game. The fact that it's so simple at its core makes it such a wonderful canvas for personal modification. And when I come up with a modification I'm proud of, I like to share it with others here just in case they might like using it, too.

    If you don't like the rules changes I'm suggesting in this thread, by all means you shouldn't use them. But please don't condemn me or anybody else for presenting ideas for new rules. That's part of the creative experience we all share here.

    Take care, and enjoy, my friend. See you in the skies!

    -- Eris

    p.s. I play several other air-combat games, including Canvas Eagles, Wings, Dawn Patrol, Ace of Aces, Knight's Cross and Warbirds in Miniature. They're all different, and they're all great in their own distinct ways. Wings of Glory, however, happens to be my favorite of all of them.

  5. #5

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    Eris,
    Well. There's a lesson in "don't post when you've been drinking"!

    Yup. You're right. On a lot of levels. Sorry.

    Have at it! I'll shut my mouth (figuratively speaking). You have a lot more experience in aerial combat games than I do.

    Mike

    PS: I probably don't want to meet you across a gaming table, either. I'd get my scruffy butt shot off.

  6. #6

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    This being the 'House Rules' section I think this is the correct venue to put all these points forward. Everyone has their own slant on how 'realistic' they want the rules to be, or how complicated depending on how you look at it and from which angle. I like to read the input of others. I take a little from this, a little from that and incorporate what I like into my own house rules. At the end of the day this game is as complicated or not as we each intend it to be. That is one of the great, fun aspects of the game. Just how well it lends itself to change and still, at heart, remains the same game.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    ... At the end of the day this game is as complicated or not as we each intend it to be. That is one of the great, fun aspects of the game. Just how well it lends itself to change and still, at heart, remains the same game.
    Yeah. What he said...

    Mike

  8. #8

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    Options like these have come up before. You might want to search past posts to get more input on these rules.

    As for my own input, I would say that based upon the time frame represented by the game, the firing rules actually aren't particularly realistic (with the possible exception of magazine-fed gun ammo restrictions). Each phase of movement represents approximately 2 seconds.

    For ammo restrictions, a vickers gun armed with a 500 round belt (not uncommon) has enough ammo for about a minute or more of continuous firing -- about 30 phases, or 10 turns. (That is based on a ground-based weapon's rate of fire. In practice air-mounted weapons were slower firing due to the continual pauses from the interrupter gear that prevented shooting off the prop!) When you consider that planes usually aren't firing every phase, ammunition isn't really a concern within the scope of a game. Magazine fed weapons are perhaps the exception to this. A lewis gun with a 47 round drum could fire for 3 phases -- 6 phases with the 97 round drum.

    As for burst fire, I'm not sure how you would envision a pilot "firing more" within 2 seconds. The additional effects for getting to fire a more sustained burst are represented by successive phases of fire with the +1 aim bonus.

    On the other hand, the official altitude rules aren't particularly realistic and are simply there to add a sense of altitude to the game. There is something to be said for limiting ammo if you want to add a sense of this to the game as well. (I'm more a fan of realism than 'flavour', so I tend not to. I'm still trying to find a simple-yet-realistic house rule for altitude!)

    The unjamming rules you propose, though, I like. I have never really been a fan of the automatic unjam. From what I understand, realistically once a weapon was jammed it was jammed until the ground crew worked it over. From a game perspective, however, this isn't a lot of fun to play so there should be a reasonable chance to unjam guns. Restrictions on maneuvering while attempting to unjam a gun make sense (especially if it is a lewis in a foster over-wing mount). Whether you want the added complexity (especially of being able to alter planned moves) is subject to personal opinion!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by steel_ratt View Post
    As for burst fire, I'm not sure how you would envision a pilot "firing more" within 2 seconds. The additional effects for getting to fire a more sustained burst are represented by successive phases of fire with the +1 aim bonus.
    Thanks for the very informative response, steel_ratt! I truly appreciate both your applause and criticism!

    I created the "burst fire" rule because I've read in a couple of places that pilots in WWI were advised to shoot in "blips" because, although sustained fire allowed them to zone in on their target, it significantly increased the chance that their gun would jam. (If anybody knows for sure whether that is just a myth and isn't true, I'd really like to hear from them.)

    That being said, we're starting to balk at using the burst-fire rule because adding an additional card of damage to an attack has been turning out to be a bit too deadly, and just having the attacker draw an additional card to check for jamming isn't enough of a penalty.

    During the next few games we play, we're going to change it so that the additional "jam check" card drawn by an attacker who uses burst fire will indicate that his gun has jammed if that card shows a "jam" result OR if that card shows a value of "zero." (FYI, a "zero" shows up about one in three cards in an "A" deck.) We figure that will make gunners use burst fire only in an important situation where they feel they're willing to take the increased chance of jamming. We'll see how it works out ...

    Again, thanks for the input!

    -- Eris

  10. #10

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    Firing a sustained burst tends to overheat the barrel. An overheated barrel tends to jam rounds, in the barrel. No way to unjam one of those, other than back at the armourers. 2-3 or 3-5 round bursts are more accurate, tend not to overheat the barrel, conserve ammo and see where the fall of shot is.

    I suppose being a grunt at one time in ones life does have it's advantages what advantages those are remain unclear.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    I suppose being a grunt at one time in ones life does have it's advantages what advantages those are remain unclear.
    You get to choose to dust off and nuke the entire site from orbit - it's the only way to be sure!

  12. #12

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    Thanks for pointing out the error in my thinking, guys. I'd rather be proven wrong but learn the facts than allowed to incorrectly think I'm right.

    Since I last posted, I've researched using a variety of expert sources the concept of gun jams in WWI aircraft, and I've discussed the issue thoroughly with my husband, who is a Naval Vietnam-era vet and is very familiar with the nuances of machine-gun characteristic.

    These seem to be the facts (please correct me if I still haven't got it right):
    (1) Whenever somebody fired a gun in WWI, it could very possibly have jammed, whether they fired just a little "blip" or fired a longer "burst." Let's say that a "burst" fires three times as many bullets as a "blip." If so, then a gun was three times likely to jam if it fired a burst simply because it fired three times as many bullets, but a jam could still happen during a short "blip." And the jam could happen at any time, meaning that only a bullet or two could be fired before the jam occurred even if the pilot desired to fire a lengthy "burst".

    (2) If somebody fires a gun so long that it overheats, chances are they really screwed up the gun and it won't fire very well until it can be taken back to the shop and fixed. If overheating causes the gun to seize up and stop firing, there ain't nothing the pilot will be able to do to fix it in the sky. Even if the gun still can fire, overheating could still warp the barrel, making the gun increasingly inaccurate and difficult to fire.

    Therefore, my optional rules about "burst fire" appear to be inaccurate and based on misconceptions on my part regarding how machine guns historically worked in WWI aircraft. As a result, I don't recommend playing those rules anymore. (I still, however, stand by the other rule suggestions I posted at the top of this thread regarding limited ammo, reloading and unjamming. )

    Now then ... in light of my research, I got to thinking about the existing Wings of Glory gun-jam rules. It seems only one "optimum" rate of fire is possible by weapons, although close-range shots get double the damage cards. To my understanding, close-range shots get double the cards not because more bullets are fired at close range, but because the gunner would be more accurate when he was shooting at a target at close range. However, because a close-range shot uses double the damage cards, it doubles the chance that a gun will jam, even though the same number of bullets were fired as when shooting at long range. Logically, this makes no sense to me. Therefore, my recommendation for close range firing is as follows: when a close-range shot causes additional damage cards to be given to a player, the damage cards should be given one at a time, and the attacker's gun jams only if a jam symbol was indicated on the first of the cards given (i.e., only the cards that would have been given to the target if the attack was done at long range are used to determine if the attacker's gun has jammed).

    What do you think? I believe that although it decreases the possibility of a jam, it seems to make the chance of a jam more realistic.

    Now then, to meander even more with the topic ...

    Out of curiosity's sake, I reviewed the rules of several WWI air-combat games I have to see how they handle gun jamming:

    Wings (Yaquinto): Often touted as the most realistic WWI air-combat game that remains playable, it was no surprise to me that they have the most realistic jamming rules. You can fire up to three rounds at a target. After deciding how much to fire, you check a table and roll a die, comparing the die roll against the number of rounds you fired. A gun that fired three rounds has a larger chance of jamming than a gun that fired one round, but only because more rounds were fired. If you do jam, the table indicates when the jam happened -- for example, if you fired three rounds, it indicates whether no rounds went off, one round went off, two rounds, or all three rounds before the jam occurred. Your chance of unjamming afterward is the same no matter how many rounds you fired the turn the jam occurred. Jamming checks are made for each gun individually even if they're linked to fire together, so it's possible one gun may jam and the other doesn't, and a pilot may choose to keep shooting with just the unjammed gun and take the time to unjam the other one later. I salute the game's designers on this one!

    Canvas Eagles (Free to download): Co-created by the original designer of Blue Max, this game takes the rules of Blue Max and adds numerous enhancements while keeping the original flavor. Many of the players are also Wings of Glory fans who use their miniatures with both games. When you fire at a target in Canvas Eagles, you can fire a short, medium or long burst. If you fire a long burst, you roll a D6, and you jam on a 5 or 6. You can only attempt to unjam while flying straight, and your chance to unjam is 50/50. Simple, but rather unrealistic. It seems jamming is mainly used as a potential punishment against people who shoot everything they can at any target possible.

    Ace of Aces (Nova Games): Awesome game using unique (patented!) book-based dynamics, but they definitely got historical accuracy wrong in a few places, with gun jamming seeming to be one of them. When faced with a shot at an opponent, you can shoot from one to six rounds. If you shoot three or less rounds, you will never jam. The chance of a jam increases from there, such that if you shoot six rounds, you will jam almost half the time. And the more bullets you shot before the jam, the longer it will take you to unjam it. Quirky, but still quite fun.

    Dawn Patrol (TSR): This game is rather strange in numerous ways, yet it retains a very dedicated fan base, despite being out of print for decades. Regarding gun jamming, if you take a short burst there's a 5% chance of jamming, and 10% if you take a long burst. However, the gun gets hotter and hotter every turn you keep firing, increasing the chances of jamming by 5% each turn (this is cumulative, making the gun hotter and hotter as you fire it). Every turn you don't fire allows the gun to cool off a little bit, decreasing the jamming probability by 5% a turn. Jams caused by an overheated gun that had been fired too long are treated the same as jams that occur in a cool gun, and the more shots you took when the jam occurred, the harder it is for you to afterward attempt to unjam the gun.

    Hopefully all that hasn't been too much of a digression from the topic, but I thought people would find it interesting to see how other game designers tackled the problem of gun jamming.

    Tally ho, and see you in the skies!

    -- Eris
    Last edited by Eris Lobo; 04-29-2014 at 17:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpybear View Post
    We use a limited ammo rule as each player draws 8 damage cards once they are gone he can no longer shoot. At long range 1 card from your 8 , at short 1 from your 8 ,1 from community deck, I think this is from KOTA rules and works well for us. As for unjamming and reloading I like what you have above [3 and 4 ]
    Yes, that is my rule from KotA. Initially I had it set at 10 cards of ammo, but no one ever ran out of ammo during a normal game. We I switched it to 8 cards of ammo, running out of ammo was not common, but getting down to just one or two cards of ammo happened a lot. So it add the suspense or stress of knowing that you might run low on ammo... so you did not always take that long range shot when a "bonus" target flew by at extreme range.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eris Lobo View Post

    Now then ... in light of my research, I got to thinking about the existing Wings of Glory gun-jam rules. It seems only one "optimum" rate of fire is possible by weapons, although close-range shots get double the damage cards. To my understanding, close-range shots get double the cards not because more bullets are fired at close range, but because the gunner would be more accurate when he was shooting at a target at close range. However, because a close-range shot uses double the damage cards, it doubles the chance that a gun will jam, even though the same number of bullets were fired as when shooting at long range. Logically, this makes no sense to me. Therefore, my recommendation for close range firing is as follows: when a close-range shot causes additional damage cards to be given to a player, the damage cards should be given one at a time, and the attacker's gun jams only if a jam symbol was indicated on the first of the cards given (i.e., only the cards that would have been given to the target if the attack was done at long range are used to determine if the attacker's gun has jammed).

    What do you think? I believe that although it decreases the possibility of a jam, it seems to make the chance of a jam more realistic.
    Over the years I've come to think of the extra card drawn at closer is to simulate blend of the two. It has a higher potential for more damage because the shot is taken closer with a better chance to hit as well as a slightly longer burst of fire. I think it's pretty common to try and make the most of a good firing opportunity. As such, an increased chance of jamming is except able.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    Yes, that is my rule from KotA. Initially I had it set at 10 cards of ammo, but no one ever ran out of ammo during a normal game. We I switched it to 8 cards of ammo, running out of ammo was not common, but getting down to just one or two cards of ammo happened a lot. So it add the suspense or stress of knowing that you might run low on ammo... so you did not always take that long range shot when a "bonus" target flew by at extreme range.
    It was KotA that actually inspired me to create my own limited-ammo rules. KotA is great , but I found in practice in our games that we didn't have enough damage cards to distribute to everybody to handle all the guns in play. We like playing with two-seater's, each of which would require 16 damage cards to be dealt them at the start of the game. Even in a game with just fighters, eight cards apiece limits us to just four planes.

    During almost any game, the amount of shooting is very unevenly distributed. Some planes shoot a lot, and others hardly get anything off before being shot down. As a result, if every plane gets a stack of damage cards at the start of the game, many of them will never be used.

    Therefore, we figured the best way to handle limited ammo was to simply keep track of it. Markers can easily be used, and lately we've been using dice to good effect.

    Regarding the amount of ammo, using 12 shots and was just an experimental guess. In light of your observations, and in the knowledge that running out of ammo was a real concern for WWI pilots, I'll reduce the limit to eight shots per gun during the next few games and see what happens (with Lewis guns now getting only two shots per drum instead of three).

    What's very important to me, however, is maintaining the rules about Lewis guns, with their limited ammo per drum and pilot having to reload them in flight. This situation accounted for numerous exciting firsthand stories I've read from pilots describing how dangerous it sometimes was to have to change drums in the middle of combat, and I think that would be a great enhancement to the gaming experience!

    Thanks for the input. See you in the skies!

    -- Eris
    Last edited by Eris Lobo; 04-30-2014 at 08:41.

  16. #16

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    If you are using only a single damage deck, dealing the cards out can be an issue for lager games. Whenever I run events with lots of players, I always have 2 to 4 decks in play. That also increase the chance of each person getting a "special" damage card to deal you. Multiple decks also remove the need for any type of counter or marker.

    Back in the day, having multiple damage decks of the same type could be hard and expensive to obtain. Now with the RAP and Duel Packs, the A deck at least is readily available. It does not help for WGF, but my new WGS Deluxe Cockpit has two multipurpose dials that could be used to track both MG and Cannon shots.

    I'm in support of the Lewis guns being limited a little more, but I've never actually used it. Nearly 100% of my games these days is running it at Cons where there are new players. I try to stick to the rules as written as much as possible, only applying house rules which are designed to de-confuse certain parts of the game (collisions, shooting while overlapping and such).

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpybear View Post
    We use a limited ammo rule as each player draws 8 damage cards once they are gone he can no longer shoot. At long range 1 card from your 8 , at short 1 from your 8 ,1 from community deck, I think this is from KOTA rules and works well for us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    Yes, that is my rule from KotA. Initially I had it set at 10 cards of ammo, but no one ever ran out of ammo during a normal game. We I switched it to 8 cards of ammo, running out of ammo was not common, but getting down to just one or two cards of ammo happened a lot. So it add the suspense or stress of knowing that you might run low on ammo... so you did not always take that long range shot when a "bonus" target flew by at extreme range.
    Excellent little rules tweak. We've used it in local games and we like it... it removes some of the "sting" of drawing a brace of zeroes only to discover that, had you drawn earlier (or later), the kite getting shot about wouldn't be yours!
    Last edited by fast.git; 05-07-2014 at 10:12. Reason: Cut & Paste Issues

  18. #18

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    The reduced jam chance for close range shots (only using the first card drawn to determine jams) is used quite a lot. I am a strong proponent of this as it also makes sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steel_ratt View Post
    The reduced jam chance for close range shots (only using the first card drawn to determine jams) is used quite a lot. I am a strong proponent of this as it also makes sense to me.
    Interesting. I've not used this one, myself... but will give it a go. Thanks!

  20. #20

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    Eris,

    (although, to some extent, I believe simplicity is important part of this game) I must say your ideas are interesting, and keeping track really shouldn't be hard.

    I have to ask you, did you have in mind amendments considering wounded pilots, rookie pilots, airplanes on fire? Or even introducing coldblooded pilots? Also, having in mind that ratio of 0 cards to "full" cards may differ during the game, have you considered idea of rolling the dice instead? Or (if you want to keep the game dice-free) to use markers, with "unjammed" & "still jammed" or "loaded" & "unloaded" in same ratio for normal circumstances (but changing ratio for coldblooded pilots, rookies, wounded pilots or planes on fire)? Such deck would consist of 4 negative (1 starting + 1 for each negative situation) and 2 positive (1 starting + 1 for coldblooded pilot ) markers. So, probability would vary from 4N and 1P (for wounded rookie on fire), giving 20% chance for immediate success, to 1N and 2P (coldblooded pilot in normal situation), giving 66,66% chance for immediate success - comparing to starting 50%.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    (although, to some extent, I believe simplicity is important part of this game) ... I have to ask you, did you have in mind amendments considering wounded pilots, rookie pilots, airplanes on fire? Or even introducing coldblooded pilots?
    I believe simplicity is VERY important to the game -- which is why I didn't consider any of those amendments you mentioned, or consider dice rolling, or precisely calculating probability, or anything like that.

    But I'm not saying you shouldn't use them. In fact, I encourage it, if it makes the game more fun for you.

    Everybody has their threshold regarding how complicated they want an air-combat game to be. Not complex enough, and the game never catches the feel of representing the experience of a daring fight in the skies. Too complex, and the game becomes more of an exercise in mathematical simulation, and loses the excitement and sensation of split-second decisions.

    I've played a large variety of WWI air-combat games, and all of them have their pros and cons. I love Wings of Glory the most because, to me, its abstraction actually allows it to be more realistic, in that it allows the game to flow smoothly and be played quickly, giving the players a chance to experience the rush of a dogfight without being bogged down in rules.

    But I admit that Wings of Glory cuts corners in regards to being an accurate simulation, and sometimes I really enjoying trying to figure out ways to make Wings of Glory a bit more realistic without hurting the game's dynamics.

    Finding the right balance is tricky, and what I feel to be the right amount of additional rules is too much for some people, and not enough for others, like yourself.

    Most of all, the game should be fun. The best way to figure out if a rule idea is a good one is to try it out, and if you find that play suffers as a result, then get rid of it.

    I hope that helps, and answers your questions. Keep up the good work, and good luck finding the balance that works best for you!

    See you in the skies!

    -- Eris

    p.s. Yes, we have indeed found out through play testing that the ration of "A" damage cards changes through the game. As a result, we've been considering changing to a deck that is hardly used in the game, such as the "C" deck or the "D" deck. We'll see what happens.

  22. #22

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    Of course and that way you tend to get your man.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    You get to choose to dust off and nuke the entire site from orbit - it's the only way to be sure!
    See you on the Dark Side......

  23. #23

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    My last AAR I used 12 cards per aircraft and posted remaining cards in the summary. However, my own personal slant, I am working towards the following:

    Rookie: 8 cards: Reason, they tend to pull the trigger more and waste more ammo.
    Trained: (A non-rookie) 10 cards, learned the hard way to conserve ammo.
    Veteran/Ace: 12 cards, knows when to fire and when not to. Fires shorter bursts because he's good.

    Drum loads: Lewis (5-600 RPM) 47 round drum 2/3 cards 97 round drum 3/4 cards (dependent on skill) 3-4 drums?
    parabellum (4-600 RPM) 250 round mag(?) 8/10/12 (as forward firing gun skill) ? drums

    Reloading: 3 cards non-steep maneuvers or immelman!

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Lt. S.Kafloc; 05-18-2014 at 09:55.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eris Lobo View Post
    ...
    p.s. Yes, we have indeed found out through play testing that the ration of "A" damage cards changes through the game. As a result, we've been considering changing to a deck that is hardly used in the game, such as the "C" deck or the "D" deck. We'll see what happens.
    That's why I suggested introducing new "auxiliary deck" which allows control of battlefield circumstances. I haven't tested it yet, although.
    And one thing I like about this forum, it's very house rule friendly

  25. #25

    SHVAK's Avatar
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    Perry
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    Agree with keeping things simple - but here is what I use for enhanced house rules.

    A-damage = twin guns; B-damage = single gun. A green jam card only jams one barrel of a twin gun. If jammed by green card, an A-damage gun can shoot as B-damage, or there can be an attempt to unjam (but not both).

    - My campaign uses historical aircraft (AC) and guns respective of the nation and the time period. I have incorporated some rules from other games, as well as divided historical gun belt/drum total rounds and firing rates into usable numbers, referred to as ammo counts.

    Guns have limited ammo counts before the gun (or reload magazine) runs out of ammunition, as follows:
    25 = Spandau
    20 = Vickers
    15 = Schwarzlose
    12 = Parabellum (+ reloads)
    5 = Lewis (+ reloads)
    3 = Revelli (+ reloads)


    Parabellum: generally 2 reloads for Pilot, 3 for Observer (Rear Gunner)
    Lewis: Pilot has 3 reloads; Observer has 4-9 depending on plane
    Revelli: 4 reloads

    - Long range shot uses 2 ammo counts (presuming pilot/observer holding trigger longer; can still fire at long range with 1 remaining ammo count)
    - Short range shot uses 1 ammo count (player’s choice of gun if Lewis/Vicker’s combo).

    So in practice, a Vickers gun can fire 20 times at short range, 10 times at long range, or some combination of the two, before completely running out of ammo, whereas a Revelli can only fire 2 times at long range or 4 times at short range, before reloading is required.

    Reloading uses same procedure as unjamming with penalties to maneuvers and being wounded.

    Ammo counts may seem confusing as written here, but really its quite easy to enact in gameplay with some simple logkeeping.
    Last edited by SHVAK; 06-17-2014 at 09:34. Reason: fixed numbers

  26. #26

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    Perry,

    nice and useful material!

    Only, for simplicity, I would leave "1 shot = 1 count".

    If you shoot at long range, you'll still loose 1 count for damage twice less.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    Over the years I've come to think of the extra card drawn at closer is to simulate blend of the two. It has a higher potential for more damage because the shot is taken closer with a better chance to hit as well as a slightly longer burst of fire. I think it's pretty common to try and make the most of a good firing opportunity. As such, an increased chance of jamming is except able.
    i agree with that and i think its by design. the disparity of the handling of 2 very similar but significantly different situations makes me think this (and adds that much more respects for andreas creation). the fact that at short range you deal 2 cards doubling the damage potential as well as the jamming potential whilst zeroing on your target by firing at it again on subsequent phases (if the rule is used) nets +1 damage at whatever range while not increasing jam frequency (ie getting more "bang for your buck" with the same overall number of rounds fired) even thought the simple solution would have been to handle both situations one way or the other strongly implys the train of thought you mention.

    i constantly marvel at the simple, easy to apply rules to deal with such a complex a thing as air combat that wow/wog has been distilled down to and its why i LOVE this game.

    one house rule ive been toying with is the chance of only one gun from an A rated aircraft jamming with each jam event. a red jam mark would indicate a feed, fire, or ejection issue affecting only the gun involved leaving the other gun unimpeded firing for as long as the pilot chose to continue firing (or it jams). a green jam mark would indicate an inertial stress issue affecting both guns more or less equally (ie rounds hanging in the chute or belts twisting or sticking) impeding all firing until the jam is cleared in both guns. i dont think the disparity in the amount of time clearing each types of jams would be an issue in that with the latter types you have to unjam both guns instead of just one with the feed, fire or ejection issues.

    wanting to try this was reinforced while rereading an old book due to the anniversary of the start of ww1. in "war birds: dairy of an unknown aviator" about an american pilot serving in the raf toward the end of the war. it relates an incident where mvr attacks a fellow pilot "with one gun switched off". i had forgotten the passage and the implication that such was possible. was it intentional and why or had one of his guns jammed and he found it inexpedient to take the time to unjam it in the heat of combat.

  28. #28

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    There is a discussion on this very aspect of the game somewhere her in the House Rules Forum Phillip.
    Here is one link.

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...light=gun+jams

    Well worth hunting out the other.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    My last AAR I used 12 cards per aircraft and posted remaining cards in the summary. However, my own personal slant, I am working towards the following:

    Rookie: 8 cards: Reason, they tend to pull the trigger more and waste more ammo.
    Trained: (A non-rookie) 10 cards, learned the hard way to conserve ammo.
    Veteran/Ace: 12 cards, knows when to fire and when not to. Fires shorter bursts because he's good.

    Drum loads: Lewis (5-600 RPM) 47 round drum 2/3 cards 97 round drum 3/4 cards (dependent on skill) 3-4 drums?
    parabellum (4-600 RPM) 250 round mag(?) 8/10/12 (as forward firing gun skill) ? drums

    Reloading: 3 cards non-steep maneuvers or immelman!

    Thoughts?
    Nice one Neil , do you do that count for both WGF and WGS,


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  30. #30

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    I sometimes do that also but only split cards so rookies get fewer. Depends on the scenario a lot.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  31. #31

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    I'm also vying with how long an aircraft has been on patrol already, have they fired their gun(s) already, possible damage sustained. Just to add some variety and chance to a scenario.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    There is a discussion on this very aspect of the game somewhere her in the House Rules Forum Phillip.
    Here is one link.

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...light=gun+jams

    Well worth hunting out the other.
    Rob.
    thanks rob!

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    I'm also vying with how long an aircraft has been on patrol already, have they fired their gun(s) already, possible damage sustained. Just to add some variety and chance to a scenario.
    Exactly what I was thinking of doing Neil.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  34. #34

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    I’ve been working on ways here and there to increase the realism of Wings of War while keeping in the uncomplicated spirit of the rules. With thanks to Kaiser for the inspiration his own set of advanced rules gave me, I present here the rules we’ve been trying out to increase realism regarding shooting.

    But you are taking away realism by not taking into account of ammo loads for various aircraft I do not think you can have one without the other.

  35. #35

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    I’ve been working on ways here and there to increase the realism of Wings of War while keeping in the uncomplicated spirit of the rules. With thanks to Kaiser for the inspiration his own set of advanced rules gave me, I present here the rules we’ve been trying out to increase realism regarding shooting.

    But you are taking away realism by not taking into account of ammo loads for various aircraft I do not think you can have one without the other.
    DH.2 5 drums Lewis
    DH.4 600 Vickers, 6-10 drums Lewis
    DH.5 750 Vickers
    DH.9 250 Vickers minimum, 7-10 drums Lewis

    Bristol Scout 3-4 drums Lewis or 250 Vickers
    F.2b Fighter 500 rounds Vickers, 7 drums Lewis
    Sopwith Pup, Triplane, Camel F1 500 Vickers

    Spad VII 500 some only 350
    Spad XIII 800 some only 640
    N17 500 or 3 drums minimum

    All Albatros fighters, Fokker Dr.I and D.VII 1,000 rounds Spandau
    Fokker E.I 500
    Fokker E.III 550
    SS D.VIII 500

    Aviatik D.I 600

    Lots of variance between fighters.



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