WGS Cockpits?

[Oberst Hajj]

I've been meaning to make a WGS version of my deluxe cockpit for some time now and many of you have asked for one as well. I've had some design ideas floating around in that large empty space in my head, but I'd like to hear from you guys and gals as to what you might want in a WGS cockpit. Here is the pick of the new Deluxe WGF version to help you visualize what you might need or want:







Obviously we need less spaces for maneuver cards and we need a location for the different speed tokens. What else?

[Thomatchef]

Defenitly space to accomodate the larger movement cards...

[Oberst Hajj]

Good point Thomas. Since the WGF version incorporates some house rules elements, I was thinking a dial for fuel might be in order on the WGS version. I know limited fuel does not get played that often, but I wonder if there was an easy method to track it if that would change. I see the biggest advantage of a fuel dial in BoB games where the 109s would have reduced loiter time.

[Thomatchef]

Good point Thomas. Since the WGF version incorporates some house rules elements, I was thinking a dial for fuel might be in order on the WGS version. I know limited fuel does not get played that often, but I wonder if there was an easy method to track it if that would change. I see the biggest advantage of a fuel dial in BoB games where the 109s would have reduced loiter time.

- I never play with fuel, so a dial for that wouldn't be needed. Maybe a unnamed multi-purpose dial? One that can be used for fuel, ammo or anything else that needs counting. I would find it a bit sad to have a dial on my super fancy cockpit that doesn't get used.

- Defenitly a damage and altitude dial.

- A space to put the damage tokens

- Space to put one or two ace ability tokens maybe?

- The airplane card

- What would be a huge plus is an arrow between the two movement cards to show which one must shift postition after one is played.

- If possible something to track fire or smoke like in the cockpits that Honza made. Instead of the tokens maybe something to slide....

[Oberst Hajj]

Those or more great thoughts Thomas.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I like the idea of smoke and fire track, keeping on that track what about the ace abilities....a track for resetting ability (can't think of the right word there but I think you'll get what I'm at. Do away with the +1 damage card place (use the damage dial instead). I'd go with fuel but with Thomas' suggestion of a third unmarked dial that could be used for ammo/fuel or add 2 dials unmarked. A slot for movement chits? (viable?), you have fast/slow/blank/dive/vertical dive etc.

[Jager]

The biggest problem I'm seeing is making the thing too crowded.
Dials for fuel and ammo are great if you use them, but how many would? A small square for chits for fuel and ammo (remember, lots of the house ammo rules have different amounts for MGs and cannon) might work better.
A space for fire and smoke chits also.
A space under the maneuver cards for speed (already mentioned).
A space for the damage chits, but yes, the damage dial removes the need for a +1 space.
Karl

[Oberst Hajj]

Okay, so it sounds like 3 dials might be the way to go. Altitude, Damage, and a Multipurpose dial.

I think you I understand you about the Ace abilities. You are wanting something to track the "recovery" time before you can use that skill again correct?

[Oberst Hajj]

A quick mock up of a "slider" that could be used to track recovery time and special damages...




Whatever counter is being used could be placed in the circle on the left. If you were tracking a fire damage, you would place the fire counter in the circle, move the slider to number 6. Then each time you played a maneuver, you would move the slider down one number until it reached 0. At which point the fire would be out (if you are still in the air!).

I might even replace the 0 with a little thumbs up symbol to show that when used with Ace Skills, that skill is ready to go.

[fast.git]

That's pretty cool... I like the idea of a "Thumbs Up" indicator.

[Oberst Hajj]

The biggest problem I'm seeing is making the thing too crowded.

I think we should be okay size wise. Even with teh larger cards needed for the late war planes, dropping down to just two cards and removing the +1 card slot frees up a bunch of space. I'll start with the same foot print as the Adv WGF Cockpit and see how everything looks and fits. I'll adjust the foot print down in size if we can, but I will not increase it (that would lead to table space issues).

[Thomatchef]

I might be talking stupid now, but I thought there was no +1 damage with WGS. Instead you need to take an extra A-damage token. So that clears up space to use for the sliders. Which look very promising by the way!

[Oberst Hajj]

No, you are correct. It's a +A in WGS and not a +1.... I think we just call it that out of WGF habit.

[Oberst Hajj]

Oh, and would you guys want the speed tokens to stand up in front of the planned cards, or would laying down in front of them work just as well?

[Thomatchef]

Oh, and would you guys want the speed tokens to stand up in front of the planned cards, or would laying down in front of them work just as well?

Mmm good question. Normally you play the speed tokens face down on the planned cards. Maybe that is something to keep but slots to put the unused ones in up right could be handy to see what you have available.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Yep that's the word, recovery, what I'm in desperate need of right now. LOL

Neil

Okay, so it sounds like 3 dials might be the way to go. Altitude, Damage, and a Multipurpose dial.

I think you I understand you about the Ace abilities. You are wanting something to track the "recovery" time before you can use that skill again correct?

[Jager]

A quick mock up of a "slider" that could be used to track recovery time and special damages...




Whatever counter is being used could be placed in the circle on the left. If you were tracking a fire damage, you would place the fire counter in the circle, move the slider to number 6. Then each time you played a maneuver, you would move the slider down one number until it reached 0. At which point the fire would be out (if you are still in the air!).

I might even replace the 0 with a little thumbs up symbol to show that when used with Ace Skills, that skill is ready to go.

I like that!

Oh, and would you guys want the speed tokens to stand up in front of the planned cards, or would laying down in front of them work just as well?

I think laying down would work just fine.
Karl

[Oberst Hajj]

I'm liking the sliders as well... but would more dials better suit the chrome of a WWII fighter cockpit? The design could be changed so the dials look more like aircraft dials.

[Marechallannes]

...

- The airplane card

...

Would you include the Beaufighter and the Bf.110, or will they be banned to the cockpitless multi engine planes.

I think if you solve the problem with the larger size movement cards and the normal size plane cards (P-51D etc.), there shouldn't be a problem with the twin-engined fighters with their normal size movement cards and larger size plane cards.

[Oberst Hajj]

Sven, I had forgot all about those.

[Jager]

I'm pretty sure we don't need to worry about Bomber cockpits, though
But the 2 engine fighters, definitely. (Lightnings and Whirlwinds too )

I'm liking the sliders as well... but would more dials better suit the chrome of a WWII fighter cockpit? The design could be changed so the dials look more like aircraft dials.

Vintage dials would look nice.
Karl

[gully_raker]

A quick mock up of a "slider" that could be used to track recovery time and special damages...




Whatever counter is being used could be placed in the circle on the left. If you were tracking a fire damage, you would place the fire counter in the circle, move the slider to number 6. Then each time you played a maneuver, you would move the slider down one number until it reached 0. At which point the fire would be out (if you are still in the air!).

I might even replace the 0 with a little thumbs up symbol to show that when used with Ace Skills, that skill is ready to go.

I really like this idea Keith & I think everything else has been covered in the posts above.
Look forward to seeing the prototype!

[CappyTom]

Also need a slot for speed counters. At least 5 for the basic game. Also maybe a WW2 plane etched in the base. It looks really nice.

Thomas

[Oberst Hajj]

Man, those larger maneuver cards and twin engine fighter cards really eat up the available space! There is no way I can go smaller and might have to go larger just to fit everything on it.

How many of those generic sliders to you guys thing we should have on this?

[Oberst Hajj]

Let me know what you guys think of this design...

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Just testing to see if we are working in spite of the message at the top of the site.
All I would ask is that the damage dial and damage chit box be put on the same side of the board Keith. This is the only gripe I have about the WWI setup. It still won't stop me buying another one though.
Rob.

[Thomatchef]

Let me know what you guys think of this design...

That is looking very sweet!

One thing. This way you are looking at the cards you have planned. Their are rules (although optional) that state it is forbidden to look at the planned cards. Not sure but think its called "fly by instinct". Never used the rule so I don't really care but with this cockpit this rule becomes hard to use...

But I think it is really sweet and will defenitely buy one (if SWMBO gives approval).

[Oberst Hajj]

Just testing to see if we are working in spite of the message at the top of the site.
All I would ask is that the damage dial and damage chit box be put on the same side of the board Keith. This is the only gripe I have about the WWI setup. It still won't stop me buying another one though.
Rob.

Rob, you can access the site while that message is displayed because you have admin rights... everyone else get's stopped at the front door.

All these years using the WGF Adv Cockpit and I never noticed that the damage dial was on the opposite side from the damage cards. Easy enough to change before I cut the next batch. I did make sure to keep the damage dial above the chits on this one though.

That is looking very sweet!

One thing. This way you are looking at the cards you have planned. Their are rules (although optional) that state it is forbidden to look at the planned cards. Not sure but think its called "fly by instinct". Never used the rule so I don't really care but with this cockpit this rule becomes hard to use...

But I think it is really sweet and will defenitely buy one (if SWMBO gives approval).

Yes, that optional rule would be hard to use with this layout. Putting the two maneuvers and the rest of the deck face down on the base would take up way too much room though. For such a seldom used optional rule, I think I'll stick with them being placed vertically to free up the space. I've already had to move the plane card to a vertical potion just to fit everything I've got on there now.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I can't see a problem with seeing what you've planned (ie movement cards). Are you cutting out the Ace slot(s) altogether?

[Oberst Hajj]

Since WGS uses Ace tokens instead of Ace cards, I've replaced the slots with the multi purpose sliders. Those sliders are designed to allow you to place the correct ace token or special damage type there and then control it with the slider.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

They sure look the bees knees to me Boss.
Put me down for a couple, and I will see if I can get a bank loan for all the new stuff and old that I am going to order as soon as we get back from Rome.
Rob.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Shows you how much I use ace abilities in WGS! Thanks for keeping me right. It's looking very good.

Since WGS uses Ace tokens instead of Ace cards, I've replaced the slots with the multi purpose sliders. Those sliders are designed to allow you to place the correct ace token or special damage type there and then control it with the slider.

[Black Sheep One]

You've got my vote, Keith!

[Marechallannes]

Is the damage dial a good idea?

I don't trust the members of my game group that much.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Is the damage dial a good idea?

I don't trust the members of my game group that much.

Not sporting types then Sven? What what!
Kyte.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I suppose it works the same way with cards and chits. You have to trust the player to indicate when he's down and out. (Unless you are dead lucky and draw a vast amount of zero cards or chits!).

I suppose chits could be kept to one side, as with cards, then turned over at game end to see if it matches the dial. Anyone cheating, well in the end they only cheat themselves, eventually no-one plays with them.

Neil.

[Jager]

I think the idea is to keep the cards/chits (as per the rules) until your shot down or leave the board.
And, yes, if someone is a chronic cheater, they will soon not find anyone who wants them to play.
Karl

[CappyTom]

Let me know what you guys think of this design...

Looks very good. I believe you could also put the speed tokens vertical as well. I really like the fire and smoke counters on the side. If your putting the chits back in the bags then maybe a notch or slot for special damage, like engine or something. Great job Keith.

Thomas

[Oberst Hajj]

Is the damage dial a good idea?

I don't trust the members of my game group that much.

Yes, you would keep the damage chits drawn in the place marked Damage Tokens and keep a running total on the dial. That way you don't have to keep counting how much damage you have taken during the game... just glance at the dial.

[Oberst Hajj]

Still a few things to sort out, but here is what it is looking like so far. The Altitude dial still needs to be done in the new WWII style and I might tweak the other dials some more. I was really trying to give this more of a WWII cockpit feel. What do you guys think so far?

[Oberst Hajj]

Looks very good. I believe you could also put the speed tokens vertical as well. I really like the fire and smoke counters on the side. If your putting the chits back in the bags then maybe a notch or slot for special damage, like engine or something. Great job Keith.

Thomas

My intent is that the special damage chit get placed on the circle next to the slider. The damage chit that caused it goes in the damage token area. Getting the speed tokens to stand up vertically is a bit of a challenge.

[CappyTom]

Still a few things to sort out, but here is what it is looking like so far. The Altitude dial still needs to be done in the new WWII style and I might tweak the other dials some more. I was really trying to give this more of a WWII cockpit feel. What do you guys think so far?

Looking real good. I like the feel of it.

Thomas

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Looks great. I for one am not worried that the speed tokens don't stand up.

[Thomatchef]

Still a few things to sort out, but here is what it is looking like so far. The Altitude dial still needs to be done in the new WWII style and I might tweak the other dials some more. I was really trying to give this more of a WWII cockpit feel. What do you guys think so far?

That it looks superb! One sweet looking cockpit!

What about colors? Not sure if I would fancy white...

Edit: One remark. The symbol for speed tokens comes back often. I see you use it for the movement cards as well. Would it be possible to change that? Maybe a simplified picture of a stick and rudder pedals? This relates more to movement than the symbol for speed. But these are details off course, again it looks sweet!

[Oberst Hajj]

Thanks guys.

For the WGS cockpits, I'm thinking of using black that engraves down to reveal white details. That would mimic the white on black look of most cockpits of the era. The problem there is the material I have to use would have a white "core" and black "facings". This means all of the edges would be white... the exact opposite as what the pictured WGF looks like above. Would that bother anyone?

As to the speed/maneuver icon... the game using that same one for both. That's why I used it for both. But I do (and did when designing it) think it shows up to often. I could easily replace the icons for the deck and speed token box next to it with text saying what goes there. Different icons could also work provided I could make/come up with some nice ones.

[Thomatchef]

Thanks guys.

For the WGS cockpits, I'm thinking of using black that engraves down to reveal white details. That would mimic the white on black look of most cockpits of the era. The problem there is the material I have to use would have a white "core" and black "facings". This means all of the edges would be white... the exact opposite as what the pictured WGF looks like above. Would that bother anyone?

As to the speed/maneuver icon... the game using that same one for both. That's why I used it for both. But I do (and did when designing it) think it shows up to often. I could easily replace the icons for the deck and speed token box next to it with text saying what goes there. Different icons could also work provided I could make/come up with some nice ones.

I wouldn't be bothered and the color is fine for me! The white edges can be easily painted when not liked I think and is something I'll probably do.

I like the use of the icons but as you said yourself the speed icon comes back often. Not sure if text would be nicer.

[Oberst Hajj]

Some more work on the layout. I added in the altitude dial, swapped out some of the speed/maneuver icons for text and added an arrow to show how the selected maneuver cards should slide. I also dropped a little product plaque in the dead space to the left of the multipurpose dials.



I'm thinking about tweaking the three special damage/ace skill circles some. Right now the boarder ring you see would be engraved. This would leave those tokens sitting on top of the cockpit. I'm thinking they might slide around to easily like this. If I engrave that whole area out, then the tokens would sit down in side of the circles a little be and stay put better. My concern with that is that they would then be kind of big round white circles if they did not have a token on them.

Thoughts?

[Flying Helmut]

How about including a black disc with a "pointer" on it for each circle - if this were removable, then a player could leave the pointer disc in place, making the circle appear like a dial, or could remove it when a token needed to be placed there?

[Oberst Hajj]

Not 100% following you on the pointer/dial thing. One think I have to keep in mind is the final cost of this thing. More parts leads to higher costs.

[gully_raker]

Some more work on the layout. I added in the altitude dial, swapped out some of the speed/maneuver icons for text and added an arrow to show how the selected maneuver cards should slide. I also dropped a little product plaque in the dead space to the left of the multipurpose dials.



I'm thinking about tweaking the three special damage/ace skill circles some. Right now the boarder ring you see would be engraved. This would leave those tokens sitting on top of the cockpit. I'm thinking they might slide around to easily like this. If I engrave that whole area out, then the tokens would sit down in side of the circles a little be and stay put better. My concern with that is that they would then be kind of big round white circles if they did not have a token on them.

Thoughts?

I think that looks really great Keith & I think the circles for the recovery chits would be better if hollowed out some but not so you had to dig them out.