Caproni Ca.3 -- Timeline for usage by non-Italian countries?

[Eris Lobo]

I keep reading in places how the Italians first started using the Caproni Ca.3 in mid-1916 on the Eastern Front, and that other countries (France, England and the USA in particular) used the bomber as well.

The problem is that I can't seem to find specifics regarding WHEN and WHERE the non-Italian countries used them. I'm trying to be historical, and I play games mainly set on the Western Front, which is why I'm trying to find an excuse to migrate the Caproni away from the Eastern conflict if possible.

I read somewhere that the British used the Caproni before they got the Handley-Page bombers, but I couldn't find any more details in that regard.

I read somewhere that France didn't get the Caproni until 1918, but again I found no further details.

And I couldn't find anything about when and where the Americans got the Caproni.

Any help in regard to filling in the gaps of my knowledge regarding Capronis would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!!!

Tally ho!!!

-- Eris

[Mau Fox]

Ciao Eris,
the Caproni is a fascinating machine that would deserve a whole forum to discuss.

First we need to distinguish between the several names given to the whole Caproni series.
Let's focus on the one we use in this game: the Ca.3.
Its military designation was Ca.3, post-war designation refers to this model as Ca.33 but pilots and service men used to refer to it as Ca.450 by its engines horsepower.
So, finding some informations on the Net could be difficult or misleading for a non Italian speaker.

Having said that and in order to give you some quick hints, here are a few informations:

About the British, sources say that 6 Caproni Ca.42 were issued to Royal Naval Air Service Squadron N°227 in April, 1918.
But this is the Caproni Ca.40, a different machine compared to our Ca.3 as it was a triplane.

About the French, they used Caproni Ca.1 Bombers since February 1916.
These were built under license in Lyon-Montplaisis by R.E.P. (Robert Esnault Pelterie) and in Villeneuve-Triage by S.A.I.B.
With these bombers renamed C.E.P. (Caproni Esnault Pelterie), in Feb 1916, was formed the Escadrille CEP 115 of Groupe de Bombardement GB.1 located in Nancy-Malzeville. Its first war mission was on June 22, 1916. Later in august 1917 was also formed the Escadrille CEP 130 of GB.2.
No commercial agreement was reached about the Ca.450 (our Ca.3) so Italy sold 44 Ca.3 Bombers to France in summer 1917 under the designation CAP.2 BN.2 (CAP stands for Caproni) hence renaimg the two above mentioned Escadrille in CAP 115 and CAP 130.
By explicit application of French G.H.Q, on 27 December 1917, in Taliedo (Italy) was formed the XVIII Gruppo da Bombardamento formed by Italian Squadriglie 3rd, 14th and 15th intended to operate on the French-German front. On 19 February 1918 the Gruppo moved to France under Escadre 11 along side the mentioned GB.1 and GB.2.
Their operational bases were Ochey, Chernisey, Villeneuve-les-Vertus and, late on war, Epiez and Ferme des Greves.
From these bases the caproni were employed, night and day, in bombing crucial crossroads, train stations and troop concentrations.
German cities such as Ludwigshafen, Colonia, Stoccarda and Friedrichshafen were bombed as well.

About the American. At the end of 1917 about 4/500 American pilots were sent to Italy in order to train on the Caproni bombers. Their training field was in Foggia hence the nickname "foggiani" used by the Italians to refer to American bomber pilots. You can find a nice story here:
http://www.historynet.com/world-war-...s-in-italy.htm

The above sources are from this site, unfortunately only in Italian, but it has some nice pics and color schemes:

http://www.aereimilitari.org/Storia/IGM/Caproni_1.htm
http://www.aereimilitari.org/Storia/IGM/Caproni_6.htm
http://www.aereimilitari.org/Storia/IGM/Caproni_4.htm
http://www.aereimilitari.org/Storia/IGM/Caproni_2.htm
http://www.aereimilitari.org/Storia/IGM/Caproni_5.htm
http://www.aereimilitari.org/Storia/IGM/Caproni_3.htm

Hope this help, ciao!

Mau.

[Dom S]

Good summary. I'll echo the point on the British - while there are lots of places that say the Ca.3 was used by the British (including its wikipedia entry at the moment) I've never seen a shred of evidence for this. 6 of the bigger Ca.42 triplanes were used by the RNAS (probably for anti-submarine patrols rather than against ground targets) and there's a photograph knocking around of one of those (oops, just found it - make that 4 of them - I'd forgotten it was a flight line shot), but not the Ca.3.

[Baldrick62]

I keep reading in places how the Italians first started using the Caproni Ca.3 in mid-1916 on the Eastern Front,

And in addition to echoing what Mau and Dom have said, the Italians used the Caproni on the Italian Front; the 'Eastern Front' refers to Russia.

[Chris Maes]

Several squadrons of Italian Capronis were assigned to support the American offensive in the Meuse-Argonne, under Billy Mitchell's command. I found this to be quite interesting, as I had no idea that any Italian units served on the western front.

Chris

[Eris Lobo]

Thanks for all the help! Everybody's responses have gotten me more interested in the air war over the Italian Front (as opposed to the "Eastern Front", which I mistakenly called it. ), and now I'll be planning on running a few scenarios in that sector of the Great War.

To make sure I've got it right, the Italians flew the Caproni Ca.3 against Austro-Hungary from mid-1916 until the end of the war, correct?

And the Italians provided France with Caproni Ca.3's at that time, so France was able to use the Caproni Ca.3 on the Western Front in limited numbers from mid-1916 until the end of the war, correct?

The French apparently returned the favor and provided the Italians with several notable aircraft, including the SPAD VII and the SPAD XIII. That's good for my game play, because I don't have a Hanriot HD.1 yet, and so I'll be using SPADs as fighter escorts in its absence.

FYI, I found out that the Austro-Hungarian forces had their own counter to the Caproni bomber -- the Germans fitted some Gotha G.IV's specifically for their Austro-Hungarian allies in 1917, and with it the Germans gave them some good fighters, including the Albatros D.III (which was greatly appreciated by the Austro-Hungarian aces).

From my research, it seems that for all intents and purposes regarding game play, the Gotha G.IV had the same structure and performed identically to the Gotha G.V, so I think the Gotha G.V can be used right out of the box to represent the Gotha G.IV in scenarios over the Italian front.

And although there were a few differences here and there, from what I could find out regarding performance and other statistics, the Gotha G.V could also directly represent in game play the Gotha G.III. Knowing that the Gotha G.III was flown over the Western front by the Germans in late 1916, I think it would be perfect to use in some scenarios with other early craft.

Can you tell I love bomber scenarios?

If anybody disagrees with my conclusions, I would LOVE to know, because more than anything I want to know the correct history and not be using wrong assumptions.

Thanks! See you in the skies!!!

-- Eris

[Edit] p.s. We just now played a scenario set in the last few weeks of the Battle of the Somme. A French Caproni Ca.3, escorted by a SPAD VII, crossed the lines in an attempt to execute a bombing run against a concentration of German troops. The French invaders, though, were skillfully met by an Albatros DII leading two Fokker E.IV's. (A Fokker E.IV has greater firepower than a Fokker E.III but is less maneuverable.) Fortunately for the Germans, the bomber failed to hit its target. During the resulting battle, however, everybody was shot down except one of the Fokker E.IV's, who limped home with a pilot wound, a smoking engine, and only one damage point left. A rather exciting game, I'd say!

[Mau Fox]

Ciao Eris and all fellow pilots,
cool scenario indeed and lots of fun but, as I said, it's not easy to untangle the "jungle" of numbers and abbreviations so I will try to be a bit more clear.
Also, you will forgive my English .

Neither Italy nor France did use the Ca.3 (our mini) before June 1917.

Before that timeline both France and Italy did use the Ca.1 Caproni Bomber.
Its "numbers" are Ca.1 for military, Ca.32 for the post-war renumber, Ca.300 unofficially for pilots and service men as its three engines were 3x100 horsepower.

Now, "what if" I would like to use the gorgeous Caproni Ca.3 mini before Summer 1917?
Since tha Caproni Ca.1 had only three crew (two pilots and the front gunner) I would simply "remove" the rear gunner and maybe add a few more escorts.
I never played with the giants as at the moment I don't own any of these but I think I would love to play with the Ca.1 configuration.
Expecially if I had a couple of Spad VII watching my six.

Guys, I am a Spad VII lover, no matter its B Deck.
Its wonderful climb rate allows me to face the Albatros D.III A Deck scoring several "Firing from Above" +1 bonus.

If you guys want to add some "spicy" flavour when using the Ca.3 from summer 1917 till the end of the war, you have to know that these bombers had several weapons combo on board.
One Ca.1 and several Ca.3 were armed with a front 37mm MG and other Ca.3 were armed with twin Fiat 1914 MGs in the rear gunner position.
Hence I would give the C Damage Deck for the 37 mm front MG and/or the A Damage Deck for the twin rear MGs. Lots of fireworks over there!

Thank you for reading, ciao!

Mau.

[Angiolillo]

Speaking about Caproni Bombers of the Italian "Regio Esercito", 3a Squadriglia and 14th Squdriglia transferred to France on the 9th of January 1918 and operated there till the end of the war. More or less in the same days 15th Squadriglia reached the French front. So you can use Caproni with Italin colors on the Western front.
The 12a Squadriglia has been formed in Tripoli and operated in Lybia well after 1918, when the 13a Squadriglia joins it in operations against the rebels opposing Italian occupation.
I do not know if this is a complete list or there are other units operating abroad.
Several US crewmen operated on the Italian front but, as far as I know, on planes belonging to Italian units and usually with mixed Italian/US crews. Fiorello La Guardia among them. This is why his plane, soon to be released, has Italian cockades even if it shows the US crest on the fuselages.

[Angiolillo]

To units serving abroad I can add 11a Squadriglia, that was founded to operate in Albania and was there since the 25th of August, 1916.
The previous color scheme of our Italian Caproni belongs to that unit. One of them was the 3rd victim of the Austrian ace Bela Macourek, commander of Flick 6, on the 6th of July 1918 when the bomber got too distant from its escort of Italian and British fighters.

[prymus]

Also, you will forgive my English .

Your English is much better than my Italian Mau. And yet again, thanks for the info all.