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Thread: New Pic of the B-17

  1. #1

    Default New Pic of the B-17

    This just in...


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    Very nice!!! Thanks for sharing, John!

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    Beautiful models that I won't buy. Sorry.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

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    Beautiful planes!

    But not Battle of Britain participants. So, without a bigger budget and storage facility, not in my collecting plan. Darn!

    Mike

  7. #7

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    Beautiful!.... I want them and the Lancaster......but how much?

  8. #8

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    Nice big Birds ! My 190D are waiting for them, as well as my P-51.

    I'll get those for sure, and the two Lancaster too ! My banker is going to hate me

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    Spoke to soon in the above thread. They look fantastic. I can't wait to see what all the great painters do to them. Thanks for the pic John & Daniel.

  10. #10

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    Checked out the ARES site and no news about these. Any idea when we may see them?

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    Thank you for the good pictures. The machine guns look a bit bulky but I suppose that is necessary for manufacture.

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    Thumbs up

    More great minis!
    Definitely have to get the early model for my Pacific games.

    I thought they were going to do the Memphis Belle.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbmacek View Post
    This just in...

    Old Belle is going to need some some paint on those engine cowlings, and a little gunmetal on the Ma Dueces. Other than that, pretty spank-tastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    I thought they were going to do the Memphis Belle.
    That is the Belle, 124485.



    Here's the Belle today...it's about a ninety minute drive from where I live. I still have the airshow program Captain Morgan signed from the Lancaster, Ohio airshow, years ago.






    Linda Morgan and General Metcalf
    DAYTON, Ohio -- "Memphis Belle"™ pilot's widow, Linda Morgan, talks with museum director Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Charles D. Metcalf during her first visit to see the "Memphis Belle" at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force. (U.S. Air Force photo)
    Last edited by kaufschtick; 03-28-2014 at 18:58.

  14. #14

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    I have yet to visit the Refurbishing project at the USAF Museum... but for some reason I thought the museum had moved further along with it. Nice pics Rob!
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

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    Wowsers! Love these "17s"! Saw them yesterday morning on Facebook and stared in shock at how awesome they are coming along. As a quick note, it mentioned in the accompanying caption that these were preproduction models and more work was yet to be done on them. I am guessing some paint issues around the engines and cowlings as well as finalized gun barrels. The current ones are awful and probably there for visual and hopefully do not reflect the finalized barrels.

    My guess is we have these beauties in our hands the fourth quarter this year. I want these and the Lancs badly, question is how much? I would love three of each 17 and 2 of each Lanc but may be limited by cost.

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    Smile

    I'm sure the B-17s will be in high demand as folks are going to want to buy enough for small formations.

    The Lancasters are gorgeous! Night missions?

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    I,M guessing at least £25 each here in the UK, probably much cheaper everywhere else as usual.

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    This just in, Ares has posted on their Facebook page that they hope to have the bombers out in the third quarter of this year and in time for Gencon. Based on prior release dates, I remain skeptical that the general release will be by Gencon, but I am willing to bet it will be like last year, where they had some of the new WGS Mustangs, Franks etc for sale. So hopefully those of you who can attend Gencon will be able to purchase some and post pics! Then again, maybe we all get lucky and they come to market when Ares hopes.

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    Thanks for the news Daniel. Can wait a few more months for these and gives me time to save up. I like that there is F and G model.

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    [QUOTE=gully_raker;282302] More great minis!
    Definitely have to get the early model for my Pacific games.QUOTE]

    Thinking exactly the same way Barry.

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    Smile

    [QUOTE=kaufschtick;282308]Old Belle is going to need some some paint on those engine cowlings, and a little gunmetal on the Ma Dueces. Other than that, pretty spank-tastic!



    That is the Belle, 124485.



    Thanks for pointing that out.
    It was just that the nose art visible in the pic looked more like a Boot that a Belle!

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I posted this on another thread but here is a photo of the Memphis Belle I took last year.

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    I'm curious for the plane card of the B-17.

    I'm not shure if there will be a co-pilot.



    Do you think this is the final base size of the bomber?

    Looks like the base of a B-25 Mitchell to me.
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by P-51D View Post
    Wowsers! Love these "17s"! I am guessing some paint issues around the engines and cowlings as well as finalized gun barrels. The current ones are awful and probably there for visual and hopefully do not reflect the finalized barrels.
    Yes lets hope those guns are smaller in the production models or I will have to replace them with 0.5 plastic rod which would be an inconvience and limit the number I get!

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I posted this on another thread but here is a photo of the Memphis Belle I took last year.
    Sorry, the Memphis Belle is a little near and dear to me, so I hope I don't come across too badly here; but...

    That is not the Memphis Belle; but rather, the "The Movie" Memphis Belle, used in the movie of the same name. That's a whole different B-17 there; you can clearly see "The Movie" above the name. It is a hollywood repaint/mock-up. You'd think hollywood could at least get it right that the right side "Belle" was red...



    Linda Morgan and Bud Brinkmeyer
    DAYTON, Ohio -- "Memphis Belle"™ pilot's widow, Linda Morgan, and Bud Brinkmeyer visit the "Memphis Belle" at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force. (U.S. Air Force photo)




    Only the left side "Belle" was blue...



    Looks like, during the restoration, that only the left side original nose art was saved.



    The right side, for some unknown reason, seems to have been lost during the restoration. Although, the left side, being closer to the heart, would be the one to save given the choice of the two, IMHO. Just my .02 cents though...





    Again, I hope I don't come across bad with this post ; it's just the Memphis Belle is a special plane to me. It's not the actual airplane either, but the people it represents, that holds near and dear to my heart. Aircrew, ground crew, everyone in the 91st BG(H), the Mighty Eighth, and the entire U.S.A.A.F.

    Oh yeah, I almost forgot! Here is a little gem of info for those that don't already know it, too...

    The "Hell's Angels" B-17 (41-24577) of the 303rd Bomb Group completed 25 combat missions on 13 May 1943, becoming the first B-17 to complete the feat, one week before the Memphis Belle.



    Last edited by kaufschtick; 04-05-2014 at 19:38.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaufschtick View Post
    Sorry, the Memphis Belle is a little near and dear to me, so I hope I don't come across too badly here; but...

    ...

    Again, I hope I don't come across bad with this post ; it's just the Memphis Belle is a special plane to me. It's not the actual airplane either, but the people it represents, that holds near and dear to my heart. Aircrew, ground crew, everyone in the 91st BG(H), the Mighty Eighth, and the entire U.S.A.A.F.
    We are not on a burial here, Rob.

    Thank you for the information.

    Didn't knew that the Memphis Belle had two different girls on the nose.

    Interesting detail, that the names of the crew were wrote on the fuselage/position of each man. Was it a commandment?

    What's that big lone Hakenkreuz (swastika) near ther rear side of the blue girl standing for?
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  28. #28

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    Yes I know it is not the real Belle and was a converted G for the movie. Also that the real one was on display in Memphis and was in such bad shape that the AF took it back and is restoring her. Looks like the movie version has the colors wrong as they are on different sides. I don't know but maybe that was done on purpose to show that this plane was not the real one.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaufschtick View Post
    Sorry, the Memphis Belle is a little near and dear to me,
    OK -- then perhaps you can explain this to me: There's a lone swastika under the navigator's window, separate from the ones under the bombing-mission symbols; what's the significance, if any?

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaufschtick View Post
    Old Belle is going to need some some paint on those engine cowlings, and a little gunmetal on the Ma Dueces. Other than that, pretty spank-tastic!



    That is the Belle, 124485.



    Here's the Belle today...it's about a ninety minute drive from where I live. I still have the airshow program Captain Morgan signed from the Lancaster, Ohio airshow, years ago.






    Linda Morgan and General Metcalf
    DAYTON, Ohio -- "Memphis Belle"™ pilot's widow, Linda Morgan, talks with museum director Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Charles D. Metcalf during her first visit to see the "Memphis Belle" at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force. (U.S. Air Force photo)
    Where it should be. Shameful what happened to it in Memphis.

  31. #31

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    Thanks for sharing, great close ups

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by STL06 View Post
    Where it should be. Shameful what happened to it in Memphis.
    Well, it's good to see that plane being restored.

    My grandfather worked at Wright-Patterson during WWII and one of his jobs was to repair battle damaged B-17s (as well as other battle damaged ac). My grandfather used to tell me when I was young, in our many trips to the Air Force Museum, that his buddies and he could change an engine on a B-17 in 15 minutes!

    One time when we were there, he looked at me and said to me, "You don't believe me." He pointed to the screws around a panel of one of the planes you could get close enough to to touch, and if I remember right, this particular time it was the B-24 Strawberry Bitch, (although it seems to me it was a B-17, I think they maybe had another one there before the Shoo-Shoo Baby (?)) and told me to take a look at what type of screw driver I thought it would require to unscrew the screws to access the panel. I said it looked like it was going to take a big flathead screwdriver. He said yes, but it was designed to work with a standard US quarter dollar coin. He said in the field, the crews might be short on the propper tools, and so it was made to also work with improvised items. He looked at me and proclaimed that I did not believe him, and in a flash he had produced a quarter and began to take the screw out of the plane! I was very young, and I told him he was going to get the two of us in hot water if he didn't stop it and put the screw back in! LOL, he used to love to tell his buddies that story and of the panic it caused it me!

    My grandfather loved the B-17s, and I was fortunate enough to get to hear countless stories and details and facts about B-17s, as well as a lot of other WWII planes. My grandfather used to tell me about a fighter at the end of the war he was involved in helping to design, called the P-75 Eagle. At some point, one turned up in the museum annex.

    My grandfather used to go on and on about the Memphis Belle, and as a young child, it was through my grandfather that I first heard of the Memphis Belle, which is why it is such a special plane to me. My Grandfather used to proclaim to me how the B-17 was the best airplane ever built. I used to hear the most amazing stories of the damage some of the planes used to take, and still bring their crews back.

    All of those photos of the Belle are on the United States Air Force Museum website. It's too bad that my Grandfather is not still around, I'd love to have been able to go see it with him, when they get it completed. Although he'd probably just get us arrested trying to prove to me that he could change an engine in no time flat!
    Last edited by kaufschtick; 04-07-2014 at 21:05.

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    Thanks for that Kaufschtick the ground crews are always forgoton about its nice to hear things from their view point.

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    Rob great story and I see why you feel close to the plane. I had an uncle who was a radio op and a cousin who was the flight engineer on B-17. I don't remember them ever telling stories. An oral history that I wish I had today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaufschtick View Post
    My grandfather used to tell me about a fighter at the end of the war he was involved in helping to design, called the P-75 Eagle.
    Ah, yes, the fighter designed and built solely so General Motors wouldn't have to build B-29s....

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Ah, yes, the fighter designed and built solely so General Motors wouldn't have to build B-29s....
    I can't comment on the background story on that, I'm sure you know more about that.

    All I know is that my grandfather was involved in the design of the plane. However, I'm pretty sure his motivation in the project was not to get out of building B-29s.

    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    OK -- then perhaps you can explain this to me: There's a lone swastika under the navigator's window, separate from the ones under the bombing-mission symbols; what's the significance, if any?
    Just now seeing this. My guess would be an aerial victory on an enemy fighter claimed from the crewman at that position. But that's a fairly obvious guess, so it must not be the case. I'm guessing you know some nifty tidbit of information regarding that, so why don't you go ahead and educate all of us on what it is?
    Last edited by kaufschtick; 04-09-2014 at 11:39.

  37. #37

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    I have to agree with you Rob. Since he would man a MG he would get credit for shooting down a plane.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaufschtick View Post
    I can't comment on the background story on that, I'm sure you know more about that.
    The story, as I've read it: During the War, the US Gov't could force any company into a consortium to build what the Gov't wanted built for the war effort. General Motors, being the largest manufacturer in the USA (tho' Ford would argue the claim), had been sucked into not a few of these consortiums. It was decided by USAAF Materiel Command (who coordinated production) that yet another would be required to build B-29s; while not a few other corporations were already involved in the -29 consortium, Materiel wanted GM involved as well. GM, contrariwise, did *not* want to take part, feeling it was already overcommitted; but the only way GM could avoid being forced to participate was if it had a higher-priority project already in the works. Enter the "Fisher Eagle" (GM's Fisher Body division was building it "officially") -- Materiel signed off on letting GM try to produce an airplane built around an engine which was essentially two Allison V-1710s on a common driveshaft. The project was then allowed to drag on for two years, with many delays and overruns, while at the same time producing a "fighter" which was slow and handled like a cinderblock. (And this from a plane made from spare parts -- wings of a P-40; landing gear of a Corsair; tail of an Dauntless.) The project was finally cancelled -- but by that point, the B-29 production lines were up to speed, and bringing GM onboard would have taken too long; so GM was allowed to on about its business. End result: The P-75 succeeded in the one task it was intended to perform -- prevent General Motors joining the B-29 consortium.

    I'm *pretty* sure your relative was *not* at a high-enough level in GM to have known anything about this. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by kaufschtick View Post
    Just now seeing this. My guess would be an aerial victory on an enemy fighter claimed from the crewman at that position. But that's a fairly obvious guess, so it must not be the case. I'm guessing you know some nifty tidbit of information regarding that, so why don't you go ahead and educate all of us on what it is?
    Not really, no -- that's why I was asking why it was off to one side instead of being with all the others. :)

  39. #39

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    From another forum and a different thread, dated April 9th, 2010:

    "To introduce myself, I am co-author of 'Memphis Belle - Dispelling the Myths' and this thread was brought to my attention by a friend of mine. Indeed, the 'Belle was originally going to be called 'Little One' but the original 'Petty Girl' artwork was put on by an unidentified artist before the aircraft left for the UK - and yes, the swimsuit was red one side, blue the other. Tony Starcer only 'touched up' the artwork when the aircraft was at Station 121 Bassingbourn.

    The unofficial aspect to the colour scheme is where the minefield lies - and it has two major aspects.

    The line of bomb symbols on the nose have some red and yellow stars above them, but original photographs show the stars in different positions port and starboard - this evolved as each mission was flown. The stars themselves are all highly suspect - the yellow stars, for missions 7, 8, 10, 16, 17, and 19 appear to show that the aircraft was lead ship for the 91st BG on those raids. The red stars, for missions 11, 12, 13, 15, 18 and 21 should show when the Memphis Belle was lead ship for the entire force. However, one of a series of Mission Summaries for the 91st BG we have in our possession gives the name of the Group Leader for each mission, and the tail number of the aircraft he was aboard, but on a number of missions denoted by the 'stars' on 41-24485 show this is not the case! For example, Missions ten, eleven and twelve show stars, suggesting that the Memphis Belle was at least Group Leader, yet the Mission Summary shows other aircraft in that role. Then on March 8th, the 91st BG Mission Summary shows Colonel Wray again Group Leader aboard the Memphis Belle. That day Bob Morgan was not flying. In the pilot’s seat was Captain Gaitley, but after two hours ten minutes, the aircraft and crew returned to Bassingbourn with #1 engine out - an abortive mission.

    So are the stars wrong - or is it wrong to link the stars to a particular mission as painted on the side of the aircraft? Is the Mission Summary in error? We looked again at the two scoreboards. It seemed that there were two phases to this - the period at Bassingbourn when the aircraft actually flew the officially credited twenty-five missions and the period leading up to the aircraft’s return to the USA. The more we researched, the more we thought that the last three stars were added as part of the entire ‘cleaning up and preparation exercise’ that the aircraft went through in preparation for the US Tour by members of the US Army Air Force Public Relations team that took over once the aircraft and it's returning crew were transferred away from the 91st Bomb Group.

    Then we come to the swaztikas on the nose. Photographic evidence - and we have well over 2000 images of the Belle (it was probably THE most photographed aircraft of World War Two) clearly shows that there was never eight swaztikas neatly painted on the nose of the aircraft under the bomb symbols during the combat phase - photographic evidence clearly shows that they were only added there after the last mission was flown. During the combat phase, the tail gunner’s position had two, one for each of Quinlan’s claims. There was one under one of the nose windows, almost certainly for Vince Evans' claim, and two more under one of the waist windows. The Eight Swaztikas were not on the aircraft when the aircraft was inspected by the King and Queen at Bassingbourn on 26th May - but they were there when the aircraft was inspected by Generals Eaker and Devers at Bovingdon on 9th June 1943.

    In fact, there is very good evidence that the gunners on board the Memphis Belle never shot down eight enemy aircraft - what those eight swaztikas show is an 'overall total of enemy aircraft destroyed by the aircraft and it's returning crew' - a subtle, but very important difference.

    So, is this all important? I guess it depends how pedantic you wish to be, and how important you regard recording history as accurately as possible. Certainly during our research we have found three distinct 'phases' to the Memphis Belle's colour scheme. Combat, pre-return to the USA, which includes the adding of the ground-crew names and missions flown on the vertical fin in yellow (almost certainly done at Bovingdon just prior to departure back to the USA), and then the War Bond Scheme which evolved with the addition of literally thousands of signatures, some large, some small.

    If anyone would like further information about a particular aspect, I will gladly do my best to answer any questions!

    Graham M Simons"
    Last edited by kaufschtick; 04-10-2014 at 08:07.

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaufschtick View Post
    From another forum and a different thread, dated April 9th, 2010:

    "Then we come to the swaztikas on the nose. Photographic evidence - and we have well over 2000 images of the Belle (it was probably THE most photographed aircraft of World War Two) clearly shows that there was never eight swaztikas neatly painted on the nose of the aircraft under the bomb symbols during the combat phase - photographic evidence clearly shows that they were only added there after the last mission was flown. During the combat phase, the tail gunner’s position had two, one for each of Quinlan’s claims. There was one under one of the nose windows, almost certainly for Vince Evans' claim, and two more under one of the waist windows. The Eight Swaztikas were not on the aircraft when the aircraft was inspected by the King and Queen at Bassingbourn on 26th May - but they were there when the aircraft was inspected by Generals Eaker and Devers at Bovingdon on 9th June 1943."
    OK -- about what I suspected.

  41. #41

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    Aha, that the reason for the lone marking under the window.
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by P-51D View Post
    This just in, Ares has posted on their Facebook page that they hope to have the bombers out in the third quarter of this year and in time for Gencon. ....
    Latest "release date"?

    ARES News

    Mike

  43. #43

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    Ares is saying July. That remains to be seen though.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Beautiful planes!

    But not Battle of Britain participants. So, without a bigger budget and storage facility, not in my collecting plan. Darn!

    Mike
    nor mine, but look great.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaufschtick View Post
    I said it looked like it was going to take a big flathead screwdriver. He said yes, but it was designed to work with a standard US quarter dollar coin. He said in the field, the crews might be short on the proper tools, and so it was made to also work with improvised items.
    And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the kind of typically US engineering genius that won WWII. I reserve such language for special occasions, but this was bloody brilliant.

  46. #46

    Question

    So how come "Hells Angels" never got the kudos that the Belle received.
    I had never ever heard that story before?

  47. #47

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    Maybe "Memphis Belle" sounds better for a propaganda or war bonds campaign in the USA of the forties, Barry.

    Just a guess...
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the kind of typically US engineering genius that won WWII. I reserve such language for special occasions, but this was bloody brilliant.
    "Improvisation was the watchword." [Caption of a Bob Stevens cartoon showing two US personnel standing over the nose-gear of a bomber; one of the normal tires has been replaced by a Jeep wheel, and visible in the background is the line commander's Jeep which "donated" it....]

    And which German was it said something to the effect of "Americans are immune to the chaos of war, as they practice it all the time"? ;)

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
    Yes I know it is not the real Belle and was a converted G for the movie.
    Sally B out of Duxford being the G in question.

    She bears her own art port side and the 'Belle's starboard and a yellow and black checkerboard cowling in memory of the guy who was responsible for getting her flying again. The chin turret is now back in place but she is still in olive Drab rather than the natural metal she wore when I was younger.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    So how come "Hells Angels" never got the kudos that the Belle received.
    'The Memphis Belle, a 91stBG(H) B-17, sometimes reputed to claim the first 25-mission feat, completed its 25th mission on 19 May 1943, six days after the Hell's Angels. The Memphis Belle was, however, the first 8th AF B-17 to complete 25 missions and be returned to the United States.' http://www.303rdbg.com/missionreports/ha-vs-mb.pdf

    So 'Memphis Belle' was in the public eye and memory, while 'Hell's Angels' was not.

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