BIG NEWS: Sopwith Camel Handling -- MYTH BUSTED!

[Naharaht]

May I ask whether you tried flat 'rudder only' hard right turns in addition to banking right turns?

[David Manley]

Except the observed handling is also wrong (do not get me started on the unreliability of "eyewitness testimony") -- what people thought they saw was not what was actually happening.

So what was actually happening?

[Flo]

At what speeds where the tests performed? The reason Im asking is this: After playing rise of flight (ok just a sim) for the first time I was astonished how little speed reserve these biplanes have compared to other (simulated-) planes. So all dogfights in this game happen more or less close to stall speed. Maybe at such slow speeds torque and aerodynamic forces where in completely different relation than at cruising speed.

[john snelling]

So what was actually happening?

I have a hard time believing one source when there are many different sources (some of pilots that actually flew the plane) that say the same thing. I wonder what the pilots that were killed in flying accidents in the Camel would say? Camels did have a larger percentage of KIFA than most other planes.

[Jager]

At what speeds where the tests performed? The reason Im asking is this: After playing rise of flight (ok just a sim) for the first time I was astonished how little speed reserve these biplanes have compared to other (simulated-) planes. So all dogfights in this game happen more or less close to stall speed. Maybe at such slow speeds torque and aerodynamic forces where in completely different relation than at cruising speed.

Interesting, since at least a couple sources I read had pilots flying both repros and restored saying that there was a good amount of reserve engine power. Specifically, they didn't slow down greatly in turns.
Karl

[Flo]

Well first I have to say it is a sim, and I dont think any sim can catch it 100% today, and I have no clue how realistic it realy is. But on the other hand you dont care if you fall out of the sky if you do something stupid. This drop in speed probably isnt really a problem/noticable when you are just cruising around, but when you try to stay on a Dr.1s tail in a Spad XIII it becomes noticable. So long story short I think it is a big difference if you are flying a replica for recreation/airshow/whatever after flying for 1000h+ or if you had about 50h in the air (and than you where already an experienced pilot), somebody is after you with a machinegun or two and all you have for protection is a little wood, canvas and probably your fueltank.
As for reserve engine power: All WWI scouts had approximately the same hp to weight ratio as a Cessna 172 (roughly 200hp/ton empty), I dont think there is much reserve for a fighter plane (the fighter is the importent word here).

[csadn]

I have a hard time believing one source when there are many different sources (some of pilots that actually flew the plane) that say the same thing.

One million people saying "I can flap my arms and fly" verus one person with Actual Data proving it's impossible for a human to flap his arms and fly....

I wonder what the pilots that were killed in flying accidents in the Camel would say? Camels did have a larger percentage of KIFA than most other planes.

Probably "This thing should have been built in a two-seat trainer version".

[David Manley]

One million people saying "I can flap my arms and fly" verus one person with Actual Data proving it's impossible for a human to flap his arms and fly....

Not really, a whole load of operators describing what they experienced. Not the same thing at all. The cause may well not be what they thought it was, but the effect could quite well be what they observed and reported

[Naharaht]

Watch this video of a Sopwith Camel fitted with an original rotary engine. It seems to me that the right hand turns are tighter than the left hand ones and it was not in combat conditions. Notice also the short take-off run and the use of 'blipping' the engine to reduce speed because there was no throttle.