Need help with RAF squadron/flight organization

[horsepyre]

Hi all,

I ordered some decals from mehulsa's 1/144 Direct on Ebay to put together a flight of Bristol Fighters using the Harvey/Waight model as the original.

The other Aerodrome has pretty extensive info on 22 Squadron, including serial numbers for most of the notable aces of the squadron (e.g., Samuel "Siffy" Thompson and his observer frequently flew in E2477 or E2243).

Here's what I can't quite figure out. The Harvey/Waight bird is E2466, and has an "I" on the side. What flight was that plane a part of? I would guess "B" Flight (approx. six planes to a flight, I being the tenth letter of the alphabet), but if that's the case, why does the aircraft serial start with an E (E-2466)?

Is the serial on the tail at all related to the letter on the side of the aircraft?

Anyway, the point of all this is that I want to put together three planes from 22 Squadron, preferably from the same flight as Harvey/Waight, but I don't know enough about RAF squadron organization to do it. Can anyone help???

Thanks in advance!!!

[Flying Helmut]

Thought I'd try to help out, but have ended up as confused as you!

"British Aviation Squadron Markings of World War 1" by Les Rogers, pub. Schiffer Military History, has 22 squadron operating Brisfits in 3 flights:-
'A' Flight using A,B,C,D,E,F with red wheel covers
'B' Flight using G,H,J,K,L,M with white wheel covers
'C' Flight using N,O,P,Q,R,S with blue wheel covers
Thus, no aircraft 'I' appears in this organisation, but on the following page there is a close-up photograph of a plane, captioned "Bristol F2b 'I'! The photo show the upper two-thirds of the letter, but, crucially, not the lower third. The tail fin is not included in the picture, so no serial number can be confirmed.

Speculation: either
a) the book is incorrect, and 'I' should be included in the Flight rosta, or
b) the letter on the plane in the photograph is in fact a 'J', the lower "hook" being out of view

The white wheel covers denote this aircraft is a 'B' flight plane.

<< also, this book states that all 22 squadron aircraft should have the ID letter displayed on the centre section of the upper wing - I suppose the extra Lewis gun gets in the way. >>

[Flying Helmut]

Just found my copy of Osprey's "Bristol F 2 Fighter Aces of World War 1" by Jon Guttman - didn't even know I had ordered it!!!
Page 39 has a colour rendition of the exact same model as produced by Ares ; 'I' E-2466. Unfortunately, the notes accompanying the picture don't give any information about the Flight.
Interestingly, the notes state that Harvey invented the top wing forward gun mounting for this plane, but, after all that metal interfered with the trailing-edge wing compass, he discarded it after just ONE FLIGHT! So, unless you are going to fly that one sortie, over and over again, you should really remove the top wing gun!
I think further citation is needed before reaching for the scalpel, but I may well have to remove the gun on my Brisfit now!

[horsepyre]

Thought I'd try to help out, but have ended up as confused as you!

"British Aviation Squadron Markings of World War 1" by Les Rogers, pub. Schiffer Military History, has 22 squadron operating Brisfits in 3 flights:-
'A' Flight using A,B,C,D,E,F with red wheel covers
'B' Flight using G,H,J,K,L,M with white wheel covers
'C' Flight using N,O,P,Q,R,S with blue wheel covers
Thus, no aircraft 'I' appears in this organisation, but on the following page there is a close-up photograph of a plane, captioned "Bristol F2b 'I'! The photo show the upper two-thirds of the letter, but, crucially, not the lower third. The tail fin is not included in the picture, so no serial number can be confirmed.

Speculation: either
a) the book is incorrect, and 'I' should be included in the Flight rosta, or
b) the letter on the plane in the photograph is in fact a 'J', the lower "hook" being out of view

The white wheel covers denote this aircraft is a 'B' flight plane.

<< also, this book states that all 22 squadron aircraft should have the ID letter displayed on the centre section of the upper wing - I suppose the extra Lewis gun gets in the way. >>

Wow, thanks for all the great info!!!

So, besides the mysterious aircraft I, the other B Flight planes would be G,H,J,K,L,M? Any chance we know who flew in those planes ordinarily? It seems like every pilot in 22 Squadron was a famous ace, but I'd prefer to do three planes from the same flight if possible...

Thanks again for the info, this is great

[gully_raker]

The E in the serial number has no relevance to Flights. Serial Nos. usually had a prefix letter donating build groups.

[Dom S]

What they said, basically.... Harvey / Waight's machine is invariably referred to as "I" but this may be a case of everyone following the same flawed assumption, as I've never seen a photo that confirms it. Some British squadrons used an "I" but in general it was avoided, and B flights lettered G, H, J, K, L, M, as I could easily be mistaken for 1, and some units had numbered flights as well as lettered ones. As Tim said, Les Rogers' heavyweight masterpiece on British Markings does cite this as the case for 22 squadron, so my suspicion is that this machine should be J, not I - must admit I've been playing around with decals for 22 since forever, so today's delivery (fingers crossed....) may add some urgency to that project....

PS - As well as the ID letter in white on the wing centre section, it was repeated as a black disk under the lower left wing.

PPS - Also bear in mind that serial numbers were applied on production, and unique to a specific machine, while the big ID letter denoted its position in a squadron. So while we know that E2601 was "H" in B flight, and E2514 was "K", that's not the same as knowing that either of them ever flew with E2466, the Harvey/Waight machine - you need to tally their service dates as well to be 100% accurate. (Or obviously just mutter life's too short and accept some limitations.... )

[horsepyre]

PPS - Also bear in mind that serial numbers were applied on production, and unique to a specific machine, while the big ID letter denoted its position in a squadron. So while we know that E2601 was "H" in B flight, and E2514 was "K", that's not the same as knowing that either of them ever flew with E2466, the Harvey/Waight machine - you need to tally their service dates as well to be 100% accurate. (Or obviously just mutter life's too short and accept some limitations.... )

Probably what I'll end up doing

Thanks so much for the info, though - I must have spent an hour on Google trying to figure all this stuff out to no avail. Might have to invest in Les Rogers' book. It sounds very useful!!!

It's great that we have such sharp history buffs on this site

[Dom S]

Yeah the Rogers book is pretty unbeatable. Depressingly pricy, but it's not a small volume, to put it mildly, and it really is the definitive work on the subject.

[john snelling]

Thanks for the history lesson guys.

[Boney10]

Yeah the Rogers book is pretty unbeatable. Depressingly pricy, but it's not a small volume, to put it mildly, and it really is the definitive work on the subject.

I got this tome myself for Xmas, excellent resource, though a bit of an outlay, worth it though

[horsepyre]

Hi all,

Finally got around to doing up some 22 Squadron Brisfits last night. I started with Atkey/Gass's bird because there was a WOW card for it in the Crossfire booster - the card has an 'A' on the top left wingtip, so that's what I went with (even though previous posts in this thread have indicated it might have gone in the center of the wing instead).

I want to do another 'A' Flight bird - can anyone tell me serial numbers and/or pilots for 22 Squadron, A Flight?

I need to get that Les Rogers book! It was my birthday last week...