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Thread: 3 Cards Maneuver: "Over-Climb"

  1. #1

    Lightbulb 3 Cards Maneuver: "Over-Climb"

    This idea occured to me yesterday while smoking something that is illegal in most countries, but not in mine
    It's a 3 cards maneuver and I called it 'Over-Climb' and you can think it as the mirowed version of the offical 'Over-Dive' maneuver:

    "Over-Climb"

    1st Card: Straight
    2nd Card: Climb (gain 1 climb marker)
    3rd Card: Stall (acting as climb, gain a second climb marker)

    Planes 'over-climbing' are flying slow, so if they're fired uppon they recieve a +1 penalty on damage they take while performing the maneuver -- natural 0 are still 0

    so what do y'all think?

  2. #2

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    I like this one, Gallo, sounds good. I particularly like the "stall" played after the "climb" card. It resembles the "climbing momentum" quite well.
    Here in Italy we would call an over-climb "salire in candela" or zoom for our anglophone friends.

  3. #3

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    I like the idea of a zoom. It gives a new meaning to dive and zoom attack. I have always thought you should be able to do a dive followed by a climb.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  4. #4

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    Very interesting rule. Let us know how it turns out if you playtest it - I like the idea a lot, but I wonder if planes with a climb value of 2 would become just too absurdly good (I mean, even more absurdly good).

    Color me intrigued.

  5. #5

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    Cheers Y'all!

    Austin: I did tried it with a friend on a small two-on-two planes dogfight. I would say the maneuver actually beef-up slower climbing planes: Albatoss D.V can now climb an altitude peg in two turns... I guess two-seaters with slow climbing rate will take advantage of it too.
    Take into accout the ''flying-slow'' part of the rule too: planes 'over-climbing' recieve a +1 damage if shoot at... that prevents planes to play it a lot: Pilots should be carefull about when exaclty trying this maneuver since they are sitting ducks while doing it

    Rob & Maurizio: I thought about it as an independent maneuver, not as a ''zoom'' over-climb after a ''boom'' over-dive... but I liked your imput very much! so I guess we can acomodate it! So what about an ad-hoc boom&zoom rule?

    If played after an over-dive (boom attak), an over-climb takes advantage of the earned speed of the dive, hence the over-climb (zoom) occurs at normal speed and the "+1 damage'' if shooted at is ignored?

    It would be like this:
    Boom & Zoom:

    Boom attack: Over-Dive: stall-dive-straight + Over-Climb: straight-climb-stall

    six cards total!

    during over dive: altitude effect: loose one atitude level after dive and one after straight -- speed effect: plane is flying fast so can 'dodge' a damage card (official rules)
    during over climb: altitude effect: gain an altitude marker after climb and another after straight -- speed effect: plane flying at normal speed (it does not add an additional damage point if fired uppon)

    ** Plus, for your consideration: certain planes known for been structurally sturdier than the rest, and good for boom&zoom tactics (SPAD, SE5, Fokker D.II, Pfatz D.III and D.XII) can zoom-climbing right after the over-dive straight card:

    Special Boom&Zoom secuence:

    stall-dive-straight-climb-stall

    altitude effect: loose two altitude pegs during the boom, one after dive and one after the straight, earn two altitude markers during the zoom: one after climb and one after stall
    Speed efect: plane is moving fast during the whole maneuver?

  6. #6

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    Yes Ezekiel, I could pretty much go for that.
    I like your rider about the sturdier aircraft getting a bonus.
    I think we should limit the boom and zoom tactic, to not more than once every three turns.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  7. #7

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    Nice idea Ezekiel, might try that with my simple altitude rules.

  8. #8

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    But by doing this are we not changing the way the engines work on the airframes. Remember aircraft design and especially warplanes was in its infancy, engines were not "that" powerful to be able to climb this way.
    By allowing this rule we are making drastic changes to the system, especially for the early and mid aircraft.
    I can see late war being able to hang from the prop as it were, but not so the early stuff.
    Just my 2d

  9. #9

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    Personally I am against boosting the climb rate of aircraft.
    Numerous Aces laboured the point that maintaining a height advantage was vital in air-to-air combat, and forcing your opponent down was advantageous. Increasing the climb rate would, in my opinion, make it too easy for a player to overdive, or spin out, to get out of trouble, and then super-climb back into a dogfight much too quickly.
    At present, very few aircraft can climb swiftly, so a loss of altitude can usually mean that forcing a plane to drop down out of a dogfight can keep it out of the action for several turns, allowing the "victor" to double up on another foe before the first plane can struggle back up to rejoin the fight.
    Also, staffing ground targets would become easier, as it would be much quicker to climb up beyond the reach of AA machine guns after hitting the target.

  10. #10

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    Good points, Tim and Chris. My concern with this maneuver is that it doesn't seem to reward fast climbers so much as it does slow climbers. And let's face it, my Dr.1s need all the help they can get against some of these faster Entente scouts!

  11. #11

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    Maybe more research is called for here chaps. Rather than a blanket coverage for the rule, make it only available to those aircraft that were known to be able to out climb their contemporaries. We all know from pilots recollections that the DRI could climb faster and seems to me even as an R.F.C. pilot to be at a disadvantage in this respect. Some aircraft such as the SE5A were known to boom and zoom, but not over dive and zoom. I just feel that with a little restraint and refinement we are on the track of a workable rule which will add some realism to the climb and dive conundrum which has plagued us ever since altitude it was bolted on to the rules.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Personally I am against boosting the climb rate of aircraft.
    Numerous Aces laboured the point that maintaining a height advantage was vital in air-to-air combat, and forcing your opponent down was advantageous.
    that's true... but there isn't many instances in the game where altitude gives a great advantage - despite the rules such as +1 points per shooting from above and so, the real advantage of altitude is that pilot could trade it per speed and and do things like barrel or boom&zoom attacks, something you can't do with the official rules

  13. #13

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    Maybe we are overlooking the fact that this is a house rules discussion, and everyone can take out of it what they want or discard it at will.
    I tend to give things atry before making up my mind whether they suit my type of play or not.
    We are certainly not discussing anything which will influence the official rules one way or the other.
    Remember the objective here is having fun.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo Rojo View Post
    that's true... but there isn't many instances in the game where altitude gives a great advantage - despite the rules such as +1 points per shooting from above and so, the real advantage of altitude is that pilot could trade it per speed and and do things like barrel or boom&zoom attacks, something you can't do with the official rules
    I agree with much of what you say... and Rob does, of course, have the right of by saying that we should all do what we can to maximize fun... but I find the ability to dictate the pace of engagements is underrated. The SE5a and SPAD have the longest legs in the game... they can get in, get their shots, and get out. If the odds are not in their favor, they have the option of extending an escape. The Dr.1 does not have that advantage. What it could do, however, is out-climb most of the Entente scouts. Don't like the odds...? Get up and out.

    So long as the over-climb reward the good climbers so as to maintain their advantage, I'd be willing to give it a try.

    Btw, although Jager/Karl wasn't speaking of the Dr.1... Best. Description. Ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    I did fly the S-S D.III last weekend, and the O deck is a dream, and it climbs like a scalded cat.
    [emphasis added]

  15. #15

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    Regarding Fokker Dr.I vs SPAD-XIII and SE5a

    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    The SE5a and SPAD have the longest legs in the game... they can get in, get their shots, and get out. If the odds are not in their favor, they have the option of extending an escape. The Dr.1 does not have that advantage. What it could do, however, is out-climb most of the Entente scouts. Don't like the odds...? Get up and out.

    So long as the over-climb reward the good climbers so as to maintain their advantage, I'd be willing to give it a try.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Fokker Dr.I was outclased by SPAD XIII and SE5a in real life... it sounds logic to me that it should be outclassed by them in the game too

    In the last eddition of the Official Rules, SPAD XIII, SE5a and Fokker Dr.1 all have the same climb-speed: 2
    So this house-rule is not changing anything regarding these aircrafts relative climbing-speed, they all can over-climb

    Now, I'm sugesting SPAD XIII and SE5a (and Fokker D.VII, which should be a more fair match for those, and SS-D.II, and Pflatz D.III and D.VII) should be able to boom&zoom...
    ... something I'm not saying in this thread, however, is that I don't allow any of those late-war faster planes to turn to one side and then turn to the other side right after (i.e: a SE5a cannot play a 90º turn left, and then a 60º turn right, and then a 60º turn right for instance). SE5a, SPAD-XIII and practically all A/C have to play a straight, a stall, a side-slide or something else before turning to the other side, because those planes were not that maneuvrable (IMHO) and didn't have a such a high roll rate as the Fokker Dr.I had... but I do allow in my games to Fokker Dr.I (and Shopiwth Camel and Triplane, and no other plane) to turn-and-counter-turn: so a Fokker Dr.I should be able to turn 90º right, then 60º left, and then 90º right again if the pilot is willing to

    All I've read about Fokker Dr.I doesn't point me in the direction that the plane was such an awsome climber... I'm have the feeling that the idea that was such a great climber come mostly from a comment by MvR, who said that the new plane "turns like the devil and climbs like a monkey"... now MvR was flying an Albatros D.Va before the Triplane, so it's likely anything would strike him as having a good climbing-speed, isn't it? (feel free to correct me on this point)

    If someone wants to beef-up the climbing capacity of the Dr.I (or SS.D-II which was a fast climber) I suggest this: allow those planes to play a climb card as last card at the end of a turn and again as the first card of the next turn. My club does it as a House-Rule and works very fine -- we also allow SPADs to play a dive as a first card in a turn right after had played a dive as last card in the last turn

    ***

    Addressing othe comments: yes, Chris, I'm envisoning this house-rule as for mid-late to late war. So I woudn't apply it to early war scouts

    And Rob is right: this is a proposed House-Rule... take as much as you like, play test, change what you think needs to be changed, discard whatever you don't like

    later,
    Ezekiel

  16. #16

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    IDEA: Since most airplane's climb-speed decreased at higher altitude, Over-Climb may only be used up to a certain altitude

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo Rojo View Post
    ... something I'm not saying in this thread, however, is that I don't allow any of those late-war faster planes to turn to one side and then turn to the other side right after (i.e: a SE5a cannot play a 90º turn left, and then a 60º turn right, and then a 60º turn right for instance). SE5a, SPAD-XIII and practically all A/C have to play a straight, a stall, a side-slide or something else before turning to the other side, because those planes were not that maneuvrable (IMHO) and didn't have a such a high roll rate as the Fokker Dr.I had... but I do allow in my games to Fokker Dr.I (and Shopiwth Camel and Triplane, and no other plane) to turn-and-counter-turn: so a Fokker Dr.I should be able to turn 90º right, then 60º left, and then 90º right again if the pilot is willing to
    That's a very interesting rule, Ezekiel - I might have to try that out for myself...

    If you ever get around to putting together a word doc or pdf of all the house rules you use, I'd love to try out your version of the game sometime! It sounds like you've given a lot of thought to how to make the game more accurate, while maintaining playability. PM me if you ever need someone to test out your rules!

    I'm (finally) breaking out my Series 7 planes this week, so I might tinker with this in my group.

  18. #18

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    Hi Austin!
    I do have a word document drafting (in choppy English) these House-Rules. It does have rules about maneuvers, roll-rate and maneuverability, especial damage, crippled planes, and we're working on especial firing options too (diferences between stable and unstable gun platforms). I don't mind sharing it with you, but it seems I cannot send attaches (other than images files) by PM. If you PM me your email address I'll be glad to send you the doc file.



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