The Early War Campaign

[gully_raker]

Well I suppose limiting the British Aircraft to only shooting at close range will help the Germans as well as having to reload those Lewis guns.

Just a thought as I have 2 x BE's & only one Gunbus any objection if I flew the 2 BE's, one with the 30 degree left Lewis & the other with only a rear firing Lewis?

If not I can sub a DH-2 for a Gunbus but I think the 2 BE's would be a fun substitution.

I await a reply from both you & flash!

Just giving this a "Nudge" as there were a lot of posts on here & Dave & Peter may have missed my query.
Just wanted an official O.K. before I take off (Hopefully over the weekend!)

[Teaticket]

I don't know how close to the actual scenario Dave wants us to play. I see quite a few wandering off changing scenarios in these solo campaigns so many aren't playing the same battles. If it will make it more enjoyable for you then I'd say go for it. I have no idea how it will play out as I only playtested with the planes I put in the scenario. That 2nd BE2c with limited firing arc will really be a handicap for the British.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Just ordered my two Gunbus's or should that be Gunbusii from Shapeways, so should be good to go by about the 22nd of the month.
Rob.

[Teaticket]

Just ordered my two Gunbus's or should that be Gunbusii from Shapeways, so should be good to go by about the 22nd of the month.
Rob.

Sweet. I just put on the finishing touches two of mine last evening. This early campaign has me painting and flying planes I probably would not. I think this is a good thing.

[flash]

Just giving this a "Nudge" as there were a lot of posts on here & Dave & Peter may have missed my query.
Just wanted an official O.K. before I take off (Hopefully over the weekend!)

One of the basic tenets of the campaigns has been that we play the same scenario so we see results from different perspectives; it is also a tip of the hat to the author that after all their effort we play their game but I also know you reprobates will do as you please when it comes to your toys so I can only ask you to try and keep it as close as you can to the original set up with whatever aircraft you use.

[fast.git]

Once spring term is done, I'll be able to fly this (with 2 DH.2s masquerading as the aforementioned Gunbus)... and the first one, for that matter. Only two more weeks to go!

[Teaticket]

Hang on Chris, you'll make it back to the front.

[Twisted_terrain]

I've played this scenario well over 30 times now, flying each side equally.

Dude, twenty out of ten for effort, I did three for mine, although I was using unsuspecting victims . Then realised it'll most probably turn into a massive punch up.

I will be substituting models, but keeping the planes the same. Can't wait to get my teeth into this mission.

[gully_raker]

One of the basic tenets of the campaigns has been that we play the same scenario so we see results from different perspectives; it is also a tip of the hat to the author that after all their effort we play their game but I also know you reprobates will do as you please when it comes to your toys so I can only ask you to try and keep it as close as you can to the original set up with whatever aircraft you use.

O.K. Sir. Rodger that!
I will sub a FE 2b to act as the second Gunbus.

[Teaticket]

Dude, twenty out of ten for effort, I did three for mine, although I was using unsuspecting victims . Then realised it'll most probably turn into a massive punch up.

I will be substituting models, but keeping the planes the same. Can't wait to get my teeth into this mission.

Yeah, I did quite a bit of tweaking along the way with planes, set up, handicapping. Bit of a challenge as Dave put up a scenario almost the same as this one so I tried to give it it's own flavor. If anything I think learned how to fly a Gunbus!

This one is tough from either side. Good luck to you and all that give it a shot.

[Teaticket]

Dave, I have a question. When rolling for post battle results, when a plane is downed by an explosion card caused by a collision, do you get both the -3 explosion and -2 collision modifiers for a -5?
Guess where this is going?

[flash]

Dave, I have a question. When rolling for post battle results, when a plane is downed by an explosion card caused by a collision, do you get both the -3 explosion and -2 collision modifiers for a -5? Guess where this is going?

No it doesn't Peter (you'll be glad to hear !). The rules state: "Boom card drawn for any reason - overrides flamer/collision"....

So just the minus three then !!

[flash]

Just to let you all know I've now highlighted the out of action Wound/Returns on the spreadsheet in yellow to make things clearer at a glance.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Just to let you all know I've now highlighted the out of action Wound/Returns on the spreadsheet in yellow to make things clearer at a glance.

Thank you for your kind consideration once again, for those of us who like me are hard of thinking Dave.
Rob.

[Twisted_terrain]

A bit off kilter but, Monday night I had a few games as it turned out early, mid and late war. In game three we were running the brisfit with double Lewis rear guns (it's what I had in the bag, plus it meant the entente could bomb), how would you guys run the lewis mags. As in the early game the dh2's had 3 phases then reload' mid the nieuport and strutter rear gun both had 6 phases then reload, when questioned by one of my CP partners who'd played entente earlier posed the question to me, the quick fire answer was best to ignore at this stage. As it was, with three DVa's bearing down on him he didn't last long (the camel took a little longer) although bomb the target he did.
So any road how would you do it?

[flash]

Valid question Si - The twin rear gun combo will fire for six phases as they'll have the 98rd pans - reloading is a tricky question though and something best agreed as playable within the group, I would suggest after 3 phases one gun is reloaded for sure and maybe after 4 or 5 phases the second is on-line. As I'm sure you can imagine there could be circs where reloading is interrupted and they just use one gun. Book keeping then becomes essential as things could then become complicated !
Are you doing mission 2 by the way ?!

[Twisted_terrain]

Valid question Si - The twin rear gun combo will fire for six phases as they'll have the 98rd pans - reloading is a tricky question though and something best agreed as playable within the group, I would suggest after 3 phases one gun is reloaded for sure and maybe after 4 or 5 phases the second is on-line. As I'm sure you can imagine there could be circs where reloading is interrupted and they just use one gun. Book keeping then becomes essential as things could then become complicated !
Are you doing mission 2 by the way ?!

Makes sense.
In regards to mission 2, did it the Saturday before last, however uploading pics to the site wirelessly is a bl#+*#n nightmare, must find a bit of Ethernet cable or unplug the Xbox. I want to prick the sausage! Asap boss.
Pal I played with on Monday night re-enacts wwi with the South Essex regiment he says one of them has built a replica SE5, although I reckon all that time in the trenches has done the boy no good...

[flash]

Hope to get my table back up after this weekend - daughter & her fella just back from Lanzarote, had to pick them up from Stanstead yesterday afternoon, dodged the gridlocked M11 thanks to the car park bus driver but the whole trip still took 6 hrs & 15min - did the round robin dropping them off last week in less than 4hrs
Bovington tomorrow with Ajay so that will be good - hopefully will bump into decapod & others whilst there then back to the front next week !

[Archidamus]

the whole trip still took 6 hrs & 15min........Bovington tomorrow with Ajay so that will be good

Ouch - that's a long journey on a hot day Dave! Have fun at Bovington - we'll keep Mark entertained on Sunday with the WWI game

[tikkifriend]

Have asked Kyte to fly you out some liquid refreshment

[flash]

Gents, can I ask that you show the maths for the crash & E&E rolls in you butchers tally in future AAR as it helps me with the spreadsheet.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

As I have mine rolled for by an independent source will it be O.K. if I add them later once the roll gets made?
Rob.

[flash]

Of course Rob - you can only add it when you get it ! Sometimes it's fun to see how close to disaster one gets !

[WWIflyingace]

So like I said I did some timed target practice this past weekend. It took me 2.4 times longer on average to empty my ammo when I took short aimed bursts - as WWI pilot's of the day were trained to do - verses just firing until the ammo ran out. The target was on a roller and moved up and down as it moved along the track so I had to keep changing my aim, etc. My scores were higher with the short bursts. Firing the gun while following the moving target produced a few misses.

Short bursts tended to form a cluster of hits, but some could be spread out a bit. When firing a continuous burst I tended to form more of a line as I was moving up/down and laterally to keep with the target. Leading and trailing round tended to be misses.

If we took the results and applied them to the calculations for the Lewis Gun optional rule we should double the number of rounds in the the gun could be fired before changing drums.

If anyone else has tried such an experiment I would be interested in knowing the results

[flash]

... I did a little gunnery practice over the weekend where I had a friend time me firing a machine gun at different fire rates. I recorded accuracy and time.

Lucky you - I'd love to do that again

I found I was more accurate with short bursts versus just firing the gun at full auto.

Of course you did - that's machinegun 101 - I was trained to fire in 3 to 5 round bursts with the mg - accurate, saves ammo, stops the gat overheating. (I was also taught to walk rounds in on a target and to pour it on at close range or on hard targets)

The target was moving...

Now strap the gun on the back of a pick up and drive up and down the range !

I think this 'test' justifies doubling the number of fire rounds for a Lewis machine gun...

No, it doesn't.

The way to look at this is in the abstract of the game:
In a two second phase (at long range) a single gun can cause a card of B deck damage - the gun might have fired a number of bursts in that phase to cause that amount of damage, or, just one or two. (maybe that's partly why the damage cards have different values ?)

The idea to err to the lowest number of turns of fire is to:
a) reflect maximum usage of the gun when the opportunity presents,
b) encourage making & taking close range opportunities,
c) reflect the difficulties of the Lewis gun armed aircraft,
d) introduce the dangerous practice of changing mags in Nieuports
e) assist against two-seater's / bombers
f) reflect there was no formal training for observers until 1917
g) leave room for improvement when the 97 rd pan comes in

The RoF of a Lewis gun is given as 600 rpm which is 10rps
A game turn is given as 'five to six seconds'.
A phase in a game turn is given as roughly two seconds
(though has been calculated by someone on the forum to be 1.3sec from speeds & scale)
In a phase of two seconds a Lewis gun can fire a max 20 rounds.
In a game turn of five to six seconds it will fire max 60 rounds - well, not with a 47 round pan it won't but that takes care of the potential time differential.

[WWIflyingace]

Now I see why you wanted to move it here.

"No, it doesn't."

Yeah, it does.

The game is meant to be balanced. The Lewis rule gives way too much disadvantage as currently written as other aircraft with other handicaps are not taken into account. Your items a through a still apply whether the numbers of rounds is doubled or not. Shoot the official rules cover a and b.

Yeah the Lewis could probably fire 20 rounds in a phase if the pilot held the trigger down and emptied his wad, but they were TRAINED NOT TO DO THAT! Far more reasonable to say they fired half the time or less.

The rest of your argument simply make the assumption of continued holding down of the trigger and firing. NOT very good practice by any well-trained soldier or airman.

Aim, fire, pause, aim, fire, etc. If I were moving and shooting at a moving target the aim would take longer and I would be firing a whole lot less! This is something not taken into account by the optional rules. The rules just assume you open up and keep shooting at maximum rate of fire. Again, something the operators of said weapons WERE TRAINED NOT TO DO!

I am not going to use the Lewis Rule as written for that reason among others. I am going to assume my pilot has some intelligence and discipline and isn't going to just pull the trigger until no more bullets come out of the weapon. Rookies might do that, but not veteran pilots.

Somewhere, I think it might have been on a gaming site the Lewis Gun issue was addressed and the answer was basically something to the effect that based on the duration of a typical game there is no difference between having a Lewis versus a Vickers or any other machine gun. Since the aircraft designed for the game cover a later period the Lewis gun is question would by the 47 round variety. Many of my - multi-player - games last around 12 turns so halving for the 47 round Lewis seems reasonable to me.

In my readings it also states a well trained pilot could change the drum in 4 seconds; or in game terms two rounds. The article didn't distinguish between what type of gun mounting was involved, but I would guess they were talking about a pilot in a seated position; not standing to reload. Probably also assumes that the pilot was not under duress at the time, so the reload time in the optional rules seems okay to me.

[gully_raker]

I think the most important thing to remember here is that we have rules set out for this campaign & we cannot have players using different rules to all the other players.
If folk wish to be part of the campaign then they need to follow the rules otherwise their results will be skewed compared to those who abide by the rules as written.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Quite right Baz.
There is nothing wrong with discussing alternative rules, but if you choose to play in an ongoing campaign, it is only good manners to abide by those rules, and discuss implementation of any amendments before the next campaign starts.
I also think that we are losing sight that this game was written to be simple to play. i do not want a 40 minute game turning into a four hour game, otherwise I may as well stop playing Wings, and go back to my full Wargames Table. By all means add a few fripperies, but for pities sake let's not get bogged down in a morass of petty rules and regulations.
Rob.

[flash]

Now I see why you wanted to move it here...

I see what you're implying but you asked the question, this is where the rules were discussed so this was the logical answer

The game is meant to be balanced.

Yes it is

The Lewis rule gives way too much disadvantage as currently written as other aircraft with other handicaps are not taken into account. Your items a through a still apply whether the numbers of rounds is doubled or not. Shoot the official rules cover a and b.

And the Lewis rules make it more so, with much more limited ammo you might ignore a long range shot for a chance at a short range shot

Yeah the Lewis could probably fire 20 rounds in a phase if the pilot held the trigger down and emptied his wad, but they were TRAINED NOT TO DO THAT!

They weren't trained initially but as I said it is in the abstract terms of the game

Far more reasonable to say they fired half the time or less.

but if you say that then someone will pop up and say they could fire twice that much !

The rest of your argument simply make the assumption of continued holding down of the trigger and firing. NOT very good practice by any well-trained soldier or airman.

You're making the assumption there, I refer you back to the abstract

Aim, fire, pause, aim, fire, etc. If I were moving and shooting at a moving target the aim would take longer and I would be firing a whole lot less! This is something not taken into account by the optional rules

. or even the official rules. see Abstract

The rules just assume you open up and keep shooting at maximum rate of fire.

There you go assuming again - as it happens you could look at the three phase firing as being 15 rounds a phase or 1.5 secs of firing which is not quite the max.

Again, something the operators of said weapons WERE TRAINED NOT TO DO!

They barely taught them to fly let alone shoot.

I am not going to use the Lewis Rule as written for that reason

I didn't expect you would

among others.

Like the blind spot rule ?!

I am going to assume my pilot has some intelligence and discipline and isn't going to just pull the trigger until no more bullets come out of the weapon. Rookies might do that, but not veteran pilots.

You clearly didn't understand the concept of abstract

Somewhere, I think it might have been on a gaming site the Lewis Gun issue was addressed and the answer was basically something to the effect that based on the duration of a typical game there is no difference between having a Lewis versus a Vickers or any other machine gun.

Within the official rules that's quite right which is why people have looked into alternative rules for the Lewis gun because there should be !

Since the aircraft designed for the game cover a later period the Lewis gun is question would by the 47 round variety.

Did you mean 'aircraft designed for the game cover an earlier period the Lewis gun is question would by the 47 round variety' or 'the aircraft designed for the game cover a later period the Lewis gun in question would by the 97 round variety.'

Many of my - multi-player - games last around 12 turns so halving for the 47 round Lewis seems reasonable to me.

With two guns on board you wouldn't have to reload then

In my readings it also states a well trained pilot could change the drum in 4 seconds; or in game terms two rounds. The article didn't distinguish between what type of gun mounting was involved, but I would guess they were talking about a pilot in a seated position; not standing to reload. Probably also assumes that the pilot was not under duress at the time, so the reload time in the optional rules seems okay to me.

Yay !

"No, it doesn't." Yeah, it does.

I don't think it rates doubling

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I've had no problems with the Lewis gun rules. I have introduced limited ammo for all planes, balances that one out. At present I am using 47 round drum for lewis and a bigger drum for the parabellum (2 seaters only). Then the question is how many drums would a pilot carry, entente, to how many drums in a 2 seater, entente and Hun?

For simplicity I allocate:
1. The 47 round drum 2 shots/drum. And have 4 drums per scout/2 seater, so 8 cards get allocated.
2. The 97 round drum 4 shots/drum. And have 3 drums per scout/2 seater, so 12 cards get allocated.
3. The parabellum mg 14/17 belt fed from a magazine 50 rnds. 2 shots/drum. 8 cards allocated.

In the heat of battle you can easily get carried away. Yes firing 3-5 round bursts but quickly. 2-3 seconds between bursts with a 2 second burst say 5 seconds, then in 60 seconds you could fire, in theory, 12 bursts of 5 rounds. Too much book keeping.

Limited ammo, time to change drums are all incorporated or can be in the rules for OTT. I have had better success with the lewis than the Hun guns and I fly for the Hun. However the cards are a nice leveler and provide the random factor too.

Over wing gun's on entente planes, I wouldn't like to have to stand up and change the drum. There is a story of a pilot doing this and the plane flipped he was left hanging by the lewis mag which had jammed. Forunately he got the plane righted and back in the cockpit.

Is this not why the sliding mount for the lewis was brought in, not only to fire upwards but to bring the gun to the pilot so changing of drums was easier?

[flash]

... Too much book keeping...

Exactly - the rules have to cover all shooting contingencies from tailing shots to deflection shots, and all types of fire from snap shots to hosing shots.

[Twisted_terrain]

their results will be skewed compared to those who abide by the rules as written.

Talking about skewed (or maybe stewed), every time I fly against my strutter pretending to be a be2c I give it a full rear arc. But hey, like the murphys...

[tikkifriend]

Quite right Baz.
There is nothing wrong with discussing alternative rules, but if you choose to play in an ongoing campaign, it is only good manners to abide by those rules, and discuss implementation of any amendments before the next campaign starts.
I also think that we are losing sight that this game was written to be simple to play. i do not want a 40 minute game turning into a four hour game, otherwise I may as well stop playing Wings, and go back to my full Wargames Table. By all means add a few fripperies, but for pities sake let's not get bogged down in a morass of petty rules and regulations.
Rob.

Here Here. Its a game for all to play as Rob says in 40 mins or so. Lets not turn it into a computer designed perfect to the Nth degree simulation game or we will rapidly loose any new players who just want to a have a shoot em up ( especially the 12-18 age group)

[Archidamus]

Personally I am happy to play the optional rule for limited Lewis drum ammo - apart from anything else I seem to jam fairly frequently on the third shot in the drum (so no difference there between playing it as a jam or a reload), and if I jam on the second shot I play a drum change if it's the first or second drum. I haven't found it affects play that much in all honesty - other than allowing Hubner to escape on a couple of occassions (curses!)

[FarEast]

Here Here. Its a game for all to play as Rob says in 40 mins or so. Lets not turn it into a computer designed perfect to the Nth degree simulation game or we will rapidly loose any new players who just want to a have a shoot em up ( especially the 12-18 age group)

Or even the 38 - 40 Age group..... Have trouble remembering half the rules most of the time!

[gully_raker]

Again I must state that the most important thing is for those who are involved in the Campaign all use the Rules as written in Flash's sticky for the Early Doors Campaign.
If you do not want to use these rules then you should not be participating in the Campaign.

Apologies for being so blunt but Rules are Rules & you cant have some participants playing with a different set that gives an advantage over the official campaign rules.

Climbs down from "High Horse"!

[tikkifriend]

Again I must state that the most important thing is for those who are involved in the Campaign all use the Rules as written in Flash's sticky for the Early Doors Campaign.
If you do not want to use these rules then you should not be participating in the Campaign.

Apologies for being so blunt but Rules are Rules & you cant have some participants playing with a different set that gives an advantage over the official campaign rules.

Climbs down from "High Horse"!

Got to agree there Baz.

[tikkifriend]

Again I must state that the most important thing is for those who are involved in the Campaign all use the Rules as written in Flash's sticky for the Early Doors Campaign.
If you do not want to use these rules then you should not be participating in the Campaign.

Apologies for being so blunt but Rules are Rules & you cant have some participants playing with a different set that gives an advantage over the official campaign rules.

Climbs down from "High Horse"!

Got to agree there Baz.

[WWIflyingace]

Okay, I'll drop out. I was looking for a discussion - after a really cool outing I thought justified a revision to the OPTIONAL Lewis Rule - and got a belittling reply instead.

AND in regards to the blind spot rule that Dave has continually hammered me about; I use altitude. If you are at a lower level the blind spot is a full ruler length. That is why I kept stressing LOWER.

I'll still supply my scenario. Bye, it was fun while it lasted. Really!

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Chuck I think you've missed the point by stating:

Okay, I'll drop out. I was looking for a discussion - after a really cool outing I thought justified a revision to the OPTIONAL Lewis Rule - and got a belittling reply instead.

They are optional rules. If you want to fire, fire, fire; then don't use them. Then you wont have a problem with using them.

Optional Rules:

Lewis Gun Restrictions: Lewis guns had 47 round drum mags until Nov 1916 when the 97 Round drum mag was introduced to all squadrons. RoF is 500-600 Rpm; or 8-10 Rps - that's 5-6 sec of ammo in a 47 drum; 10-12 sec in a 97 drum. In the game that's 3 rounds of shooting for the 47 drum, 6 for the 97 before you have to reload. (At close range that's 6 or 12 cards of damage with +1s where appropriate)
For those with a fixed over-wing weapon eg N.11, N.16, it takes 3 moves (1 GT) to reload the Lewis Gun - as that entails a pilot standing up in the cockpit to replace the drum it may only fly straights whilst this is done.
For cockpit mounted weapons, or, over-wing models with Foster mounts (eg RFC N.17, SE5s) it takes 3 moves (1 GT) to reload the Lewis Gun but they are only restricted to non steep moves to do so.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Please do not feel as if you have been singled out in any way Chuck.
As Neil says, you can fly using the Official rules from Wings of Glory.
Rob.

[flash]

Okay, I'll drop out....

Your call

AND in regards to the blind spot rule that Dave has continually hammered me about; I use altitude. If you are at a lower level the blind spot is a full ruler length. That is why I kept stressing LOWER.

What you actually said:

"The way my friends and I apply the rule at long range is we line up the ruler along the poles. If the line passes through the tail and the target is at same level or lower it is in the blind spot. It makes sense to us. Don't really want to debate this further..."

This renders a two-seater pretty much defenceless in the game which was my issue with it.

I'll still supply my scenario.

That won't be necessary Chuck, thankyou.

[gully_raker]

Okay, I'll drop out. I was looking for a discussion - after a really cool outing I thought justified a revision to the OPTIONAL Lewis Rule - and got a belittling reply instead.

AND in regards to the blind spot rule that Dave has continually hammered me about; I use altitude. If you are at a lower level the blind spot is a full ruler length. That is why I kept stressing LOWER.

I'll still supply my scenario. Bye, it was fun while it lasted. Really!

Sorry you feel that way Chuck!
All you had to do was follow the rules established at the start of the Campaign & there would have been no problems!

[tikkifriend]

Sorry you feel that way Chuck!
All you had to do was follow the rules established at the start of the Campaign & there would have been no problems!

Got to agree , Anything else is just not cricket, and with the England team on a peak lets stick to the rules eh Baz

[gully_raker]

Got to agree , Anything else is just not cricket, and with the England team on a peak lets stick to the rules eh Baz

Cant wait for the next Ashes Series.

[FarEast]

Very worried now about how I play the campaign

[Teaticket]

Very worried now about how I play the campaign

You shouldn't worry. Just stick to the RAW as best you can. Dave is herding cats here as you can see a few do their own thing anyway. As long as you stick to the intent of the rules.

Whew, just played out the scenario last night. crazy! Will try to write it up tonight.

[gully_raker]

Very worried now about how I play the campaign

Dont sweat too much James.
Just read Dave's sticky which has all the Campaign rules & you cant go wrong.

[flash]

...Whew, just played out the scenario last night. crazy! Will try to write it up tonight.

Looking forward to seeing how you got on Peter, I survived but failed the time frame. Next time !!

[Teaticket]

Question Dave, 2 wounds does or does not kill? I think not as you have a die roll modifier per wound. If it does kill....