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Thread: The Early War Campaign

  1. #401

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    Thanks, that will be great. December is always busy...

  2. #402

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    Can I entreat you all to check the rosters before you fly the missions so that we have scout pilots flying scouts, two-seater pilots piloting two-seaters and observers, well observing and also people have the correct ranks etc.
    Whilst not a big deal for you & your stories, which have been wonderful by the way, it will help with the book keeping end of things - especially for gongs and such. To that end I have noted the two seat drivers (a far as I know) as 'P2' on the rosters - please let me know if I have made any errors.
    If you want to promote an observer to pilot for any reason just let me know and I will amend the records and add a new observer as his replacement.
    I thankyou Uncle !

    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #403

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    I have made a copy of my new up dated roster to try and help prevent further errors Dave.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  4. #404

  5. #405

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    Might be words only for Mission 6 AAR. B***** France Telecom


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  6. #406

    Default Medal Time !

    Those that have been participating in this campaign and who qualify for it (submitted 5+ AAR) have been recommended for the new Aerodrome Campaign Medal - it came as a surprise to me too !!


    Those old hands that may have already been awarded the medal (from the aerodrome staff) but qualify for the Bronze have been recommended for that medal also - Skafloc, Brambo, tikkifriend off the top of my head..


    Congrats to all - Now be patient whilst Eric wades through the requests !

    Postscript: Checking on this the campaign doesn't appear in the list as we have not yet reached mission 8 (prequels not inc) but come the new year many of you will qualify
    Last edited by flash; 10-30-2014 at 09:12.

    "He is wise who watches"

  7. #407

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    Ploughing through the pile of e mails I get when I find a wifi spot I discovered I had been awarded just such a medal. Thanks Dave and Eric. Beers on me As for France Telecom who STILL have not fixed the line
    .


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  8. #408

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    Ooh medals, me,me,me...
    Sorry I've not been around chaps, life has been weighing me down. Oh yeh and I lost out on a copy of windsocks datafile 41 pfalz dxii to a bookseller on fleabay the other day!!! Will get Verdun typed up asap...

  9. #409

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    Got through scenario 6 last night. I should have it written up Sunday. Whew, caught up!

  10. #410

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twisted_terrain View Post
    ....Sorry I've not been around chaps, life has been weighing me down...
    It does that from time to time; good to see you back in the circuit Si, thought we'd lost you for a minute !

    "He is wise who watches"

  11. #411

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    Yes indeed Si, it's great to hear from you.
    I'm sorry to hear things have been getting on top of you old chap.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  12. #412

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    Nice to hear from you again Si. Hope everything is ok.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  13. #413

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    Good to see you are back wing walking again Si


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  14. #414

    Default Medal Time Clarification

    Clarification from Eric:

    To qualify for the campaign medal you must have submitted 5 AAR as part of a campaign whilst it is being run. (This total does NOT include any prequels - you did them for love !)

    Those who have been participating in this campaign and who qualify as above will be recommended for the medal in January when mission 8 is posted.

    Those old hands that may have already been awarded the medal (from the aerodrome staff) but qualify for the Bronze/Silver will likewise be recommended


    As this campaign is due be a prolonged engagement I have discussed it with Eric and he has stated that he will accept requests for medals in the first and second halves of the campaign. So those of you in for the long haul will be able to qualify for a second award during the campaign.
    He has specified 1-12 & 13-24 as the periods he'd like us to aim for so we may extend a little beyond our target (and get to use DR1's !)

    "He is wise who watches"

  15. #415

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    Dr1's, my favourite..
    See you on the Dark Side......

  16. #416

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post



    As this campaign is due be a prolonged engagement I have discussed it with Eric and he has stated that he will accept requests for medals in the first and second halves of the campaign. So those of you in for the long haul will be able to qualify for a second award during the campaign.
    He has specified 1-12 & 13-24 as the periods he'd like us to aim for so we may extend a little beyond our target (and get to use DR1's !)
    Sounds good to me Dave, I think some of the chaps have put in a lot more effort than normal on this one and deserve some extra Kudos for staying the course.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  17. #417

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    My thoughts exactly !

    "He is wise who watches"

  18. #418

  19. #419

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    Here is something you all might find interesting, on page 28 of the book titled The Lafayette Escadrille it states:

    "The underpowered Nieuport 11 could barely carry a single drum-fed Lewis machinegun. The drum only held 47 rounds, which a pilot could empty in just nine seconds if the gun did not jam."

    Andrea Angiolino stated on BoardGameGeek that a turn (3 phases) is 4 to 6 seconds which would mean it would take 4.5 to 7 phases to empty a Lewis in games terms.

  20. #420

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by WWIflyingace View Post
    Here is something you all might find interesting, on page 28 of the book titled The Lafayette Escadrille it states:

    "The underpowered Nieuport 11 could barely carry a single drum-fed Lewis machinegun. The drum only held 47 rounds, which a pilot could empty in just nine seconds if the gun did not jam."

    Andrea Angiolino stated on BoardGameGeek that a turn (3 phases) is 4 to 6 seconds which would mean it would take 4.5 to 7 phases to empty a Lewis in games terms.
    By "phases" I presume you mean manoeuvre cards Chuck?

  21. #421

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    Fascinating, that is just over half the max rof for that weapon and still less than the min rof.

  22. #422

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    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    By "phases" I presume you mean manoeuvre cards Chuck?
    Yes, three phases or maneuvers per turn.

  23. #423

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Fascinating, that is just over half the max rof for that weapon and still less than the min rof.
    The rate of fire could have been less in WWI than WWII. There were all kinds of modifications to most guns over time. Or maybe it was something that the French did that the British didn't; like in their training or something. I don't want to ruffle feather, but I get the impression that the French trained their pilots longer and better than the British did. So perhaps the ROF is an artifact of training.

    Going back to modifications for example the Winchester 1907 was a semi-automatic rifle the British used with a ten-round magazine to arm the observer in two-seaters. The French used a modified 1907/17 with full automatic and a twenty-round magazine. I happen to have a Winchester 1907 that my great-grandfather had in the Great War. It still works and I've taken it deer hunting a couple of times. Very hard to find ammunition for it though...

  24. #424

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    To empty the 47rd pan in nine seconds the rof is about 312 rpm (5.2 rps), the rof for a Lewis gun is given as 500-600 rpm (max 10rps) depending how it is adjusted, so this is not a training relevant issue. There was a post war (1924) French version with a rof of 450 rpm apparently.
    Air weapons tend to be tweaked up ie to get more rounds out quicker, as there is a need to get a cloud of bullets (for want of a better term) for the enemy to fly into in the short space of time they are in the target zone or sights of a gunner. eg the .50 cals used in aircraft had a much higher rate than ground versions, the later Vickers K MG used by air gunners (and the SAS on their jeeps) had 1100rpm rof.
    That said this information is therefore slightly baffling, I have heard one other similar reference even if it is counter intuitive, though I do wonder if a confusion has arisen between the drum types used as a 97rd drum would take 9-10 secs to empty but who knows, without their sources it's hard to verify either way and you can believe whatever suits you best.

  25. #425

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    To empty the 47rd pan in nine seconds the rof is about 312 rpm (5.2 rps), the rof for a Lewis gun is given as 500-600 rpm (max 10rps) depending how it is adjusted, so this is not a training relevant issue. There was a post war (1924) French version with a rof of 450 rpm apparently.
    Air weapons tend to be tweaked up ie to get more rounds out quicker, as there is a need to get a cloud of bullets (for want of a better term) for the enemy to fly into in the short space of time they are in the target zone or sights of a gunner. eg the .50 cals used in aircraft had a much higher rate than ground versions, the later Vickers K MG used by air gunners (and the SAS on their jeeps) had 1100rpm rof.
    That said this information is therefore slightly baffling, I have heard one other similar reference even if it is counter intuitive, though I do wonder if a confusion has arisen between the drum types used as a 97rd drum would take 9-10 secs to empty but who knows, without their sources it's hard to verify either way and you can believe whatever suits you best.
    I'll be the first to admit a level of ignorance in this... but could the variances be accounted for by the differences between the cyclic ROF of the Lewis and its effective or sustained ROF? Just about everything I've read indicates that air gunners and pilots attempted to engage HA with short, controlled bursts of fire. Assuming this to be true, could the anecdotal evidence concerning how long it takes to empty a Lewis drum have more to do with the 9-10 seconds claim than it did with the cyclic rate of the weapon?

  26. #426

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    ...differences between the cyclic ROF of the Lewis and its effective or sustained ROF...
    Apologies... for those who don't know, cyclic ROF is mechanical rate of fire... or how fast the weapon "cycles" (loads, locks, fires, unlocks, ejects). It does not account for operator tasks, limitations, etc. Effective or sustained ROF is the actual rate at which the weapon would typically be fired in combat. This considers several things, including but not limited to such operator tasks as: time spent reloading, aiming, replacing barrels, allowing for the weapon to cool, etc.

  27. #427

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    Going by the quote given "The drum only held 47 rounds, which a pilot could empty in just nine seconds if the gun did not jam" it seems to refer to the cyclic rate Chris. At 600rpm, 10rps, the pan would be empty in 4.7 sec, which handily drops into Andreas "given" length of a game turn of 4-6 sec.

    "He is wise who watches"

  28. #428

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    and a lot longer to change drums too Dave.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  29. #429

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Going by the quote given "The drum only held 47 rounds, which a pilot could empty in just nine seconds if the gun did not jam" it seems to refer to the cyclic rate Chris. At 600rpm, 10rps, the pan would be empty in 4.7 sec, which handily drops into Andreas "given" length of a game turn of 4-6 sec.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    and a lot longer to change drums too Dave.
    No argument from me... on more than one occasion Ball emptied 2 or 3 Lewis magazines into a two-seater in rapid succession. I've got no complaints with how the Lewis plays.

    I was just wondering if the differences between some anecdotal evidence could be attributed to different measurement tools/circumstances... in some ways similar to the debate about relative climb/dive/turning rates of various aeroplanes.

  30. #430

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    How did the Interrupter mechanism effect the rate of fire. Stopping the gun twice for every rotation of the prop may account for some of the difference.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  31. #431

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    How did the Interrupter mechanism effect the rate of fire. Stopping the gun twice for every rotation of the prop may account for some of the difference.
    Rob.
    But on the Nieuport 11 there was no interrupter gear - the Lewis was centre section mounted, and fired OVER the prop.

  32. #432

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    But on the Nieuport 11 there was no interrupter gear - the Lewis was centre section mounted, and fired OVER the prop.
    Fair point. Same with the N.17 & SE5/SE5a.

  33. #433

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    Sorry Tim.
    I had lost the fact that this was all about the Nieuport.
    I am trying to fit too many things into my day again.
    Flashing off to do stuff and then back on here for five minutes will have to stop.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  34. #434

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Sorry Tim.
    I had lost the fact that this was all about the Nieuport.
    I am trying to fit too many things into my day again.
    Flashing off to do stuff and then back on here for five minutes will have to stop.
    Rob.
    No need to apologise WingCo!
    I know what "busy" does to a bloke - I put four planes on my painting table last night, and haven't even entered that room today!
    Further behind schedule ("business as usual"!)

  35. #435

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    No need to apologise WingCo!
    And the point about interrupter gear is a valid one, at least so far as the point I was trying to make... intuitively, such gear would decrease ROF.

  36. #436

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    Except when they tried the Lewis with interrupter gear they found it didn't work very well and couldn't be made to do so - all to do with firing with an open bolt and getting the cyclic timing right - consequence being it shot through the prop blade; that's why it was used over wing and why the Vickers which fired slower and from a closed bolt position was used to fire with interrupter gear which did slow the rof of the Vickers initially though I understand later in the war as the tech improved so did the rof. It is about the Lewis gun, the aircraft type is irrelevant.

    and a lot longer to change drums too Dave.
    Quite true Neil but no-one wants to be reloading for more than three or four phases !
    On the ground the reload took very few seconds but in the air, not crew served, with 80+mph winds, trying to fly a plane and wearing gauntlets I can only imagine it took much much longer. Easier for an air-gunner I expect but maybe not by much.

    I was just wondering if the differences between some anecdotal evidence could be attributed to different measurement tools/circumstances
    It is odd isn't it Chris - I can't get around how loading a mag, holding the trigger down until it's empty and timing it with a stop watch can vary very much though !?! Maybe the French made one with a really slow rate of fire - one with a Gallic shrug per'aps !
    Last edited by flash; 01-10-2015 at 15:04.

  37. #437

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    To empty the 47rd pan in nine seconds the rof is about 312 rpm (5.2 rps), the rof for a Lewis gun is given as 500-600 rpm (max 10rps) depending how it is adjusted, so this is not a training relevant issue. There was a post war (1924) French version with a rof of 450 rpm apparently.
    Air weapons tend to be tweaked up ie to get more rounds out quicker, as there is a need to get a cloud of bullets (for want of a better term) for the enemy to fly into in the short space of time they are in the target zone or sights of a gunner. eg the .50 cals used in aircraft had a much higher rate than ground versions, the later Vickers K MG used by air gunners (and the SAS on their jeeps) had 1100rpm rof.
    That said this information is therefore slightly baffling, I have heard one other similar reference even if it is counter intuitive, though I do wonder if a confusion has arisen between the drum types used as a 97rd drum would take 9-10 secs to empty but who knows, without their sources it's hard to verify either way and you can believe whatever suits you best.
    The footnote reference is below:

    Thenault, The Story of the Lafayette Escadrille Told by its Commander, Captain
    Georges Thenault, 24, 41-42.

  38. #438

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    and a lot longer to change drums too Dave.
    It also stated it takes 4 seconds to replace the drum...

  39. #439

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    Quote Originally Posted by WWIflyingace View Post
    It also stated it takes 4 seconds to replace the drum...
    In flight, or on the ground in a hangar?

  40. #440

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    In flight, or on the ground in a hangar?
    While in combat; so that would imply in flight...

  41. #441

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    The books also state that the Lewis was prone to jam if fired too long; about 75% of the time so it was fired in shorter bursts...

  42. #442

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    Was reading On a Wing and a Prayer the other day: It would seem that the Lewis was prone to stoppages after 4 rounds were fired. Then it would clear, then it would jam. Took an armourer to send up a lewis minus the oil in the drum to figure it out. The oil freezed in the drum due to altitude, jammed the lewis. The situation was not found out on returning as the oil had un-froze on return. So lewis drums were then deployed with no oil in the drums.

    Amazing what you learn from first hand primary sources.

    Neil
    See you on the Dark Side......

  43. #443

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    It's also amazing what you can fail to pick up from Primary Sources Neil.
    I read the book, but did not retain that particular bit of information.
    It all boils down to age!
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  44. #444

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Was reading On a Wing and a Prayer the other day: It would seem that the Lewis was prone to stoppages after 4 rounds were fired. Then it would clear, then it would jam. Took an armourer to send up a lewis minus the oil in the drum to figure it out. The oil freezed in the drum due to altitude, jammed the lewis. The situation was not found out on returning as the oil had un-froze on return. So lewis drums were then deployed with no oil in the drums.

    Amazing what you learn from first hand primary sources.

    Neil
    Interesting... must have frustrated mechanics/armorers to no end. Darn things always worked when pulled off the kites...
    Last edited by fast.git; 01-12-2015 at 09:17. Reason: Armorers... *not* admirers. English... bah.

  45. #445

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    Nope, had me monocle in for that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    It's also amazing what you can fail to pick up from Primary Sources Neil.
    I read the book, but did not retain that particular bit of information.
    It all boils down to age!
    Rob.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  46. #446

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    Serendipity at its finest.


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  47. #447

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    Ah, yes, nothing finer than a large glass of Serendipity '85 to make one tidley.

    Neil

    Quote Originally Posted by tikkifriend View Post
    Serendipity at its finest.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  48. #448

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Ah, yes, nothing finer than a large glass of Serendipity '85 to make one tidley.

    Neil
    That must be "Hair of the Dog" then Neil.



    Click image for larger version. 

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    Sorry could not find a photo of the actual Serendipity Dog from Tom-tom in the sixties.
    This will have to do.

    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  49. #449

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    Fetch !!!!


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  50. #450

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