Ares Games
Results 1 to 31 of 31

Thread: Surprise in Games

  1. #1

    Default Surprise in Games

    I'm trying to introduce the element of surprise into my games. The Hun in the Sun and all that sort of thing. My thoughts, tentative as they are, have come up with this rather unsatisfactory artifact: the front line ran more or less North-South. Course from air field to front lines for both is on east-west axis. So in the morning, the British have the sun at their back when flying toward German lines, the Germans in their face when flying toward British lines; the reverse when returning from a mission, and the reverse again in the afternoon. If, as the result of an appropriate die roll, the side with the sun to their backs get to launch a surprise attack with an additional plane not originally on the table, then that is automatically in the sun, and at an altitude at least 1 peg higher than his highest potential victim. These conditions fulfilled, he may make a diving attack on any enemy plane, with no chance of return fire, at the time of his choosing.

    What I am looking for is something more general. For example, if a patrol is a certain distance (what distance?) above an enemy patrol, they might reasonably be undetected, and so able to launch just such a surprise attack as outline above, but starting from a greater altitude.

    If anyone has any thoughts on this, I would greatly appreciate hearing.

    Thanks, all.

  2. #2

    Default

    When doing random set ups/dogfights with no given scenario, I use the setup chart from the files & roll to see who is the attacker & who is the defender, defender places in the middle of the table, then attacker gets random set up somewhere in the defenders 3-9 o'clock based on the chart. Makes for a nice little "bouncing or being bounced" effect.




    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...do=file&id=197

    I know I have seen rules/set up's for more "hun in the sun" style, but I'll be blasted if I can remember where at the moment.

  3. #3

    Default

    Actually, Bruce, you have the situation the wrong way around. In the morning the Allies would be flying East towards the sun and the Germans would have it at their back.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonSylver View Post
    When doing random set ups/dogfights with no given scenario, I use the setup chart from the files & roll to see who is the attacker & who is the defender, defender places in the middle of the table, then attacker gets random set up somewhere in the defenders 3-9 o'clock based on the chart. Makes for a nice little "bouncing or being bounced" effect.




    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...do=file&id=197

    I know I have seen rules/set up's for more "hun in the sun" style, but I'll be blasted if I can remember where at the moment.
    Didn't know about this chart....thanks Rob

  5. #5

    Default

    A system I have used in the past is to have a designated hunter group who set up on a table edge, the hunted group have to "patrol" or fly the length of the table,they cannot react and must stay on course until the hunters either fire or come within a full ruler length .
    It seemed to work ok

  6. #6

    Default

    Colour me embarrassed - there's a reason why I teach history and not the sciences!

  7. #7

    Default

    You can also use some of Aerodrome Accesories clouds to bring the element of surprise into the game. I think there are some rules for clouds around here somewhere.

  8. #8

    Horse4261's Avatar
    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Troy
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Sorties Flown
    135
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brucewallace View Post
    What I am looking for is something more general. For example, if a patrol is a certain distance (what distance?) above an enemy patrol, they might reasonably be undetected, and so able to launch just such a surprise attack as outline above, but starting from a greater altitude.
    Just some thoughts on the subject I have gathered from a number of other sources.

    Out of the Sun: Any aircraft that is between the spotting aircraft and the Sun will be harder to see and all spotting is at ź the normal distance (Round Up). The ‘Sun’ Edge is two range markers on either side of the center point of the board edge section designated. The movement order is altered with all aircraft that are not ‘Out of the Sun’ moving first and hidden aircraft may replace their second and third maneuver card choices after enemy aircraft have placed their first maneuver cards.

    Spotting Distances: Attempting to spot an enemy aircraft is conducted at the beginning of each turn by rolling 2d6; success with 8+. (Additional +2 for any heading change of an enemy aircraft) Doped and painted fabric reflects sunlight, in effect becoming a 'signal mirror'. In game terms, the length of one Range Marker is 'fifty meters'.

    Conditions: Automatically Spotted & IFF
    Clear: 6 Range Markers
    Cloudy/Rain: 4 Range Markers
    Snow/Fog/Night: 3 Range Markers
    Out of the Sun: 2 Range Marker

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonSylver View Post
    When doing random set ups/dogfights with no given scenario, I use the setup chart from the files & roll to see who is the attacker & who is the defender, defender places in the middle of the table, then attacker gets random set up somewhere in the defenders 3-9 o'clock based on the chart. Makes for a nice little "bouncing or being bounced" effect.




    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...do=file&id=197

    I know I have seen rules/set up's for more "hun in the sun" style, but I'll be blasted if I can remember where at the moment.
    I use the above Random Set Up Table in many of my games (especially solo games) but, as written, does not really seem to reproduce the (admittedly unfair but historically supported) fact that many of the great aces attacked and shot down their opponents completely unawares. As written, a D6 is rolled, with 1-3 resulting in the set up distance being 2 range rulers apart and a roll of 4-6 being a set up distance of 3 range rulers. This places the attacker well out of weapons range and gives the defender time/space to react to the attack. To better reproduce the effect of being "bounced" and/or surprised by the "Hun in the sun", try one of these:

    A. Roll 1D6.
    1-2 = 1 range ruler distance.
    3-4 = 2 range rulers distance.
    5-6 = 3 range rulers.
    *Note: Aces may subtract '1' from their dice roll*

    B. Roll 1D6.
    1-3 = 1 range ruler distance.
    4-6 = 2 range rulers distance.

    C. Roll 1D6.
    1= 1/2 ruler distance
    2= 1 ruler distance
    3= 1 1/2 ruler distance
    4= 2 rulers distance
    5= 2 1/2 rulers distance
    6= 3 rulers distance

    2-3 rulers distance may be good for a general "fair fight" but does not adequately represent "surprise"

    Chris Maes

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Maes View Post
    I use the above Random Set Up Table in many of my games (especially solo games) but, as written, does not really seem to reproduce the (admittedly unfair but historically supported) fact that many of the great aces attacked and shot down their opponents completely unawares. As written, a D6 is rolled, with 1-3 resulting in the set up distance being 2 range rulers apart and a roll of 4-6 being a set up distance of 3 range rulers. This places the attacker well out of weapons range and gives the defender time/space to react to the attack. To better reproduce the effect of being "bounced" and/or surprised by the "Hun in the sun", try one of these:

    A. Roll 1D6.
    1-2 = 1 range ruler distance.
    3-4 = 2 range rulers distance.
    5-6 = 3 range rulers.
    *Note: Aces may subtract '1' from their dice roll*

    B. Roll 1D6.
    1-3 = 1 range ruler distance.
    4-6 = 2 range rulers distance.

    C. Roll 1D6.
    1= 1/2 ruler distance
    2= 1 ruler distance
    3= 1 1/2 ruler distance
    4= 2 rulers distance
    5= 2 1/2 rulers distance
    6= 3 rulers distance

    2-3 rulers distance may be good for a general "fair fight" but does not adequately represent "surprise"

    Chris Maes
    Nice! I will steal....er, take advantage... er, gladly borrow this idea and use it in my upcoming campaign.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brucewallace View Post
    ....What I am looking for is something more general. For example, if a patrol is a certain distance (what distance?) above an enemy patrol, they might reasonably be undetected, and so able to launch just such a surprise attack as outline above, but starting from a greater altitude. If anyone has any thoughts on this, I would greatly appreciate hearing..
    This is so hard to replicate well - sneaking up on someone ain't easy in this game - I've found that I have to be within 2 Rulers and have the target plane moving slowly (str/stall/str/stall) to bounce them on their six - head to head or from a front quarter works alot better as it's a closing attack. Everyone will have their own solution, the easiest is to start at the moment of the bounce perhaps?
    To answer your question Bruce the max difference in height you should work with is three, I think, so you can play the overdive and still be above the target; in range to shoot him up, also getting the aim bonus for firing down on him. Happy hunting

  12. #12

    Default

    Here's a thought of the top of my head if you want "sneaking up": Use only cards for the attacker(s) FACE DOWN. Place one "real" plane & 2 "dummies" per each plane. String these 3 out in a line, equadistant from each other (say 1/2 ruler?). Each time you maneuver, move all 3 cards UNTIL the defender gets into a position where the sun is no longer in his eyes/can see the attacker clearly or the attacker shoots, then flip & reveal the cards & place mini(s) on the "real" position.

    Would be a good mechanic for any type of "hidden movement" scenario (heavy fog maybe?)

    I like the sound of this. I'd be keen to try it out myself.

  13. #13

    Default

    Thanks for all your input so far, and please keep it coming. As a result of your ideas, and bearing in mind that in our games we like to have space for preliminary manoeuvring and so use a large table, I've come up with the following tentative ideas. It will be a couple of weeks before we can test them out, and when we do we may fiddle with the numbers, but here goes:

    Visibility
    At the beginning of each game, all planes will fly straight ahead at a fixed altitude. They will be unable to change direction or altitude until/unless they can see an enemy.

    To determine if one plane can see another, measure the distance and roll 1d10. Once sighting is established, it remains established until or unless it is broken, as for example if one plane disappears into a cloud.

    Distance between planes is measured from base to base on the table top. This distance will be increased if the two planes are at different altitudes, by 6" for each peg difference from higher plane to lower plane, and by 12" per peg difference from lower plane to higher plane (it is presumably easier to see a plane below you than above you).

    Distance Sighting on
    between planes
    6" or less automatic
    12" 1-9
    18" 1-8
    24" 1-7
    30" 1-6
    36" 1-5
    42" 1-4
    48" 1-3
    54" 1-2
    60" 1

    Modifications:
    Weather:
    Cloudy/Rain: add 3 to die roll
    Snow/Fog/Night: add 6 to die roll

    Enemy is coming out of the Sun: add 9 to the die roll
    Enemy is a multi-engine plane: deduct 3 from die roll
    Enemy is a balloon: deduct 6 from die roll

    Definition of "out of the sun":
    The sun is located at a fixed point on one side of the table. It is 1 foot wide. A plane is "in the sun" or "coming out of the sun" if any part of its base is within a triangle joining each end of the "sun with the nearest part of the proposed victim.

    Once an enemy is sighted, the location can be hand-signaled by the observing pilot to any wingmen within 6" of his base.

  14. #14

    Default

    When I play a "bounce" scenario, I use the file mentioned by Rob (random position). Distance is typically 1 & 1/2 sticks away, but I allow veterans and aces to modify both the roll and the distance. Vets can either change the roll ą1, or they may increase or decrease the distance by 1/2 stick. Aces can do the same, but they have 3 "points" with which to play. Rookies, in addition, give 1 "point" to their opponent's total (giving an ace 4!).

    It rewards experience, and might allow your ace to get in the first shot before the target can respond... and helps demonstrate the quick learning curve necessary for survival.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    When I play a "bounce" scenario, I use the file mentioned by Rob (random position). Distance is typically 1 & 1/2 sticks away, but I allow veterans and aces to modify both the roll and the distance. Vets can either change the roll ą1, or they may increase or decrease the distance by 1/2 stick. Aces can do the same, but they have 3 "points" with which to play. Rookies, in addition, give 1 "point" to their opponent's total (giving an ace 4!).

    It rewards experience, and might allow your ace to get in the first shot before the target can respond... and helps demonstrate the quick learning curve necessary for survival.
    I like it! Soon I will start my solo campaign but it will take a while for any of my pilots to reach ace status but will use this for sure.

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    I like it! Soon I will start my solo campaign but it will take a while for any of my pilots to reach ace status but will use this for sure.
    Despite the fact that I'm going to be hip deep in the WWII solo campaign, my intent is to begin an early war WWI solo campaign in the next couple of months... or, if I can dragoon a couple of locals into it, a co-op campaign!

  17. #17

    Default

    We finally got a chance to begin a game last night, using the outline I posted earlier. The game started with a cloud ceiling at 3 pegs (4500 feet) and extending up to 5 pegs (7500 feet). The Austrians had a low patrol, 3 Albatros D.III and an UFAG C.1 flying just below the clouds on a photo recon mission, and a high patrol over the cloud cover, made up of 3 Bergs flying at 9 pegs. The high patrol was using a second table, so that meant they only really needed to use 4 pegs. Countering them was an Italian low patrol, also at 3 pegs, of 3 Hanriot D.1s, and a high patrol of 3 Spads, at 10 pegs. The two tables were each 4 foot by 8 foot, with the forces starting at opposite ends. Since no manueuvring was permitted until the enemy was sighted, we measured the distance the planes could go in 3 straight cards, and began the game moving that distance. It took three of these combined turns for the upper patrols to sight each other simultaneously, by which time they were so close that only limited manoeuvring was possible. The Austrian low patrol sighted the Italians from a great distance, without being sighted, and so were able to get around them and take them at a disadvantage. In the ensuing furball, the Austrians and the Italians on low patrol lost one fighter each to the big bang, but of the other two Italians, one plane has only one damage point left before disaster, and the other pilot is wounded. Looks bad for Italy. On the high patrol, both sides approached each other head on and exchanged fire as they zoomed past each other. All three Italians took slight damage, as did one of the Austrians. One of the Italians was able to perform an Immelmann and came about in a perfect position right on one the Austrian's tail, and moreover, the Austrian plane had suffered rudder damage and couldn't turn, but alas, the Italian's guns jammed, and he had to break off combat. That was as far as we got, and it was exhausting work since each of us was flying 3 planes, and one playing 4, but we will continue next week, hopefully with more personnel. Anyway, the point is that the sighting rules seemed to work, at least to our satisfaction. Thanks to all who have replied to this thread, your thoughts have been very helpful.

  18. #18

    Default

    I just remembered who had a Spotting Chart that I wanted to reference: Neil!(Skafloc). I can't find it though. The post that featured it has been deleted. I'll PM him & see if he can repost.

  19. #19

    Default

    SPOTTING
    ROLL 1D6

    MOVE 1 6
    MOVE 2 5+
    MOVE 3 4+
    MOVE 4 3+
    MOVE 5 2+
    MOVE 6 AUTOMATIC

    BONUS

    GERMANS:
    ALLIED PLANES OVER GERMAN LINES -1 TO ROLL (This is taken from the historical perspective that the Germans used the intact French telephone system for sending messages)

    SUN:
    If you are playing with 'out of the sun' add 2 to the disadvantaged sides roll.
    (So basically start with a 6+ on turn 3 and decrease from there)

    Clouds:
    Block line of sight if no altitude rules.
    If playing altitude then determine bottom and top height of cloud and use respectively to determine line of sight.
    Last edited by Lt. S.Kafloc; 02-08-2014 at 10:15.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  20. #20

    Default

    Aha, just what I needed to finish off my solo plans.

    Prior to 'bouncing' does anyone allow their planes to weave or just fly straight? ie I set a point(s) which will be the flight path until something is spotted, but do you fly straight to it or allow a weave, left then right, while maintaining the overall direction?

  21. #21

    Default

    Well, as of now, and it's early days yet, we only allow them to fly a straight line without changing altitude, but with the proviso that given the table width, the defending force can fly a box pattern so as to avoid flying right off the table. I can see no reason, however, why a weave could not be permitted, as long as it is clearly specified in written orders before the game begins, to prevent a liberal application of fudge.

  22. #22

    Default

    Might try it for experienced pilots rather than all to reflect their learning over rookies

    On the principle of 'never fly straight straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area'

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollover View Post
    Aha, just what I needed to finish off my solo plans.

    Prior to 'bouncing' does anyone allow their planes to weave or just fly straight? ie I set a point(s) which will be the flight path until something is spotted, but do you fly straight to it or allow a weave, left then right, while maintaining the overall direction?
    Depends upon a couple of factors, namely aircraft type and mission. Artillery spotting kites tend to fly an elongated "figure-8" or "racetrack" pattern, whereas other recon or strike birds tend to fly as direct a route as possible. Single seat scouts, on the other hand, are allowed to pre-plot some "wiggle" into their straight line movement.

  24. #24

    Default

    I am pleased to find this thread, as I too have been pondering ways to introduce the element of surprise in WoG, to try to emulate the effect of being bounced by a previously-unseen enemy.

    My take works as follows, using only the contents of the WGF RAP box:

    - Game is to be played on a 140cm x 100cm play surface (i.e. two WoG mats butted together on their long edges)
    - Divide players into Attackers and Defenders.
    - Defender deploys fully within 1 ruler of the edge of one mat
    - Defender's goal is to get as many of their planes as possible off the far side of the mat (opposite their deployment zone)
    - Attacker does not deploy, they are "hunting" the Defender

    Prior to the Planning phase of each turn, both the Attacker and Defender draw a card from the B deck and then compare their cards' values.

    - If the cards drawn are equal value, the Attack and Defender draw again and re-compare.

    - If the Attacker's card is higher:
    -- The Attackers have successfully evaded detection by the Defender.
    -- The Defender plans their movement and proceeds with moving their aircraft across the play area, while the Attacker's planes remain undeployed for this turn (as they are continuing to stalk the Defender's aircraft).

    - If the Defender's card is higher:
    - The Defender has spotted the Attackers, and the Attacker deploys his/her plane(s) as follows:
    -- If spotted in Turn 1, then the Attacker's plane(s) are deployed 3 rulers away
    -- If spotted in Turn 2, then the Attacker's plane(s) are deployed 2 rulers away
    -- If spotted in Turn 3, then the Attacker's plane(s) are deployed 1 ruler away

    - If the Attacker's plane(s) have not been spotted by Turn 4:
    -- The Defender has been "bounced." The Attacker's plane(s) may be deployed as close as 1/2 ruler away directly behind the Defender's plane(s). Aim and Tailing rules apply if in use.

    If altitude rules are in use, the Attacker chooses the altitude at which to deploy his/her plane(s).

    Once the Attacker's plane(s) have been deployed per the above, gameplay proceeds per usual.

    Per the "never fly straight & level in a combat zone" maxim, each turn after the first, if the Defender's plane(s) executed at least 2 non-sideslip turn maneuvers in the preceding turn, they may add +1 to the result of their spotting card draw, simulating their pilots flying in a defensive manner while maintaining maximum vigilance and situational awareness.

    I've only played 1 game with these rules so far, but it definitely seems like it can give a fun twist to the traditional dogfight setup. Will report back with more findings after I've played a few more games with the rules.
    Last edited by surfimp; 01-20-2017 at 13:03.

  25. #25

    Default

    Sounds good!

    What happens if the 'B' cards drawn are tied?
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  26. #26

    Default

    Interesting idea. I'd always liked the idea of surprise engagements. There is a game I own, Tac Air, that has rules specifically for this. It involved one side having a hidden but predetermined path which is followed until detection or engagement. I need to look those up.

  27. #27

    Default

    I like this too and I am going to use this in my next game. My question is do you just put everyone on the same level?

  28. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Sounds good!

    What happens if the 'B' cards drawn are tied?
    Draw again!

  29. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skyking20 View Post
    I like this too and I am going to use this in my next game. My question is do you just put everyone on the same level?
    I mainly play without altitude rules, but if I was going to use them, I'd say that it would be the attacker's choice what altitude to deploy his/her planes at.

    Reason being is that the scenario is meant to provide a different type of challenge than the "neutral" engagement of a standard dogfight deployment. The attacker gets an advantage once his plane(s) are deployed, but the later that happens, the closer the defender is to escaping the far side of the board. On the flip side, the defender wants to get across the board quickly, but can reduce their odds of getting ambushed by flying a serpentine (yet slower) path.

    Interesting choices and trade-offs make for fun games, I think.

  30. #30

    Default

    Your ideas sound very good, Steve. I will be interested to hear how your further playtesting comes out. Most WW1 ambushes that I have read about come from planes descending from above, so may I suggest that, if you are using altitude rules, when the attacking planes are revealed they are one level higher than their targets.

  31. #31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Your ideas sound very good, Steve. I will be interested to hear how your further playtesting comes out. Most WW1 ambushes that I have read about come from planes descending from above, so may I suggest that, if you are using altitude rules, when the attacking planes are revealed they are one level higher than their targets.
    Certainly makes sense - but leaving it up to the attacker allows for attacking from below, in the case of a two-seater or bomber, or in the event the attacker's plane cannot climb to as high an altitude as the defender's.

    The attacker would, obviously, be selecting the altitude he/she felt was most advantageous, so leaving it to their discretion upon deployment seems most reasonable to me.



Similar Missions

  1. Well Done 12-7 Games!
    By gully_raker in forum Officer's Club
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 09-06-2012, 00:55
  2. Surprise at the San Francisco Airport!
    By Dwarflord22 in forum Officer's Club
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 06-24-2012, 10:03
  3. Imagine my surprise!!
    By STICK in forum WGF: General Discussions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-01-2011, 02:56
  4. Valentine Surprise
    By CappyTom in forum Officer's Club
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 02-15-2011, 17:25
  5. Using WoW with other games
    By afilter in forum Hobby Room
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-30-2010, 15:08

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •