Cundall’s Clock: Feasible House rule?

**Tom Cundall** · 07-19-2010 15:03

After sitting patiently for some minutes watching my arch enemy Herr Miles fannying about with his manoeuvre cards (it was our first game. We only had one aeroplane apiece for goodness’ sake) I started to wonder if anyone had actually tried putting a time limit on that phase of the turn. Not having any real experience of how the game plays with multiple pieces and optional/advanced rules I’d like to ask if anyone thinks it’s feasible to, say, have each player declare which ‘plane they’re picking manoeuvre cards for and then give them, what, 30 seconds to choose the three cards. After all players have manoeuvre cards for each of their pieces the game continues as normal. I could imagine that, when battle is well and truly joined and in the heat of a full on scrap, 30 seconds is not a long time to plot your next move especially when interacting multiple playing pieces are involved.

As a long time player of the original Space Hulk board game I always thought that, clever though it was, the stroke of genius which lifted it above merely being just a good game to being a great game was the timer rules. A limited amount of time adds to the pressure and, believe me, when the crap hits the fan, there is nothing better than watching your opponent slowly but surely losing his nerve and falling apart. Of course it cuts both ways but, if you can pull off a victory, oh the bragging rights... Anyway, I’m not saying that WoW needs timer rules or that it’s not already a great game I was just wondering aloud and wondering what more experienced players thoughts are on the subject.

**richard m schwab** · 07-19-2010 15:30

Tom!

We all know someone like that. I have gamed for years with some one who constantly touches and moves units. Now he forgets to plot his turns! I mainly play DOW and have a hard fast rule.
You make your move, slide your second turn over and plot your next move.
I discourage all firing until that is done. I have fallen victim to this, by turning left not right. It does keep the game moving. When you have four or more players, that is very important!

Rich

**Guntruck** · 07-20-2010 01:07

We have a "one minute" rule if we are using 2-3 aircraft apiece, or "30 second" rule if flying only one. Brought in after one pillock at our club took 7 minutes to plot the move for one plane!

He was used to playing Napoleonics, where you have a bit more time to think about things, and couldn't get it through his noggin that in aerial warfare things happen a bit faster in a shorter period.

**Rum Demon** · 07-20-2010 07:59

I haven't had to introduce a time limit on WoW as of yet. The Ne'er Do Wells are a casual crowd, so the trouble isn't one of "too much deliberation" but rather a problem of flapping gums. I tend to take the role of whip cracker in most any game I ever play, so am comfortable with telling folks to get on with it.

I like the idea of making quick moves. Faster moves means more sorties can be flown in a session, so it's win-win. New players, on the other hand, might be turned off by the idea of a timer ticking away, adding unwelcome stress to their game.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 07-20-2010 12:53

As I said in a previous thread somewhere when this came up, we tried a chess clock once. It got silly at the end with everyone trying to make there last six moves in about 12 seconds. I keep meaning to make a rack like the one for scrabble, so that you can access all your cards and not have to shuffle through the pack every turn. That should speed things up a bit. as the 30 second rule goes, maybe if a player did not get his cards down in time, he should be made to lay down the first three on top of his pack regardless on the next move. If an illegal move comes up he takes the consequences. This should help to expidiate his thought process.
Rob.

**Tom Cundall** · 07-20-2010 14:02

I was thinking more along the lines of:

1. Nominate an aircraft.
2. You have 30 seconds to pick 3 manoeuvre cards for that aircraft
3. Nominate your next aircraft
4. You have 30 seconds to pick 3 manoeuvre cards for that aircraft

When you have manoeuvre cards for all your aircraft in play commence the movement phase.

The time limit only pertains to the planning phase so movement, shooting & damage would not be on the clock. If you’ve only got 1 or 2 cards in your hand when the time limit is reached the missing cards would be either straight cards or cards randomly picked from the deck and the illegal manoeuvre rule would apply.

I like the idea of the added pressure that being up against the clock would bring. But, like I said, I’ve only played the game once (so far) so I have no idea how the mechanics multiple aeroplane scenarios really work or what exactly the planning phase sequence for multiple aeroplanes actually is. So I guess what I’m asking all you more experienced players is: would using a 30 second rule as described above actually work in real game? From what Steve and the rest of you chaps are telling me so far I see no reason why it wouldn’t work or be detrimental to the gameplay or the gaming experience although I do take Joe’s point about stressing people out. Fun first and foremost eh?.

**Oberst Hajj** · 07-23-2010 01:15

Up, this has been brought up in a few threads, one just a week or so ago. For casual play, I give everyone time to pick the right cards. A time limit could be interesting for a tourny though!

**Tom Cundall** · 07-23-2010 12:47

I’ve just played my second game of WoW but with two aeroplanes a side this time instead of one each. Obviously we didn’t play with a timer but one thing that became apparent straight away is that, at least for a novice pilot, 30 seconds per plane is nowhere near enough time to plot a move. It might be that inhaling all those burnt Castor Oil fumes has addled my brain but I was really struggling just to put the right cards down in front of the right aircraft. (And don’t even get me started on my manoeuvring vs. aeroplane orientation shambles.) Maybe I was having a particularly bad day.

I don’t know how it would be to someone with a decent amount of flying hours (& I’m guessing it still wouldn’t be that easy. Which is, kind of, the point) but, for now at least, the idea of playing with a timer is a bit of a non starter for me until I’ve had a lot more practice. Perhaps I can volunteer for latrine cleaning duties ‘till this shaking stops...

**Rum Demon** · 07-23-2010 15:14

Here's an idea, stolen from another great board game, Robo Rally:

Set up a timer for 30 seconds (or whatever). Don't start the timer until the 2nd to last guy has finished laying out his cards. The last man has only until the timer is out to pick his maneuvers. Any phases without a card at the end of the timer will result in straights.

In Robo Rally, other players randomly pick cards from your hand to fill in the blank maneuvers, but that game is about malfunctioning robots. I'd say a spaced out or indecisive pilot would just keep flying in a straight line.

**Gord** · 07-23-2010 15:24

Originally Posted by Col. Hajj

Up, this has been brought up in a few threads, one just a week or so ago. For casual play, I give everyone time to pick the right cards. A time limit could be interesting for a tourny though!

I agree with you. This could really make a tournament interesting.
In our group we usually limit it to One person - One plane and the game moves along at a pretty good pace.
Do a lot of you use multiple a/c per player?
Gord

**Tom Cundall** · 07-23-2010 16:54

That sounds interesting but I’m not sure that I’m fully understanding of how that would work Joe? Is the last guy always the last guy? If so, why does he always end up holding the ****** end of the stick? (Unintentional pun. Sorry.) Do not all the players choose manoeuvre cards at the same time and, in effect, play/place the cards simultaneously or are you using an ‘in house’ play sequence?

And just to pick up on Gord’s question: I assumed that the more familiar you become with the rules and the more adept you get at picking manoeuvre cards the more planes you will be able (and want) to control. So is that what actually happens out there in the world?

**rcboater** · 07-23-2010 21:36

An interesting idea-- sorta like using a chess clock.

When I play in pbem games, I can take days to figure out my next set of moves. It is definitely a different game when you do that-- more measured and thought out, less "seat of your pants".

I can understand the drag on a game when one player deliberates over his move forever. Maybe an easy way to implement a time limitation would be to steal one of those little timers from another game--- give somewhere between 60 and 120 seconds, for example, after the end of the previous turn. If you don't pick a move, you go straight.

Most of my games are with beginners, so I don't think this would work for me, but I'd certainly consider taking it for a test drive with more experienced players....

**Rum Demon** · 07-23-2010 22:54

Tom - All players plot their moves at the same time. One guy will finish first and twiddle his thumbs waiting for the others. Then someone else and so on until everyone's ready to move. The "last" guy is just whoever takes the longest to choose cards.

But yes, actually, it usually works out to be the same guy who would end up with that poopy stick end every time.

**Tom Cundall** · 07-24-2010 01:13

Ah, I get you now Joe. Sorry. (Did I mention I was having a bad day? Bad week???) I think, as Bill said, 60 or 120 seconds is a more sensible length of time for picking manoeuvre cards. My 30 second suggestion was, ahem, probably a little naive/bad judgement on my behalf.

**Oberst Hajj** · 07-24-2010 02:41

I have lots of flight hours and I still prefer to fly only one plane... but fly two from time to time if I have to.

**Tom Cundall** · 07-24-2010 02:49

That's a bit of an eye opener. I just assumed that all you more experienced guys commanded flights, nay squadrons, of aircraft with consummate ease. I think I may need more hours on Camels then. Just to find out how it really is.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 07-24-2010 06:55

Originally Posted by Col. Hajj

I have lots of flight hours and I still prefer to fly only one plane... but fly two from time to time if I have to.

The largest group of aircraft I have is a flight of three camels, and a flight of three Fokker Triplanes from Jasta 11. I have never flown more than this personally unless they are accompanying a two seater on a mission, and even here I prefer to fly two offensive aircraft whilst my son flies the two seater with the third fighter as an escort.
Rob.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 07-24-2010 07:16

Originally Posted by Rum Demon

Here's an idea, stolen from another great board game, Robo Rally:

Set up a timer for 30 seconds (or whatever). Don't start the timer until the 2nd to last guy has finished laying out his cards. The last man has only until the timer is out to pick his maneuvers. Any phases without a card at the end of the timer will result in straights.

In Robo Rally, other players randomly pick cards from your hand to fill in the blank maneuvers, but that game is about malfunctioning robots. I'd say a spaced out or indecisive pilot would just keep flying in a straight line.

I like this idea. We will try it out when we next have a game with one of those Old Slow Trot types involved.

Rob.

**Rum Demon** · 07-24-2010 12:19

I usually fly three at a time, but always at least two. Mainly because I get bored waiting for others to finish up. If it's a small group of focused players, or a one on one match I'll fly a single plane.

Not that I'm Mr Fast. I've fallen victim to the "last man" rule in Robo Rally many times over. It's a GREAT game, by the way, and I'd highly recommend it for anyone that likes WoW.

**Gord** · 07-24-2010 13:08

Originally Posted by Col. Hajj

I have lots of flight hours and I still prefer to fly only one plane... but fly two from time to time if I have to.

Yeah, I really prefer to stick to 1 player 1 aircraft. In fact that is the only way we have played WoW up to now. Sometimes the sides are a bit uneven but, oh well, so's life. LOL
In last nights games It was my Camel and another players DH4 on one side vs 2 DVII's and a DR.1. I suppose I could have played a second Camel but I decided not too since the telepathic communication between my two a/c would have given me an unfair advantage.

**Rum Demon** · 07-24-2010 13:46

I find with multiple planes that it's actually easier to split them up and have them go after separate quarries than it is to fly them in a cooperative "telepathic" formation. Though I understand the fairness equation.

**celticgriffon** · 01-08-2013 19:46

I think about 1 minute to plan all three phases of a turn would be a good middle. I am going to use this for my convention game this spring.

Michael

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 01-09-2013 01:18

When we tried the clock, we found everyone got fixated on the time and it took the enjoyment out of the game so we did not do it again.
Rob.

**Doug** · 01-09-2013 03:48

I have not had any games with any one being to slow to plan their moves as everybody wants to get on with the game! If someone is slow they are told in no uncertain terms to get a bloody move on. No toilet or smoke breaks till the game is over

**grumpybear** · 01-09-2013 03:52

We are normaly to busy yaking to worry about time.

**sbutton** · 01-09-2013 03:52

Personally I think a clock system such as 30 seconds for the last man to finish is a good way to go (will definitely give a go at my next sortie).
I too have played Space Hulk and Blood Bowl which are both GW games with a time element and I find the timer adds to the "flow" and "feel" of the game in so much as moves should be more instinctive than deliberated in depth.

I would also use straight maneuvers to make up for any unplayed cards, this is also a house rule for us when an illegal maneuver is played or if right or left rudder damage is received during a turn and a player has planned a similar turn, thus allowing the damage effect to take place immediately.

**fast.git** · 01-09-2013 04:32

Originally Posted by sbutton

I would also use straight maneuvers to make up for any unplayed cards, this is also a house rule for us when an illegal maneuver is played or if right or left rudder damage is received during a turn and a player has planned a similar turn, thus allowing the damage effect to take place immediately.

I like this idea... I will suggest it to my group!

**HTRAINo** · 01-12-2013 08:32

I like to take my time, and plan as carefully as possible. I get 'tutted' at, unless i'm planning my two seaters.

Once I get those into the 'spiral of doom' there's no stopping them, and takes seconds to plan. An Se5a on the other hand, is a completely different story.
The concept of added pressure tends to naturally derive from other players saying things like "get on with it!" and "i'm done... tut! what's taking you so long?".

I like the idea of making someone make split decisions under pressure, and it would make a good house rule.

**AlgyLacey** · 01-12-2013 08:45

Originally Posted by Tom Cundall

That's a bit of an eye opener. I just assumed that all you more experienced guys commanded flights, nay squadrons, of aircraft with consummate ease. I think I may need more hours on Camels then. Just to find out how it really is.

Even Biggles can only fly one crate at a time. Multiship flights are doable (up to about three for me) but its all about me and the minds eye, ten thousand feet down to the tabletop, slipstream trying to rip my goggles off and all that.

Fly two planes its a game - fly one and its me up there dicing for the iron cross or the wooden one

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 01-12-2013 09:02

Originally Posted by sbutton

Personally I think a clock system such as 30 seconds for the last man to finish is a good way to go (will definitely give a go at my next sortie).
I too have played Space Hulk and Blood Bowl which are both GW games with a time element and I find the timer adds to the "flow" and "feel" of the game in so much as moves should be more instinctive than deliberated in depth.

I would also use straight maneuvers to make up for any unplayed cards, this is also a house rule for us when an illegal maneuver is played or if right or left rudder damage is received during a turn and a player has planned a similar turn, thus allowing the damage effect to take place immediately.

See my post 23 Steve.
Rob.

**sbutton** · 01-14-2013 15:23

Rob,

I read your post which prompted my response.

I think a time limit can introduce a new "exciting" element to the game making it "feel" closer to a real time event rather than a planned strategy game i.e. the pace is faster and you can and will make mistakes through being rushed.

However, all players have to agree thats how they want to play. Referring back to my original post I mentioned Blood Bowl a GW Fantasy Football game.. The timer is essential as far as I am concerned to make the game flow and get the adrenalin going (also makes you concentrate on doing whats important first!) but if I play with young people or novices I do not inflict the timer on them as they need to learn the game first and foremost.

At the end of the day whatever you play its supposed to be enjoyable so my opinion is you should only add elements if it enhances the enjoyment for everyone.

Its one of the things I like about WoW/WoG is that its a simple quick system that is great as it is straight out of the box, but also lends itself to "house ruling" very well.

**HTRAINo** · 01-15-2013 05:19

Originally Posted by sbutton

At the end of the day whatever you play its supposed to be enjoyable so my opinion is you should only add elements if it enhances the enjoyment for everyone.

Its one of the things I like about WoW/WoG is that its a simple quick system that is great as it is straight out of the box, but also lends itself to "house ruling" very well.

A good point, well presented

Although it would do me no favours, i'm sure it would make for an interesting game!